Author Topic: Porre and Guardia: An Exhaustive and Exhausting Analysis  (Read 4114 times)

Boo the Gentleman Caller

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Re: Porre and Guardia: An Exhaustive and Exhausting Analysis
« Reply #15 on: June 02, 2008, 09:32:33 pm »
Somewhere in the game they said that one could only enter/exit El Nido if the weather conditions were correct (I think it had something to do with the tides).

radicalblues

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Re: Porre and Guardia: An Exhaustive and Exhausting Analysis
« Reply #16 on: June 03, 2008, 01:42:29 pm »
FaustWolf: While General Viper was born in El Nido, the Viper Clan itself comes from Zenan Mainland, I guess that people like Norris, Viper, and such, do not believe in the Goddess of Fate, don't use the Records of Fate, and don't get controled by them.

Isn't it just Chronopolis descendants who get controlled by FATE? The Viper Clan is an invasor to the land, and thus out of FATE's control.

Boo the Gentleman Caller

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Re: Porre and Guardia: An Exhaustive and Exhausting Analysis
« Reply #17 on: June 03, 2008, 01:44:05 pm »
I always assumed General Viper WAS from El Nido - and that he was just a General for the Porre military.  Similar to older European military views - although we was from the "small island chain" of El Nido, he was granted a position in the Porre military (mostly, probably for regional alliances).

FaustWolf

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Re: Porre and Guardia: An Exhaustive and Exhausting Analysis
« Reply #18 on: June 03, 2008, 02:26:29 pm »
Interesting, I hadn't taken into consideration how cultural factors might play into FATE's control over El Nido's inhabitants. I distinctly remember someone saying that travel to/from the islands depended on the weather or ocean currents as Boo earlier reported, and am now wondering who said it exactly -- was it someone in Arni or Guldove (more likely to engage in Goddess worship, perhaps, and be controlled) or someone in Termina? It might provide circumstantial evidence one way or the other.

Zaulche

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Re: Porre and Guardia: An Exhaustive and Exhausting Analysis
« Reply #19 on: June 03, 2008, 02:49:53 pm »
The following quote is from the script on the compendium. It is mentioned by Doc shortly after Kid is poisoned and the group is trying to think of where to find Hydra humor and it is mentioned that there is some on the mainland.

Quote from: Doc
   ...That is not possible.
   The currents of El Nido are
   extremely dangerous, this
   time of year.
   It is highly improbable
   to cross the sea unless you
   are on a large vessel...

Something else I found interesting is a quote from Steena about settlers coming to El Nido form the mainland quite some time ago.

Quote from: Steena
   But several hundred years have
   passed since settlers from the
   mainland came to El Nido.
   The only Dragons that can
   be seen today are the
   White and Black Dragons.
   No one knows the location
   of the other Dragon Gods...

Also, in the character bio it states that Doc, Skelly, Greco, Radius Zappa, Lucia, Marcy, and Guile all originated on the Zenan mainland. This would seem to support the idea that there is a lot more travel between the mainland and El Nido than I originally though.

Thought

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Re: Porre and Guardia: An Exhaustive and Exhausting Analysis
« Reply #20 on: June 03, 2008, 03:09:46 pm »
Sorry I'm a little late to the discussion, but I've been pondering the various points.

First, I think it might be beneficial to note that there is a difference between FATE keeping El Nido (and in turn, Elements, Dragonian Technology, and any Chronopolis technology that might be laying around) from influencing the timeline and Fate keeping El Nidonites cooped up on the archipelago. One does not necessitate the other; indeed, it is entirely possible that keeping the El Nidonites cooped up would have been counter-productive for FATE. If word gets around that no one leaves El Nido, ever... well that attracts attention. Consider the real-world Bermuda Triangle: it is no different than any other patch of sea, but it has a reputation, so people specifically visit it for that reason. If FATE never let anyone leave, it might affect the timeline more than if it did let people leave.

The question then is, to what extent might FATE control the events once outside El Nido. It seems like it would have been simple enough for FATE to preprogram General Viper and the others to keep their elements a secret (or, even if not a secret, in some way to prevent the mainlanders from getting too interested). Of course, FATE would have also had the power to convince the Acacia dragoons just not to take elements; the impression I got from the Four Divas was that it was their innate fighting prowess, not their use of elements, that made them famous.

Random aside... if we are to assume that elements might have been exported to the mainland, might not at least one or two Records of Fate been exported as well? It not, why not? But if so, wouldn't that possibly extend FATE's influence (and in turn, extend FATE's abilities to prevent changes to the timeline)? Could FATE then be controlling not just the El Nidonites but important figures on the mainland (as presumably owning a Record of Fate would require wealth and wealth usually translates into power)?

Radical Blues, while Viper and the others might not use the Records of Fate, it should be noted that such devices exist inside Viper Mansion, implying that some of the Acacia Dragoons do, in fact, use them. Given that they've been in the area around 100 years, one would also assume some degree of intermarriage as well. I suppose it is a question of how much the culture of the area influenced them. Perhaps I am wrong, but it would seem like using a RoF (not to be confused with ROUS's) is enough to get one "hooked," so even a random "sampling of the local flavor" would have drawn the Acacia Dragoons into FATE's computery clutches.

VincentGAU8

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Re: Porre and Guardia: An Exhaustive and Exhausting Analysis
« Reply #21 on: June 18, 2008, 11:59:06 pm »
I have to agree that Fate's keeping El Nido a total secret is counter-productive. But then, elements would have to be eventually exported out to the mainland, and if the Records were also exported, then might have Fate had a hand in Guardia's fall? Fate was clearly from outside the normal time.. Although, it would seem that Fate would not have any motive for doing so..

And another point: the people of El Nido only used small water craft to do their island hopping, such as Korcha's boat. if that were so, then Fate does not need to enforce a travel ban, since the currents could only be passed by large ships which could only have come from Porre. Geographical limits would work to Fate's favor in keeping her citizens safe.
« Last Edit: June 19, 2008, 12:31:18 am by VincentGAU8 »

Thought

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Re: Porre and Guardia: An Exhaustive and Exhausting Analysis
« Reply #22 on: June 25, 2008, 02:56:44 pm »
Something just occured to me that I will probably think about more and try to tie into this article:

The Black Omen may be responsible for (or at least influenced) the Rise of Porre. While it is generally assumed that the Black Omen was smashed in 12000 BC and Lavos was killed, it is possible that Armagedon Branch is more accurate and so the BO would still be present in 1000 AD. I certainly have to think on this one more.

And as an FYI, I am still working on updating the article with a discussion on technology (and now a more indepth discussion of FATE and how confined el nidonites are). Unfortunately I've misplaced the file I was working on recently, so I am starting over.

Boo the Gentleman Caller

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Re: Porre and Guardia: An Exhaustive and Exhausting Analysis
« Reply #23 on: June 25, 2008, 08:22:04 pm »
I look forward to reading it, Thought.  Especially after your recently published Frozen Flame research.

VincentGAU8

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Re: Porre and Guardia: An Exhaustive and Exhausting Analysis
« Reply #24 on: June 25, 2008, 10:46:07 pm »
I look forward to reading it, Thought.  Especially after your recently published Frozen Flame research.

Well, me too. But it seems unlikely to me that the BO is somehow responsible for the rise of Porre. If it had that kind of far reaching effect on Porre, why did not profoundly alter human history between 12000BC and 600AD? and Porre's citizens had to be able to make contact with the Omen or whoever is inside of the it for the BO to able to influence them, which is also unlikely..

Maybe i'll just wait for your full analysis on the matter though...  :)

Gluttony

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Re: Porre and Guardia: An Exhaustive and Exhausting Analysis
« Reply #25 on: June 26, 2008, 12:57:31 pm »
Quote
I get back, it's on.  It's on like Donkey Kong.
Why am I aroused?

No, but seriously.....I haven't had a chance to read this. But, I'm now quite interested to partake in your deep and thorough analysis! Just can't right now....got class soon.  :lee:

VincentGAU8

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Re: Porre and Guardia: An Exhaustive and Exhausting Analysis
« Reply #26 on: July 08, 2008, 11:37:38 pm »
Um, anything on that article yet, Thought?

ShoeMagus

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Re: Porre and Guardia: An Exhaustive and Exhausting Analysis
« Reply #27 on: July 12, 2008, 12:37:43 pm »
Guardia is the only place that the Masamune could have really ended up. Granted Frog didn't live in Truce, but he was on such great terms with the royal line (from all ages apparently) that Guardia is the only place he could logically trust it. At the very least, it would sit for some four hundred years until Crono comes into the picture and could safeguard it.

I know that Lucca at least was very aware of the significance of time traveling and what might happen if one interfered. But I don't think that, if the "outside influence" was Belthazar that it would have been as straightforward as him telling them to back away or them simply backing away. Motivations are harder to gauge. If they realized that their interference with time had somehow caused Porre's rise and Guardia's fall, what would they have done? Sat back?

That never seemed Crono and Co's style.

There has to be more behind it. Just like the Telepod and the escape from the Chancellor lead to the discovery of Lavos and a larger adventure, so the Rise of Porre naturally must have lead to some bigger threat. Direct conflict with this mysterious traveler.

Honestly, I don't see Belthezar as being so All Knowing as being able to determine where the Masamune had to be in order for it to block Serge and thus make Serge seek out the Einlanzer. You could attempt to extend things further and suggest that in some insane, half crazed extradimensional way that the old Guru was the Entity and caused Chrono Trigger. Granted he had a lot of foreknowledge.

But the Rise of Porre does not seem so essential to the plot of Chrono Cross and the defeat of the Time Devourer. The Acacia Dragoons are important, certainly. General Viper. Chronopolis, Fate, and Lynx. But Porre? I don't know. Not enough for Belthezar to concern himself specifically.




Thought

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Re: Porre and Guardia: An Exhaustive and Exhausting Analysis
« Reply #28 on: July 22, 2008, 11:11:00 am »
Um, anything on that article yet, Thought?

Sort of. I had actually forgotten about working on it, until you mentioned it (at which point I face-palmed). I've been working on it, albeit incredibly slowly (I think sediment has begun to form on the file), since. I am actually currently pondering if the changes I am making are significant enough to merit the addition of the phrase "Second Edition."

However, when I do finally get that article ready, there will, at the very least, be three improvements: 1) A discussion on the role of technology (... or monologue, I guess, but in academia monologues are called discussions), 2) actual map overlays (for the section on comparing locations across time), and 3) revised text (correcting spelling and grammar, rephrasing awkward sentences, etc).

Guardia is the only place that the Masamune could have really ended up. Granted Frog didn't live in Truce, but he was on such great terms with the royal line (from all ages apparently) that Guardia is the only place he could logically trust it. At the very least, it would sit for some four hundred years until Crono comes into the picture and could safeguard it.

Don't Masa and Mune get a say in the matter? They are better guards of the blade than Guardia could offer.

But the Rise of Porre does not seem so essential to the plot of Chrono Cross and the defeat of the Time Devourer. The Acacia Dragoons are important, certainly. General Viper. Chronopolis, Fate, and Lynx. But Porre? I don't know. Not enough for Belthezar to concern himself specifically.

Actually, that is exactly why we know so little about the Fall of Guardia. I believe Kato said that there was more planned, but that it wasn't included in the game because it wasn't important to the story. But then again, the nature of the Time Crash wasn't really explained either, and likewise it wasn't that important to the plot (the nature of the Time Crash, not the Time Crash itself).

And you've also hit on one of the problems with Chrono Cross; Project Kid, as presented by Belthasar, is too complex and exacting to be believable.

VincentGAU8

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Re: Porre and Guardia: An Exhaustive and Exhausting Analysis
« Reply #29 on: July 22, 2008, 11:55:21 pm »
Um, anything on that article yet, Thought?

Sort of. I had actually forgotten about working on it, until you mentioned it (at which point I face-palmed). I've been working on it, albeit incredibly slowly (I think sediment has begun to form on the file), since. I am actually currently pondering if the changes I am making are significant enough to merit the addition of the phrase "Second Edition."

However, when I do finally get that article ready, there will, at the very least, be three improvements: 1) A discussion on the role of technology (... or monologue, I guess, but in academia monologues are called discussions), 2) actual map overlays (for the section on comparing locations across time), and 3) revised text (correcting spelling and grammar, rephrasing awkward sentences, etc).

Alright.. Still looking forward to it.. I would have tried to do my own analysis if not for the tons of schoolwork i have to face.. I live in the Philippines, where classes just started about a month ago, while you guys in the west are just stretching up for your respective vacations.. In any case, your word would still be better than mine..