Author Topic: What is Anti-Annihilation Energy?  (Read 2946 times)

Thought

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What is Anti-Annihilation Energy?
« on: May 19, 2008, 04:46:57 pm »
In Chronopolis, Anti-Annihilation Energy is at the heart of the Counter-Time Experiment and it is, presumably, what in part causes (or allows to happen) the Time Trash and the black gate thingy. However, I haven't really seen a discussion on what is Anti-Annihilation Energy (and how it relates to the Frozen Flame).

On the surface it seems to have a technobabble-y name; "Anti-Annihilation." That might just mean "creationary" energy. Yet, if it were just "annihilation energy," I think most people would take it to mean that it destroys everything. If we switched that, would anti-annihilation energy create everything? Is the Frozen Flame some sort of Genesis Device (and Lavos really just Spock; if so, they went a bit overboard with the pointy ears and eyebrows)?

The Frozen Flame is also responsible for Human Evolution, so might this "Anti-Annihilation energy" be the means of that effect?

From a poetic standpoint, change could be seen as constant annihilation; nothing is ever the same from one moment to the next. Anti-Annihilation Energy might, then, make things permanent ("a fixed point in time and space ... a fact."). Chronopolis certainly seems to be doing quite well over 10,000ish years. Even how it influenced human evolution; it gave humans the power to not adapt but to remain constant while forcing the planet to adapt to them.

What is Anti-Annihilation Energy? That is the question that drives me, Neo.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2008, 05:00:48 pm by Thought »

FaustWolf

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Re: What is Anti-Annihilation Energy?
« Reply #1 on: May 19, 2008, 05:03:00 pm »
Whoa -- Chrono Trigger II: The Wrath of Kato? Does the pointy-eared Magus stop Crono's starship from going into nuclear meltdown?

If it were just "annihilation energy," I would suspect it had something to do with the collision of matter and antimatter. But since it's anti annihilation, if it were interpreted in the reverse in real physics terms, it would have to involve the creation of matter and antimatter from energy, thus requiring the input of energy and resulting in a matter + antimatter output. However, I'm probably mistakenly conflating the term "energy" with the subatomic particles that carry said energy, so the nature of the annihilation process may simply change one type of subatomic particle into another type, or something.

EDIT: Ah, the term appears to be used in a 1974 scientific abstract here:
http://www.springerlink.com/content/t955248225257144/

However, one must pay for access. It might be worth our while to search for a free copy of the article. Oh shoot, it might be in Dutch though.  :D
« Last Edit: May 19, 2008, 05:12:47 pm by FaustWolf »

ZeaLitY

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Re: What is Anti-Annihilation Energy?
« Reply #2 on: May 19, 2008, 05:16:27 pm »
Farfetched and out of line with the Time Crash, but that made me think of anti-annihilation energy somehow stopping the destruction or shunting of past timelines to the Darkness Beyond Time when history is changed. The crazy application is that perhaps this played a role in giving birth to Home World as a separate dimension, when Kid's time-change should have merely shunted Another World's 1010-1020 A.D. history to the DBT with no other effects. So, tenuously, perhaps the Time Crash's anti-annihilation energy was directed towards that point in time for some reason (ah, we're in left field here), or, the Frozen Flame (which seems to be a source or conduit of this energy) was used in 1010 A.D. to create Home World from Kid's change, perhaps activated deep within FATE as part of Project Kid.

To justify that anti-annihilation energy reverses that timeline-shunting effect, well, perhaps the Counter-Time Experiment needed that so Chronopolis wouldn't accidentally overwrite history in the past and negate itself out of existence. Although really, creating a new dimension isn't exactly "controlling time", since they'd be separated from their achievements.

Bah, that's all too speculative.

V_Translanka

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Re: What is Anti-Annihilation Energy?
« Reply #3 on: May 20, 2008, 04:53:51 am »
When I hear it I think of some kind of energy/force field? Maybe the heart of experiment involved the control or stabilization of whatever (the FF?) inside such a field and that it fuct up and thus Time Crash...? Does that make sense?

Thought

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Re: What is Anti-Annihilation Energy?
« Reply #4 on: May 20, 2008, 05:18:23 pm »
Alas, no luck on my part finding a public copy of that Article, Faust.

Zeality, to expand on that, at the time the dimensions split, Serge had already come in contact with the Frozen Flame and, presumably, been subject to this "anti-annihilation" energy. This might provide a conduit through which Anti-Annihilation energy could have effected the dimensional split.

I do agree, this is all quite speculative, but we still might be able to ascertain a vague direction of meaning. And we might accidentally stumble onto something more solid.

When I hear it I think of some kind of energy/force field? Maybe the heart of experiment involved the control or stabilization of whatever (the FF?) inside such a field and that it fuct up and thus Time Crash...? Does that make sense?

Unfortunately, no. Not in the "that is a nonsensical idea" sort of way, mind you, but in the "what is he trying to say?" sort of way.

Are you saying that Anti-Annihilation energy is what was used to control the FF? Or that the FF and AA Energy (it's a 12-step power source) was used to control the time effects that went all wacky and turned the dimensions into a "big ball of wibbly-wobbly... timey-wimey... stuff"?


Considering the matter further, I think that we may actually see several instances of Anti-Annihilation energy (depending on if we identify this as being "Lavos's energy")

1. Lavos' ability to fly through space and land on earth undamaged
2. The FF's effect on human evolution
3. The power of Zeal
4. Lavos' "Destruction rains from the heavens!" like attack that destroys Zeal and the Future
5. The Time Portal in Magus' Castle
6. The Time Crash
7. The splitting of the Dragon God
8. The sealing of the Dragon Gods
9. The Healing of Serge
10. The realization of wishes (per the General Kid ending).
11. Possibly the melding of Lavos and Schala
12. Dragging Chronopolis into the past
13. Destroying Crono
14. Possibly creating spawn
15. Possibly gathering genetic information
16. Changing the R. Knife into the Masamune.
17. Creating the Dreamspecies
18. Maybe the creation of the Pocket Dimension

I am fairly sure I am missing some instances too. All in all, that is a fair number of examples that we might be able to work with to determine what Anti-Annihilation energy is.

Curiously, it seems like an impressively creative force.

BROJ

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Re: What is Anti-Annihilation Energy?
« Reply #5 on: May 21, 2008, 12:10:17 am »
Honestly, to think that this Anti-Annihilation Energy is somehow exclusive to, or created by, Lavos, or his kind if you believe he is one of multiple incarnations, is both pretentious and highly illogical. As if an anomaly occurs once in a system it must them be concluded that the probability of it happening again, given enough time, is logically likely.
Having said that, I postulate that AAE is an elastic(as in potential energy), 'anti-break'(anti-tear) reaction of the fifth dimension(Time Error) as a result of being strained to a 'critical' value(i.e. one cannot be a Time Error Bastard) and then releasing it's contained energy causing severe dimensional shifts. In other words, I theorize that Chronopolis was 'shot' back in time and probably aimed by Lavos(see my post in Thoughts on the Time Crash).
« Last Edit: May 21, 2008, 12:44:02 am by BROJ »

Thought

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Re: What is Anti-Annihilation Energy?
« Reply #6 on: May 21, 2008, 12:37:14 pm »
Honestly, to think that this Anti-Annihilation Energy is somehow exclusive to, or created by, Lavos, or his kind if you believe he is one of multiple incarnations, is both pretentious and highly illogical.

Exclusive to? No. But associated with:

Quote from: Ghost
   During their simulation,
   FATE guaranteed that they
   would be able to use the
   Flame as an up-link to
   extract the anti-annihilation
   energy associated with it.
   Don't worry, it'll be a success.

Given that the Frozen Flame represents Lavos' power, it is hardly illogical to claim such an association. Lavos' connection to that power, however, is unknown. Perhaps this is just the overflow of the Entity's energy that he absorbed, perhaps this is a by product of Lavos merging with Schala, perhaps this is Lavos' own energy (he is an energy source, after all, as displayed in Zeal).

Anti-Annihilation Energy might be a naturally occurring phenomenon, but if it is it is one that is not plentiful on Earth. I suspect that at the best it is analogous to anti-matter; it probably (or should) exists in plenty out in the universe somewhere, but to work with in on earth requires that scientists create it themselves (and that is neither an easy or cheap process). Imagine, then, if Real World Scientists found a naturally occurring source of antimatter on earth (that, somehow, wasn't obliterating the earth); that would be an incredibly important artifact. In turn, Anti-Annihilation Energy might exist in the universe, Chronopolis scientists might even be able to replicate it in extreme circumstances, but the Frozen Flame (and thus, in turn, Lavos) represents a unique means of studying it.

But returning to analysis of AAE:

AAE seems to have a notable effect on time (I know, that is a bit of a "dur" statement"). It's "counter-time" effect (that is another topic: what is counter-time?) seems to have caused the Time Crash, or at least exposed it to beings capable of perceiving things outside of the normal flow of time (aka, Lavos). There may be other instances of this effect (on a significantly smaller scale).

If AAE is associated with Lavos and not just the Frozen flame, then it is possible that AAE is also responsible for the start of Chrono Trigger. Marle's pendant is unique in several ways, including its time with Schala, during which it had apparently absorbed a lot of Lavos' energy (which may be AAE, but that is itself debatable). The Pendant, in turn, was responsible for creating/opening that first timegate. Given that there is no way Lucca could have duplicated the dreamstone component of the pendant (lacking dreamstone), it may in turn be that the gatekey utilizes AAE to open gates (albeit on an incredibly microscopic scale).

Then there is the end of the Battle with Magus. Lavos was summoned and it may be that the associated AAE opened a crazy time gate that did not function like other time gates (violated the 3 passenger limit, sent them to different time zones, etc). This seems particularly similar to the Time Crash, but on a drastically reduced scale.

However, to be fair, all of this assumes that Lavos' energy is the same as AAE energy. It may well be that Lavos has several different types of energy at his disposal, or even that AAE is a side effect of something else completely (like Lavos being in the DBT when the Frozen Flame is associated with AAE).

BROJ

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Re: What is Anti-Annihilation Energy?
« Reply #7 on: May 21, 2008, 08:14:14 pm »
Alright, I'll admit what I said before was a little complex, so I'll simplify by providing an alternative explanation:
What I think AAE is; it is basically the effect of a temporary 'white hole' created by an extreme concentration of the Frozen  Flame's energy. What does this mean? Consider how when enough matter congregates in a single area it forms a 'black hole'(singularity) and derivatively an event horizon; what I am theorizing is that the AAE is actually an anti-event horizon and anti-singularity, in that it 'moves'(hence elastic), visibly, an area of space-time instead of holding it in a singularity.



EDIT: After studying Lavos's powers and applying my theory, Lavos tends to follow the 'Heaven' archetype in elemental control. Follow my reasoning(I'm going to use Thought's examples):

1. Lavos' ability to fly through space and land on earth undamaged
Flux: uses this component to generate an accurate travel arc through space.

2. The FF's effect on human evolution
Judgement: uses this component to create an aura of 'creation' radiation around 'himself' and the FF.

3. The power of Zeal
See previous.

4. Lavos' "Destruction rains from the heavens!" like attack that destroys Zeal and the Future
Judgement: uses this component to create a sort of Creation Cannon (see Creation Cannon from Star Ocean: TtEoT; see in action. And if I'm going to mention that I *have* to link this one. BTW the attack that the 'dragon' uses at the end is rather reminiscent of Shadow(Chaotic) magic) effect used to ironically annihilate something.

5. The Time Portal in Magus' Castle
Not sure this was completely Lavos's fault--personally I feel this was due to Magus's Shadow(Chaos) magic breaking the dimensional membrane.

6. The Time Crash
I still hold that this was a dimensional reaction.

7. The splitting of the Dragon God
That was FATE 'using' the FF's powers to achieve its own ends. But I would say that the end effect is due to the Field component separating and containing the Dragon God in multiple components.

8. The sealing of the Dragon Gods
See previous.

9. The Healing of Serge
Judgement: uses this component to facilitate the effect of revival.

10. The realization of wishes (per the General Kid ending).
Judgement: uses this component to facilitate the creation or annihilation of an entity or scenario.

11. Possibly the melding of Lavos and Schala
ehh... possibly uses Seal component to 'bind' and contain the two entities into one.

12. Dragging Chronopolis into the past
I say that the FF created the 'extreme' amount of creation energy, using the Judgement component, causing a Time Error 'white hole', launching Chronopolis back in time.

13. Destroying Crono
See 4.

14. Possibly creating spawn
See my Lavos--Cell analogy.

15. Possibly gathering genetic information
See my Lavos--Cell analogy.

16. Changing the R. Knife into the Masamune.
Judgment: uses this component to generate 'creation' radiation which is then absorbed by the Red Knife creating the Masamune.

17. Creating the Dreamspecies
Wasn't that Balthasar's or Melchior's doing?

18. Maybe the creation of the Pocket Dimension
Field: uses this component to create an isolated field of discontiguous space.
« Last Edit: May 23, 2008, 02:56:54 pm by BROJ »

Thought

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Re: What is Anti-Annihilation Energy?
« Reply #8 on: October 01, 2009, 11:38:09 am »
Thanks to Z’s mega-update of the analysis portions of the encyclopedia, I noticed a connecting theme over the past year that relates to Anti-Annihilation Energy.

Specifically, there was a question regarding Lavos and Immortality (http://www.chronocompendium.com/Forums/index.php/topic,6751.0.html), with one theory supposing that Queen Zeal obtained a degree of immortality by Lavos stopping the passage of time, for her at least. This is very similar to some of the supposed effects of AAE: specifically, that is creates something that is not changing due to the passage of time but rather something that is constant.

We may have seen the fundamental goal of the Counter Time Experiment in Chrono Trigger. That is, the Ocean Palace/Black Omen. While Zeal is revealed to be a very advanced civilization, it seems unlikely that the Black Omen could survive exposed to the elements for 14,300 years. The Chief at Chronopolis states that the end-result of the experiment would make Chronopolis a “presence” in time, “much like god.” The Black Omen certainly seems to be a presence, existing in the world but being unaffected by it and largely unchanging.

Thus, the Black Omen and Chronopolis may be experiencing very similar phenomenon. And if AAE is responsible for Chronopolis’ immortal presence in the world, and if the Black Omen has that same kind of immortal presence, then it would seem like we can identify Queen Zeal’s immortality likewise as being an unchanging “presence.”

This is also a thematically appealing prospect. Compare it with Ayla’s words:

Quote from: Ayla
Ayla fight while alive!
Win and live. Lose and die.
Rule of life.
No change rule.

Ayla, being of a non-Lavos-influenced stock, could be said to be representing the Entity/Planet’s position. Queen Zeal, using Lavos’ power, is violating this “rule of life.” Likewise, the Black Omen and Chronopolis seem to be violating this rule as well by becoming presences outside of the battle of life (take that, Lion King).

Zeal’s quest for immortality, Queen Zeal’s own desires, the Black Omen, and Chronopolis all thus might be tied into Anti-Annihilation Energy and AAE to Lavos in terms of its counter-entity effects.

For reference, here is the Chronopolis Chief’s full quote:

Quote from: Chief
Perhaps what we are
doing is wrong?
If this experiment succeeds,
we will be able to control time.
We will have complete control over
history and, in a sense, become
a presence, much like god...
If so, what meaning is there
to the history of mankind?
But it's too late, now...
We can't afford to fail
in this experiment.
If, for some reason, anything
goes wrong, the anti-annihilation
energy will probably overwhelm us.
Who knows what the
consequences may be?

GenesisOne

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Re: What is Anti-Annihilation Energy?
« Reply #9 on: October 02, 2009, 05:29:21 pm »

Perhaps, except one can't actually stop the passage of time.  They can slow it down to a trickle imperceivable to the naked eye, but stopping time is pretty much impossible.

It would require one to equal or exceed the speed of light (both of which is impossible even for the likes of Lavos).  If he was, then his collision of the planet would've resulted in the planet's total destruction.

I don't what AAE is, but I do know it isn't.

It isn't Elastic Energy because, by definition, it comes from something which causes or is released by the elastic distortion of a solid or a fluid.  Time is a massless and spaceless dimension, and therefore cannot possibly be AAE.  The gate at Magus' castle, for all I know, could be the result of injecting too much dark matter (which I believe to be a component of shadow magic.  How else would you be able to create a miniature black hole which can draw enemies into another dimension never to be seen?)

It might not be what the FF is made of.  More on this theory of mine at another time.

KebreI

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Re: What is Anti-Annihilation Energy?
« Reply #10 on: October 02, 2009, 05:33:39 pm »
Isn't that what the time egg did to save Crono? Stop time.

Thought

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Re: What is Anti-Annihilation Energy?
« Reply #11 on: October 02, 2009, 06:19:04 pm »
Perhaps, except one can't actually stop the passage of time.  They can slow it down to a trickle imperceivable to the naked eye, but stopping time is pretty much impossible.

Curses, if only this was a video game where the laws of real-world physics might not necessarily apply. Then crazy things, like time travel, might be possible! ;)

But yes, it doesn't "stop time" in one sense of the word. If time was truly stopped, movement wouldn't be possible. But it might be said to be stopping the clock. Time results in change, AAE seems to allow for non-change to be a viable option.

Time is a massless and spaceless dimension, and therefore cannot possibly be AAE.

No one claimed that AAE is time, rather quite the opposite; AAE might be able to allow something to exist outside the normal flow of time.

ZealKnight

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Re: What is Anti-Annihilation Energy?
« Reply #12 on: October 03, 2009, 07:33:03 pm »
You know what's interesting? Each game refers to doing something with the time stream. Crossing into different ones, time traveling, and we have Chrono Brake. Like, stopping time? Perhaps you're right thought, it makes sense. Maybe this was going to be part of the next one.

GenesisOne

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Re: What is Anti-Annihilation Energy?
« Reply #13 on: October 05, 2009, 04:43:39 pm »
Okay.  I did my research on the series and real-life physics, and here's what I came up with.

The Anti-Annihilation Energy within the FF consists of... (ready for this?)  Cosmic String.

*** :shock: followed by :?: ***   Allow me to explain.

Such a substance is able to undergo a phase change (i.e. solid to liquid to plasma to gas) in various regions of space and time without being “annihilated”. This can include the Darkness Beyond Time.  This results in condensations of energy density at the boundaries between regions, like cracks that form when water turns into ice (a simple phase change).  Such changes that produce cosmic string have been present since the origins of the universe.

Cosmic String is extremely thin, has light density (due to light waves and static forces surrounding the substance; otherwise it would weigh more than the planet), and can be closed off into a loop of energy which oscillates near the speed of light.  Such loops have the kinetic energy to clump matter together to create cluster galaxies. Seeing how Lavos was travelling across the universe at such speeds, it could have easily picked up such a substance along the way before crashing in 65000000 B.C.

Here’s my scenario. The scientists of Zeal were able to harness the energy within that loop of string (the FF), bring it to critical mass, and lower its energy conversion factor to nearly zero to produce all their energy needs via the Mammon Machine (a sort of extraction device for the FF).  When Zeal was destroyed and Chronopolis came about, Belthasar simply used the same method the Zealian scientists used and picked up where they left off.  When the FF got flung back in time due to the Time Crash, its energy state was reverted to where it was after Zeal was destroyed.  This explains how it still retains its energy for future use (i.e. Prometheus Circuit, Terra Tower, etc.)

Such a theory can work because a) it retains the continuity of the series, b) it accounts for its multiple uses (extracting what appear to be infinite amounts of energy) across the timelines, and c) its real-life existence stands up to the observational evidence.

What do you think?  Sounds reasonable?  Got holes in it?  RSVP! :D
« Last Edit: October 11, 2009, 05:56:42 pm by GenesisOne »

GenesisOne

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Re: What is Anti-Annihilation Energy?
« Reply #14 on: October 12, 2009, 03:44:46 pm »

Darn...

I thought at least that would turn some heads.

What's a guy gotta do for some peer-review?