Author Topic: "Corridors of Time" Rise of Porre theory -- yea or nay?  (Read 5264 times)

VincentGAU8

  • Enlightened One (+200)
  • *
  • Posts: 218
  • Toma The Explorer!! TOMA!!!
    • View Profile
Re: "Corridors of Time" Rise of Porre theory -- yea or nay?
« Reply #15 on: May 07, 2008, 08:57:31 pm »
Some well placed shots.. hmm, to be more realistic, the firearms of Porre were probably not rifles.. the first guns in our world were smoothbore muskets, maybe that was likewise in Porre.. I remember in CC that Porre soldiers carry firearms, but when you fight them they use their guns mainly to stab you, as if there were bayonets attached (correct me if i'm mistaken).. that indicates that Porre's soldiers were not confident about the accuracy of their guns, suggesting that they use the horribly innaccurate muskets..

and the Dragon tank was fairly mobile right? That would have made it harder to hit.. and If porre's artillery were also innaccurate smoothbore cannons, thay would have relied more on 'lucky hits', rather than "well placed shots" to destroy the tank.. Early cannons were not used for precision fire, rather as seige and area denial weapons..

V_Translanka

  • Interim Global Moderator
  • Arbiter (+8000)
  • *
  • Posts: 8340
  • Destroyer of Worlds
    • View Profile
    • http://www.angelfire.com/weird2/v_translanka/
Re: "Corridors of Time" Rise of Porre theory -- yea or nay?
« Reply #16 on: May 07, 2008, 10:26:45 pm »
They shoot you in their Techs...Norris has access to various pistol guns as well, though, remember...Zappa can make (most of) them.

The Dragon Tank seemed to lumber in very tank-like, actually...I don't think they were paying enough attention to it's defense outside of the Sky/Fire Shield because the head could restore the body...honestly, it was one of the first bosses (and the only one where you have 2 party members? I think that's right), so they had to make it flawed for the game's sake too, HA!

Thought

  • Guru of Time Emeritus
  • God of War (+3000)
  • *
  • Posts: 3426
    • View Profile
Re: "Corridors of Time" Rise of Porre theory -- yea or nay?
« Reply #17 on: May 08, 2008, 12:00:04 pm »
Well, the guns employed by Porre are certainly more advanced than muskets. They look to be flintlock or more advanced. Personally, given the ease with which the weapons are fired, I am inclined to think them cartridge or maybe caplock (if the graphics indicate shells flying out of the guns when fired, then definitely cartridge, but I can't remember that level of detail). The weapons employ smokeless gunpowder and are breach-loading (as opposed to muzzle-loading, like muskets). Given the frequency with which the guns may be fired (several times a minute), this implies that they are not single-shot either, but multi-shot (or revolver based). Given Lucca's processing of the Sun Stone (by vacuum packing it into a cartridge), it appears that the weapons might have been magazine fed (or that magazine like concepts were around).

As for the Porre soldiers stabbing with their guns, that probably has nothing to do with the weapons themselves but rather the military mindset. WWI rifles were reasonably accurate, but the military commanders believed that the war would be won at bayonet point. Thus, despite being less effective, the bayonet charge was highly valued by those commanders. Such is generally seen to be the result of militaries (and nations) always preparing to fight the last war (for example, after WWI France built the world's greatest military trench fortification system along their boarders... the German tanks had no problem rolling right over them come WWII). Before WWI, bayonets were more important, so generals thought they were still important, ignoring technological developments (like the machine gun).

As such, the Porre military using "bayonets" is very likely an artifact of rapidly developed technology. Indeed, 1000 AD Porre might not of even had anywhere close to those sort of weapons. A time traveler may have introduced such devices but the effective use of technology is hard to pass on.

All in all, the level of technology is fairly mid-20th century, with a dash of steam punk, a cup of sci-fi, and a pinch of anachronism thrown in for fun.

I suppose, if we are assuming 20th century level technology, Laser’s really aren’t too out of place, particularly in a wacky R&D concept like the Dragon Tank (still, how are LIGHT Amplification by Stimulated Emission of Radiation devices “dark” magic? What, do these lasers make those hand stamps at Disneyland glow?). Lasers might not be practical weapons, but they are still cool.

Of course, the dragon tanks “lasers” not very laser-like. It travels at less than the speed of light and very much in a visible, contained beam, alike to a blaster bolt from Star Wars. I still maintain that this laser, and even Robo’s Laser (which is way too big to be practical), may not be the same as what we define as lasers.

BROJ

  • CC:DBT Dream Team
  • Errare Explorer (+1500)
  • *
  • Posts: 1567
    • View Profile
Re: "Corridors of Time" Rise of Porre theory -- yea or nay?
« Reply #18 on: May 08, 2008, 03:34:53 pm »
Lasers might not be practical weapons, but they are still cool.
Weeee!


Of course, the dragon tanks “lasers” not very laser-like. It travels at less than the speed of light and very much in a visible, contained beam, alike to a blaster bolt from Star Wars. I still maintain that this laser, and even Robo’s Laser (which is way too big to be practical), may not be the same as what we define as lasers.
Would particle cannons be a fairer term?

Boo the Gentleman Caller

  • Guru of Life Emeritus
  • Hero of Time (+5000)
  • *
  • Posts: 5297
    • View Profile
Re: "Corridors of Time" Rise of Porre theory -- yea or nay?
« Reply #19 on: May 08, 2008, 04:05:58 pm »
Remember, of course, the Chrono universe has a different history than we do.  Perhaps DIFFERENT technologies were invented there before they were here, and vice versa.  And perhaps they have COMPLETELY DIFFERENT inventions / scientific revelations that we have yet to discover (ie - Lucca''s Telepod).

Also, considering the "magical" nature of the Chrono Universe, the physics of their world may be completely different altogether.

As such, it seems to me that their projectile-based weaponry may be something unlike anything we've ever seen.

FaustWolf

  • Guru of Time Emeritus
  • Arbiter (+8000)
  • *
  • Posts: 8972
  • Fan Power Advocate
    • View Profile
Re: "Corridors of Time" Rise of Porre theory -- yea or nay?
« Reply #20 on: May 08, 2008, 04:15:09 pm »
What gets me is that Guardia's last defender and that person's opponent were using swords in the "Time Skips a Beat" video. Did the Guardia R&D department not produce another Dragon Tank in time, or something? And why wasn't the enemy soldier using a standard issue Porre rifle? UNLESS -- that attacker were an Acacian mercenary hired by Porre and they primarily used swords, which is why I'm a fan of the Garai theory.

AND...could Guardian businessmen have outsourced a majority of the country's manufacturing capacity to Porre between 1000 and 1005AG? Sort of like what US manufacturers did with Mexico and now China? However, this still doesn't explain why Guardia wouldn't have had another Dragon Tank, since you'd expect the royal government to keep its most defense-critical manufacturing capability within the country, unless Crono allowed a major blunder to happen...and Crono is Chuck Norris in disguise, so that's not an option :) 

V_Translanka

  • Interim Global Moderator
  • Arbiter (+8000)
  • *
  • Posts: 8340
  • Destroyer of Worlds
    • View Profile
    • http://www.angelfire.com/weird2/v_translanka/
Re: "Corridors of Time" Rise of Porre theory -- yea or nay?
« Reply #21 on: May 08, 2008, 08:49:32 pm »
Quote from: Thought
I suppose, if we are assuming 20th century level technology, Laser’s really aren’t too out of place, particularly in a wacky R&D concept like the Dragon Tank (still, how are LIGHT Amplification by Stimulated Emission of Radiation devices “dark” magic?

Well, Shadow Magic is normally a combination of the others, right? Maybe lasers are seen as a kind of combination of Heaven/Lightning & Fire or something?

I think it's possible that after the original Dragon Tank debacle that they just scrapped the whole idea altogether...or else maybe the Guardia Development Dept. was disbanded?? lol

BROJ

  • CC:DBT Dream Team
  • Errare Explorer (+1500)
  • *
  • Posts: 1567
    • View Profile
Re: "Corridors of Time" Rise of Porre theory -- yea or nay?
« Reply #22 on: May 08, 2008, 09:28:03 pm »
Well, Shadow Magic is normally a combination of the others, right? Maybe lasers are seen as a kind of combination of Heaven/Lightning & Fire or something?

I think it's possible that after the original Dragon Tank debacle that they just scrapped the whole idea altogether...or else maybe the Guardia Development Dept. was disbanded?? lol
I always thought shadow magic was a Lavos-equivalent(i.e. Dark Force or Zealian Magic) to the natural elements; weren't Robo's Techniques said to be Shadow-like, at any rate--implying that they're not natural.

Quote from: CT retranslation; Spekkio
Spekkio: This hugeass doll......
You, you're not a living thing.

You've got a strong heart too, but since you're
not descended from the ancient magic
peoples, magic's a no-go.

But that laser weapon of yours has got
serious destructive ability.
It resembles "Dark" power.
« Last Edit: May 08, 2008, 10:21:57 pm by BROJ »

V_Translanka

  • Interim Global Moderator
  • Arbiter (+8000)
  • *
  • Posts: 8340
  • Destroyer of Worlds
    • View Profile
    • http://www.angelfire.com/weird2/v_translanka/
Re: "Corridors of Time" Rise of Porre theory -- yea or nay?
« Reply #23 on: May 09, 2008, 02:47:31 am »
I think that just means that it deals a Shadow Magic-like effect w/o literally being Magic...Magic magic requires an inner strength...

Quote from: Spekkio (CTRetranslation
But you guys've got it. Strength of the heart.
   Magic's the heart's strength, power.

Magic's made up of the four powers Sky, Dark,
   Fire, and Water.

Quote from: Spekkio (CTRetranslation
Like so, it's not just magic, all things
   are made up of the balance of these four.


Quote from: Spekkio (CTRetranslation
Th, this guy you've brought's really something
   else!

   The incredibly rare Dark power......!
   I've got nothing to teach him.

That seems to make it seem like Shadow Magic is just not as common...Also, most (all?) Double & Triple Techs that use combinations of Magic-types usually default to create Shadow...
« Last Edit: May 09, 2008, 02:51:37 am by V_Translanka »

secondrate

  • Iokan (+1)
  • *
  • Posts: 11
    • View Profile
Re: "Corridors of Time" Rise of Porre theory -- yea or nay?
« Reply #24 on: May 09, 2008, 04:04:56 am »
Wasn't Chancellor really Yakra XIII? He seemed to have knowledge that had been passed down from his ancestor. Now, what was the earliest Yakra ancestor responsible for? That's right! The abduction of Queen Leena! What if that Yakra came from the Dark Ages, or maybe...the Future?
« Last Edit: May 09, 2008, 05:45:04 am by secondrate »

VincentGAU8

  • Enlightened One (+200)
  • *
  • Posts: 218
  • Toma The Explorer!! TOMA!!!
    • View Profile
Re: "Corridors of Time" Rise of Porre theory -- yea or nay?
« Reply #25 on: May 09, 2008, 06:20:05 am »
Well, the guns employed by Porre are certainly more advanced than muskets. They look to be flintlock or more advanced. Personally, given the ease with which the weapons are fired, I am inclined to think them cartridge or maybe caplock (if the graphics indicate shells flying out of the guns when fired, then definitely cartridge, but I can't remember that level of detail). The weapons employ smokeless gunpowder and are breach-loading (as opposed to muzzle-loading, like muskets). Given the frequency with which the guns may be fired (several times a minute), this implies that they are not single-shot either, but multi-shot (or revolver based). Given Lucca's processing of the Sun Stone (by vacuum packing it into a cartridge), it appears that the weapons might have been magazine fed (or that magazine like concepts were around).

As for the Porre soldiers stabbing with their guns, that probably has nothing to do with the weapons themselves but rather the military mindset. WWI rifles were reasonably accurate, but the military commanders believed that the war would be won at bayonet point. Thus, despite being less effective, the bayonet charge was highly valued by those commanders. Such is generally seen to be the result of militaries (and nations) always preparing to fight the last war (for example, after WWI France built the world's greatest military trench fortification system along their boarders... the German tanks had no problem rolling right over them come WWII). Before WWI, bayonets were more important, so generals thought they were still important, ignoring technological developments (like the machine gun).

As such, the Porre military using "bayonets" is very likely an artifact of rapidly developed technology. Indeed, 1000 AD Porre might not of even had anywhere close to those sort of weapons. A time traveler may have introduced such devices but the effective use of technology is hard to pass on.

All in all, the level of technology is fairly mid-20th century, with a dash of steam punk, a cup of sci-fi, and a pinch of anachronism thrown in for fun.

I suppose, if we are assuming 20th century level technology, Laser’s really aren’t too out of place, particularly in a wacky R&D concept like the Dragon Tank (still, how are LIGHT Amplification by Stimulated Emission of Radiation devices “dark” magic? What, do these lasers make those hand stamps at Disneyland glow?). Lasers might not be practical weapons, but they are still cool.

Of course, the dragon tanks “lasers” not very laser-like. It travels at less than the speed of light and very much in a visible, contained beam, alike to a blaster bolt from Star Wars. I still maintain that this laser, and even Robo’s Laser (which is way too big to be practical), may not be the same as what we define as lasers.

Ok, the guns aint muskets, but how about Porre's cannons? might they be rifled too? and how would they fare against an opponent such as the Dragon Tank? 

And did military commanders of WWI really believed that the war would be won by the bayonet? not with trench warfare and machine guns cutting through massed infantry and bayonet attacks like a harvester in a wheat field.. Still, even WWII armed forces utilized bayonets for close in combat..

And German tanks did not roll over the Maginot Line, they outflanked it through then neutral Belgium and Luxembourg in a display of mechanized superiority...
« Last Edit: May 09, 2008, 06:32:51 am by VincentGAU8 »

FaustWolf

  • Guru of Time Emeritus
  • Arbiter (+8000)
  • *
  • Posts: 8972
  • Fan Power Advocate
    • View Profile
Re: "Corridors of Time" Rise of Porre theory -- yea or nay?
« Reply #26 on: May 09, 2008, 11:21:03 am »
Okay, with all this world war talk I just have to post this. CuteLucca's beautiful artwork depicting something that isn't Porre overwhelming Guardia, but which I have always associated it with:


Secondrate, you're suggesting that Yakra XIII lent some kind of high-tech knowledge to the Guardia Development Dept., and with Yakra XIII's death, Guardia lost its technological edge?

BROJ

  • CC:DBT Dream Team
  • Errare Explorer (+1500)
  • *
  • Posts: 1567
    • View Profile
Re: "Corridors of Time" Rise of Porre theory -- yea or nay?
« Reply #27 on: May 09, 2008, 11:49:02 am »
[...]
Quote from: Spekkio
Magic's made up of the four powers Sky, Dark,
   Fire, and Water.

Quote from: Spekkio (CTRetranslation
Like so, it's not just magic, all things
   are made up of the balance of these four.

[...]

That seems to make it seem like Shadow Magic is just not as common...Also, most (all?) Double & Triple Techs that use combinations of Magic-types usually default to create Shadow...

True, but there's something internally inconsistent when shadow is composed of the other three elements, yet it is somehow still a separate force and one to be in a state of equilibrium with the other three.
So mathematically: 1(avg. element) != 2|3(Shadow) so Shadow can never be balanced as 1+1+1+(2|3) != 4.
« Last Edit: May 09, 2008, 04:12:28 pm by BROJ »

Thought

  • Guru of Time Emeritus
  • God of War (+3000)
  • *
  • Posts: 3426
    • View Profile
Re: "Corridors of Time" Rise of Porre theory -- yea or nay?
« Reply #28 on: May 09, 2008, 04:04:14 pm »
What gets me is that Guardia's last defender and that person's opponent were using swords in the "Time Skips a Beat" video. Did the Guardia R&D department not produce another Dragon Tank in time, or something? And why wasn't the enemy soldier using a standard issue Porre rifle? UNLESS -- that attacker were an Acacian mercenary hired by Porre and they primarily used swords, which is why I'm a fan of the Garai theory.

The Dragon Tank was undone by a punk rocker and a girl with robot fetish. That wouldn't be a big selling point, you know.

But as for why they were using swords, anachronism!

I mean really, what is going to cause more damage, getting hit by a friggen gun or a crossbow bolt? One would suspect the former, but if I recall right Marle and Lucca's attacks were rather comperable.

Besides, like Lasers, swords are cool.

Ok, the guns aint muskets, but how about Porre's cannons? might they be rifled too? and how would they fare against an opponent such as the Dragon Tank? 

And did military commanders of WWI really believed that the war would be won by the bayonet? not with trench warfare and machine guns cutting through massed infantry and bayonet attacks like a harvester in a wheat field.. Still, even WWII armed forces utilized bayonets for close in combat..

And German tanks did not roll over the Maginot Line, they outflanked it through then neutral Belgium and Luxembourg in a display of mechanized superiority...

As noted above, two teenagers were able to defeat the Dragon Tank. Cannons should have had no problem (with or without rifling), as long as there was a lot of them (as is, enough for an assult).

And yes, the early generals in WWI did put too high of a value on bayonetts (though, to be fair, all 19th century tactics were too highly valued), which is partially why the war was so deadly. It is stupid to order a bayonet charge against an enemy that is dug in and has a machine gun, but bayonet charges were ordered nonetheless.

To note, Bayonets are still in use.

Also, when I said: "for example, after WWI France built the world's greatest military trench fortification system along their boarders... the German tanks had no problem rolling right over them come WWII," by "them" I meant the French, not the trenches (but that was a poorly constructed sentance, sorry).


Regarding Dark Magic, it really is an interesting topic given it is a fundamental force that in turn seems to be made up of other forces.
« Last Edit: May 09, 2008, 04:05:54 pm by Thought »

secondrate

  • Iokan (+1)
  • *
  • Posts: 11
    • View Profile
Re: "Corridors of Time" Rise of Porre theory -- yea or nay?
« Reply #29 on: May 09, 2008, 04:34:57 pm »

Secondrate, you're suggesting that Yakra XIII lent some kind of high-tech knowledge to the Guardia Development Dept., and with Yakra XIII's death, Guardia lost its technological edge?


It's a possibility. Who knows if he left behind any schematics...but seeing how he was a Mystic, he would've kept all knowledge to himself.