Author Topic: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development  (Read 41617 times)

Chrono'99

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Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
« Reply #195 on: July 12, 2005, 06:26:25 pm »
Pretty nice. ...but doesn't Lucca have brown eyes (or something other than bright green at least)?

Legend of the Past

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« Reply #196 on: July 12, 2005, 06:32:02 pm »
All the Crono Trigger characters have blue\green eyes. 'Cept for Robo, who dosen't have eyes?

Quote from: Dan Krispin
Why the heck is Lucca named Pearl?

The same can be asked for why Marle is named Maria and why Robo is named Kevin (The oddest of the three O_O).

Chrono'99

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Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
« Reply #197 on: July 12, 2005, 06:35:27 pm »
Quote from: Legend of the Past
All the Crono Trigger characters have blue\green eyes. 'Cept for Robo, who dosen't have eyes?

Ah I've just checked you're right. They're a bit darker on the artworks but I suppose it's not a problem (like how Crono's clothes can be dark blue or bright green).

ZeaLitY

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Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
« Reply #198 on: July 12, 2005, 07:18:57 pm »
It's just the savestate I'm using; it puts you at the very end of the game. I use it to check portraits since all party members are there.

I just succeeded in creating the modern Choras soldier by pointing an unused spot to the usual middle ages soldier and giving him a palette swap. Now comes the hard part, which is actually putting this baddie into the game:

http://cc.herograw.com/Zeality/CTCE/VanguardSoldier-big.bmp

This is the basic Vanguard soldier. I'm going to have a guy in game explain all the colors.

1000 A.D.

Basic Guardia fighting auxiliary and Choras troops use red-orange.
Guardia specialists wear blue.
All Porre soldiers wear blue, and specialists have the "Norris" style jacket.
The Vanguard wears crimson.

600 A.D.

Everyone wears purple. Remember?

Zaperking

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« Reply #199 on: July 13, 2005, 03:18:44 am »
Zealians wear purple too lol

ZeaLitY

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« Reply #200 on: July 13, 2005, 11:09:09 pm »
I've learned how to make basic events, like walk in a room, two people talk, maybe take a swing, one walks out, another dances, etc.

Still don't know how to do battles. But while I'm being helped with the former, I built the Medina harbor. One of the most amazing and difficult undertakings of the Mystics, it was completed of their defense force. At the end is the "Rock of Medina," a symbol of its newfound identity. Trade and ferry service is good at the moment, especially with the natural harbor, but Medina isn't taking sides just yet in this conflict. Those two buildings by the harbor are the Defense Force Headquarters and the Ferry Station.


Aitrus

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« Reply #201 on: July 13, 2005, 11:53:59 pm »
Quote from: Daniel Krispin
Awesome work guys, here, I've just been skimming through your story ideas. But a comment.

Quote from: ZeaLitY
Dyasavah is the fourth Guru.


Since she's a woman, I'd hesitate on this naming, and should rather think it would be better if the number of Guru's stay at three. Rather, call her a Deva for, you see, if my memory serves, 'Deva' is the female version of 'Guru'. In that way, you could then have there being (or having been) three Devas to three Gurus, almost like the high priests and priestesses of old Zeal. Just an idea, and nitpicking on etymology.


Thing is, in CC, weren't the supposed best-of-the-best in the Acacia Dragoons (also a mixed male/female goup, btw) called the Four Devas?

It'd probably be better to stick with Guru on this as, first off, this became a hereditary position and her father had no male heirs, if I remember our backstory correct, and second, so as to not confuse the two groups.

Hadriel

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« Reply #202 on: July 14, 2005, 12:30:21 am »
How about the Oracle?  It hasn't been done before in the Chrono series.  But in that case, we might need a new name.

Daniel Krispin

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Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
« Reply #203 on: July 14, 2005, 12:30:55 am »
Quote from: Aitrus
Thing is, in CC, weren't the supposed best-of-the-best in the Acacia Dragoons (also a mixed male/female goup, btw) called the Four Devas?

It'd probably be better to stick with Guru on this as, first off, this became a hereditary position and her father had no male heirs, if I remember our backstory correct, and second, so as to not confuse the two groups.


True, but CC messed up a few things in that regard, that being one of them. The other is that 'dragoon' has never implied a warrior that uses swords or any sort of weapon other than a gun. A dragoon is a mounted musketeer, and is so named for the breath of fire - like a dragon's - that flames from the barrel of his musket. That aside, however, it might be seen that the warrior's connection to the ancient dragons, and their bearing of dragon-symbols, could give strength to the name being used for them, perhaps.

However, I think my strongest point in arguing this is that there was an allusion behind the existance of three, and only three, Guru's. To change that number, and add a fourth to their order, would disrupt this deft allusion. Moreover, 'deva' is not as major a term in CC, and I would not worry overmuch about confusion between the two or, at least, less so than the difficulty in inherent in the issue which I have just stated. The confusion of the groups is, to my mind, far preferrable than the disruption of the order of the Three.

Now, I have yet to read the plot as outlined (I would wish to do so on paper, but have yet to print it off)... I am not sure if it is apparent in this writing or not, but I am extremely muddle-headed, and have difficulty understanding and reading things to some extent. As such, I should not wish to read it until such a time as I am feeling more apt to it. But sufficed to say, from what you have said, I would recommend not making the Guru's a hereditary position. They seem nearly like the counsellors and chief advisors to the Zeal (I think this is even alluded to, in what one of Zeal says in Chrono Trigger, regarding the 'three Guru's who led Zeal', or something to that effect.) That said, I doubt that the position of counsellor would be hereditary, and would likely be rather drawn from the old and experienced of the lords and wise men - those who through years have proven themselves. Rather like the position of Poet Lauriate or something to that effect. Belthesar distinguished himself as a scientist, so was appointed such a post in the royal court. Judging by their high status, they may even have been lords prior to that time, as well.

But regardless, to have such a position as hereditary would pose a grave problem: one man may be wise and learned in a field, but it does not mean his scion is. My father is well-versed in matters of theology and the like, and I share something of his love of those things, but my younger brother is not quite so keen to them. In the same way, what should happen if, then, the postion of Guru of Reason were filled by a man that cannot think in such a way, and passes on this inability to his children as well? Wise men would need be drawn from the ranks of wise men, not inhereted. After all, it would not be wisdom to do otherwise.

And as a second point, I simply do not think the idea of a woman Guru works, and to my mind reflects strangely on the position of Guru. Firstly, at least to me, Guru always implies a man, never a woman. To make one a woman seems to me simply an attempt to equalize things across the sexes, but is not how things would work in real. Or, to put it more correctly, Zeal is an ancient culture. There were, mostly, strict lines in culture, about what people could hold what position. That of Guru seems to me one of those that would have been forbidden to women, at least in what I know of the form of ancient culture (some, it is true, freely allowed female rulers and the like - the Egyptians for example - but there they followed the practices of the male rulers, in Egypt even wearing the kingly beard.) The best solution I could think of to such a dilemma - and it is a dilemma of style and form, and to my eyes makes Zeal seem less as an ancient culture and more as a modern one - is to make a parallel order that is purely of women, the priestesses to the priests, so to speak. The female equivalent then could easily be Deva. This re-use would hardly be grievous - Black Wind is reused, after all. Then we could have three positions here as well, say the Deva of Ceremonies, or things to that effect. It would not be hard to have them intruduce themselves as the Deva of the Ceremonies, second of the womanly three, the ladies who sat across from the three lords.

In the end, I must say that it seems that a female fourth Guru seems more as what would happen in a fanfiction than in Crimson Echoes (which I hold to be far above fanfiction from what I have seen so far), and am merely attempting to keep it away from such ground.

Oh, sorry, didn't see your post, Hadriel. Well, to my mind, Deva worked because it is the real-life opposite to Guru. Personally, I never liked the sound of 'Guru' (if you've ever seen my story, I always name them 'Master'), so naturally prefer Oracle over Deva. I'll check the meaning of oracle, though. Hmmm... I thought it was Greek, I should have known better. It's Latin, oh well. I suppose thinking of the Oracle at Delphi deceived me. Hmmm... Oracle of the Ceremonies? Does that work? (that 'of the Ceremonies' I thought of today I thought worked interestingly.)

DarkGizmo

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« Reply #204 on: July 14, 2005, 12:44:04 am »
Hum if Belthasar would have died in Zeal and the best Scientist at that time was a women would you call her the Deva of Reason or would you look for a men less skilled but a man anyway? I personaly think that in Zeal women weren't oppressed like this and it could possibly be a Deva of Reason

Aitrus

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« Reply #205 on: July 14, 2005, 12:53:04 am »
Quote from: Daniel Krispin
Quote from: Aitrus
Thing is, in CC, weren't the supposed best-of-the-best in the Acacia Dragoons (also a mixed male/female goup, btw) called the Four Devas?

It'd probably be better to stick with Guru on this as, first off, this became a hereditary position and her father had no male heirs, if I remember our backstory correct, and second, so as to not confuse the two groups.


True, but CC messed up a few things in that regard, that being one of them. The other is that 'dragoon' has never implied a warrior that uses swords or any sort of weapon other than a gun. A dragoon is a mounted musketeer, and is so named for the breath of fire - like a dragon's - that flames from the barrel of his musket. That aside, however, it might be seen that the warrior's connection to the ancient dragons, and their bearing of dragon-symbols, could give strength to the name being used for them, perhaps.

However, I think my strongest point in arguing this is that there was an allusion behind the existance of three, and only three, Guru's. To change that number, and add a fourth to their order, would disrupt this deft allusion. Moreover, 'deva' is not as major a term in CC, and I would not worry overmuch about confusion between the two or, at least, less so than the difficulty in inherent in the issue which I have just stated. The confusion of the groups is, to my mind, far preferrable than the disruption of the order of the Three.

Now, I have yet to read the plot as outlined (I would wish to do so on paper, but have yet to print it off)... I am not sure if it is apparent in this writing or not, but I am extremely muddle-headed, and have difficulty understanding and reading things to some extent. As such, I should not wish to read it until such a time as I am feeling more apt to it. But sufficed to say, from what you have said, I would recommend not making the Guru's a hereditary position. They seem nearly like the counsellors and chief advisors to the Zeal (I think this is even alluded to, in what one of Zeal says in Chrono Trigger, regarding the 'three Guru's who led Zeal', or something to that effect.) That said, I doubt that the position of counsellor would be hereditary, and would likely be rather drawn from the old and experienced of the lords and wise men - those who through years have proven themselves. Rather like the position of Poet Lauriate or something to that effect. Belthesar distinguished himself as a scientist, so was appointed such a post in the royal court. Judging by their high status, they may even have been lords prior to that time, as well.

But regardless, to have such a position as hereditary would pose a grave problem: one man may be wise and learned in a field, but it does not mean his scion is. My father is well-versed in matters of theology and the like, and I share something of his love of those things, but my younger brother is not quite so keen to them. In the same way, what should happen if, then, the postion of Guru of Reason were filled by a man that cannot think in such a way, and passes on this inability to his children as well? Wise men would need be drawn from the ranks of wise men, not inhereted. After all, it would not be wisdom to do otherwise.

And as a second point, I simply do not think the idea of a woman Guru works, and to my mind reflects strangely on the position of Guru. Firstly, at least to me, Guru always implies a man, never a woman. To make one a woman seems to me simply an attempt to equalize things across the sexes, but is not how things would work in real. Or, to put it more correctly, Zeal is an ancient culture. There were, mostly, strict lines in culture, about what people could hold what position. That of Guru seems to me one of those that would have been forbidden to women, at least in what I know of the form of ancient culture (some, it is true, freely allowed female rulers and the like - the Egyptians for example - but there they followed the practices of the male rulers, in Egypt even wearing the kingly beard.) The best solution I could think of to such a dilemma - and it is a dilemma of style and form, and to my eyes makes Zeal seem less as an ancient culture and more as a modern one - is to make a parallel order that is purely of women, the priestesses to the priests, so to speak. The female equivalent then could easily be Deva. This re-use would hardly be grievous - Black Wind is reused, after all. Then we could have three positions here as well, say the Deva of Ceremonies, or things to that effect. It would not be hard to have them intruduce themselves as the Deva of the Ceremonies, second of the womanly three, the ladies who sat across from the three lords.

In the end, I must say that it seems that a female fourth Guru seems more as what would happen in a fanfiction than in Crimson Echoes (which I hold to be far above fanfiction from what I have seen so far), and am merely attempting to keep it away from such ground.

Oh, sorry, didn't see your post, Hadriel. Well, to my mind, Deva worked because it is the real-life opposite to Guru. Personally, I never liked the sound of 'Guru' (if you've ever seen my story, I always name them 'Master'), so naturally prefer Oracle over Deva. I'll check the meaning of oracle, though. Hmmm... I thought it was Greek, I should have known better. It's Latin, oh well. I suppose thinking of the Oracle at Delphi deceived me. Hmmm... Oracle of the Ceremonies? Does that work? (that 'of the Ceremonies' I thought of today I thought worked interestingly.)


On the note of the position being hereditary, I wasn't clear.  I was referring to this specific Guru only, as this post has been sundered from Zeal for quite some time.

From what we worked out (Zeality, correct me if I'm wrong, I'm working from memory), the Zeal originated in Calasperan beneath the sea.  When they created the continents now known as Zeal, three of the four Gurus went with the Royal Family to the sky.  The fourth, however, remained behind to rule Calasperan, becoming the de facto king.  While the Gurus of Zeal continued to be appointed, the Guru in Calasperan took on the manners of actual royalty, including passing his title to his heir.  This would be why our Guru is female - no male heirs, so the title falls to the firstborn daughter.

Daniel Krispin

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Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
« Reply #206 on: July 14, 2005, 01:12:01 am »
Quote from: Aitrus
On the note of the position being hereditary, I wasn't clear.  I was referring to this specific Guru only, as this post has been sundered from Zeal for quite some time.

From what we worked out (Zeality, correct me if I'm wrong, I'm working from memory), the Zeal originated in Calasperan beneath the sea.  When they created the continents now known as Zeal, three of the four Gurus went with the Royal Family to the sky.  The fourth, however, remained behind to rule Calasperan, becoming the de facto king.  While the Gurus of Zeal continued to be appointed, the Guru in Calasperan took on the manners of actual royalty, including passing his title to his heir.  This would be why our Guru is female - no male heirs, so the title falls to the firstborn daughter.


I do not think there should be a fourth Guru, personally. Is it possible to make it one of the Three say, perhaps, of Reason, with a new one appointed by the Royal family after the flight? This way the hallowed number three remains.

Now, I see what you mean by passing on to a woman, and indeed it makes more sense to me, in that she would then essentially be a queen as well. That does strike me better. However, I still think that Guru is plainly a male form of the rank, and that another should be used for the female version, even if it is the same position. Say, rather than the Guru of Reason, one has the Deva of Reason (or Oracle of Reason, or Mistress of Reason, etc.) In the same way that lord and king have different names for male and female, so should this, I believe.

Yet no-one liked my idea of a seperate order of priestesses of wisdom aside the three priests of wisdom? It would seem a good societal ordering, I think, each with their own responsabilities.

On a last note regarding what was said about the oppression of women. It is not so much oppression as it is the form of old culture or, rather, a culture in which each is given different responsability. Women cannot do all things men can, after all, and vice versa. And there is always tradition, a thing not to be flouted. Can there be a woman pope or priest or pastor, for example? It is not discrimination, it is simply tradition and order in society, as there must at needs be to stave off anarchy.

Aitrus

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« Reply #207 on: July 14, 2005, 01:29:02 am »
Regarding your priestesses idea, I like it, and in an actual society it would be a very good idea.  However, in a game, people like that should serve an actual purpose which I don't think would be very feasible in this one.

And as for the male/female aspect of the Guru/Deva debate, I think that here is where it's arbitrary, so as to avoid confusion.  Whether CC used the term Deva correctly or not makes no difference, as it has been done and cannot be undone.  To call Dyasavah a Deva would cause confusion between the two groups, when none is intended.  Just because it's improper from a grammar point of view doesn't neccessarily mean that it can't be done, and besides, over intervening years, the title "Guru" in Calasperan could very well have become gender-neutral.  Languages do change over time.

Hadriel

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« Reply #208 on: July 14, 2005, 01:38:01 am »
Well, I've seen female pastors, at the least.  Not so much for the Pope angle, though in the Babylon 5 universe the Pope at the time of the Shadow War is a female.

What I thought we did originally is that Zeal was at first a land-based civilization like any other.  After a long time and a lot of technological advancement, they began to catch wind of Lavos energy, and the kingdom split over that issue.  The ground-based Zeal was engulfed in a flood and presumed lost, though in reality it used its technology to survive beneath the waves, but it couldn't survive the catastrophe that Lavos created upon his awakening.

I didn't catch the bit about the order of priestesses; I've been up since 3 AM and missed a bunch of stuff.  That actually could work.

But anyway, on with the plot.  Is this going to be the breaking point?  If it is, then we need to work out what happens after it.  So far, we've got the following slated for that point:

    ~Crono Nightmare #1 (Assault on Truce, execution of dream Crono)
    ~The Founding of Guardia (Marle, Lucca, Robo)
    ~Crono Nightmare #2 (Assault by party members and key NPCs)
    ~The Vanguard Apocalypse (Glenn, Magus, Schala)
    ~Crono Nightmare #3 (Defiled Earth)
    ~Valle Crimse quest, battle with ancient king
    ~El Nido, Gaea's Navel origins, more Frozen Flame stuff
    ~Toma sidequest
    ~Ozzie, Flea & Slash sidequest
    ~Magus sidequest
    ~The Future of Calasperan
    ~Final Battle
    ~Ending[/list:u]

DarkGizmo

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« Reply #209 on: July 14, 2005, 11:13:37 am »
Quote from: Daniel Krispin

On a last note regarding what was said about the oppression of women. It is not so much oppression as it is the form of old culture or, rather, a culture in which each is given different responsability. Women cannot do all things men can, after all, and vice versa. And there is always tradition, a thing not to be flouted. Can there be a woman pope or priest or pastor, for example? It is not discrimination, it is simply tradition and order in society, as there must at needs be to stave off anarchy.


I think that the old culture srted the oppression and by following the old culture we continue the oppression. Why can't a pope be a women, because God said that? They are both human, they both have a soul, they could both be pope, but a women couldn't because of tradition.