Author Topic: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development  (Read 42234 times)

Janus Zeal

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Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
« Reply #555 on: December 05, 2005, 02:54:18 pm »
To cut out Schala would completely negate Janus' story. His story arc is pointless if he isn't reunited with his sister. On the other hand, human Glenn is a must at this point. As you said, Glenn most likely reverted to human from at the end of Trigger.

The reunion of Janus and Schala is probably the highest emotional level we will reach with this project, and potentially the most important to old fans of CT. I don't believe we should sacrifice her character.

The only sprite of Ayla's that is smaller than normal is her running animation. Aside from that, she can be completely replaced by Schala. We just have to figure out a way to change her running animation...

You can't enlarge the running sprites, can you?

Daniel Krispin

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Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
« Reply #556 on: December 06, 2005, 11:22:38 pm »
I would disagree. Schala could still be implemented in NPC form. Glenn seems more natural to be a kindred warrior, as he was before. Of course, there is the element of brother-sister fighters that would be interesting, so there are things to be said for either way. I guess it depends on whose side to things is most interesting. Who is more important to the story as a whole?

Janus Zeal

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« Reply #557 on: December 08, 2005, 03:30:11 pm »
Storyline wise, I'd say they are both equally important. Neither Schala or Glenn play integral roles in this story (as the Masamune is never required).

A NPC version of Schala could work, but it wouldn't be anywhere near as effective as a playable Schala. Being a Magus fanboy, I tend to stray towards a playable Schala.

But obviously, this game isn't just for me. In the end, if it came right down to it, I'd chose a human Glenn over a playbale Schala.

The only thing I don't understand is how both can't be done. The sprites for Frog are smaller than a normal character sprite, and yet we can use human Glenn. Couldn't the same be done for Schala, replacing Ayla?

Daniel Krispin

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Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
« Reply #558 on: December 08, 2005, 04:03:12 pm »
Quote from: Janus Zeal
Storyline wise, I'd say they are both equally important. Neither Schala or Glenn play integral roles in this story (as the Masamune is never required).

A NPC version of Schala could work, but it wouldn't be anywhere near as effective as a playable Schala. Being a Magus fanboy, I tend to stray towards a playable Schala.

But obviously, this game isn't just for me. In the end, if it came right down to it, I'd chose a human Glenn over a playbale Schala.

The only thing I don't understand is how both can't be done. The sprites for Frog are smaller than a normal character sprite, and yet we can use human Glenn. Couldn't the same be done for Schala, replacing Ayla?


From what I've gathered, the human Glenn can't be used. As far as the demo goes, I wager that was an NPC they used. I think that they intend to replace Ayla with Schala, but that leaves only the half-sprite of Frog for Glenn... which could not be done. Conversely, Ayla could be replaced with Glenn, but that would remove Schala. I think the problem stems from the way the information is packed or something. They're having difficulty expanding on the Glenn sprite, I think it is - they can't make it be full height, because of the compact nature of the information. Or, I think that's the problem. I'm really not versed in that regard.

But, as I've said, I'm not that partial to one or another, and both have their merits. Schala could give Magus some double techs, maybe, which is what many have long wished for. Much of this story, after all, revolves around Zeal and the Flame. It is true that the founding of Guardia figures - and for that Glenn might be very helpful - but when it comes right down to it, Schala is likely more intrinsically connected to the overall story. An NPC Glenn could be used for that segment. And let us not forget that, along with Lavos, she is the main character of the saga, the only one constant through CT, RD, and CC. In that regard, she retains a more important position than Glenn, so maybe that weighs in her favour.

And, let us not forget this, that is must be that she falls to the power of Lavos in one time-line. That leads to some interesting plot-elements, though I can't rightly remember at this time how Hadriel reconciled that with this game - I think it is two different timelines. But nonetheless, one could bring in a concept of being unable to avoid fate - I think I'll suggest this to Hadriel - and have Schala in the end fall to Lavos, preluding CC. Now, there are a myriad of literary possibilities this opens up. For example, she then takes on the role of Crono from the first one, the character who 'dies'. Cliched? No. Because what one could do beyond this is make it a constant fear in her mind, an ever-present darkness of prophecy and foreboding ever and again foreshadowed. She may always be in mortal fear of Lavos, whom she nearly avoided, finding her, and more than once speak prophetically that she's only delayed what's inevitable. That way, there's no secret to what happens to Schala, no surprise - and thus breaking the cliche - everyone knows it outside the game, and even inside the characters fear it. But the tension comes from knowing that the outcome must be. Like the Iliad. Everyone knows Patroklos is to die. When he dons Akhilleus' armour, ever person listening to Homer would have known that he was marching to his death. Homer himself says it. When Akhilleus prays to Zeus that Patroklos might have glory, and return safely, it says that Zeus heard his prayer, and answered the first, but disallowed the second. There is no secret here. The sorrow is in knowing what will happening, seeing the aristeia of Patroklos and knowing it is only leading to his death. The agony of seeing a hero treading a path to their own destruction. This could be done to Schala very well, I think. All through the game, all the people playing it know she is doomed. But that's what would make her character a sombre one, for she would be someone who is a living-dead, as it were. And then, when the end arrives, and she sees her dismal destiny manifest in all its hateful terror before her, all understanding and realization descends upon her mind, and she knows what she has only feared: that all her paths and deeds have only led her into the TD's clutches. This is one of the marking points of Classical tragedy, I think. The realization. Take a play like Antigone. All along the audience knows that the king Kreon, by his good intentions, is setting the path for his own doom. But it makes the end no less terrible.

So, Hadriel, what do you think of that? Would you want to make Schala a tragic heroine? She certainly seems to have a sombre enough mind to make it work perfectly.

Oh, one more thing, and this is just a quirk of mine due to having read some high stories lately. Why not make this story semi-epic? Have narrative words here and there, or at least prophetic ones by ones such as Janus, that show a full knowledge of the ending. Or, even better, write an epic proem at the beginning, outlining the story. It lends a surety and confidence to writing. I don't mean a history to what happened, or an obscure preamble, but a direct outline of that basics of what is going to happen. Does that seem counter-productive? Maybe, but since both Homer and Virgil pull it off, and it is the style of epic, I don't think so. It says 'I'm not going to keep a secret what happens; I'm going to tell you, because my story-writing is good enough to stand apart.' I can't rightly think of one right now, but consider it. And remember in your consideration the Iliad, and how none of its power is lost because it begins by saying 'this tale is about the suffering caused by the anger of Akhilleus.'

Janus Zeal

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Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
« Reply #559 on: December 08, 2005, 05:09:42 pm »
Hmmm, I like it Daniel. All of it.

Chrono'99

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« Reply #560 on: December 08, 2005, 05:22:03 pm »
I always thought Glenn was cooler than Schala (*prepare my flame-shield* :P ), but... well, I believe in a totally neutral way that Schala as a playable character would be better than Glenn. Storywise it makes more sense as Janus Zeal and Daniel noted (although a reason for Glenn not fighting alongside Crono and co. would have to be made up). Technically it's also way easier to make battle sprites for Schala than for Glenn. Since she's a really quiet magic user, she'll always more or less stand right upright with just her hands moving. Glenn on the other hand is a swordman and it'd be harder to make running/jumping/attacking sprites for him (creating them from Frog's own sprites would probably not work).

Anyway, I hope the Masamune would play a part in the game plot even without a playable Glenn. It's holy in CT. It's evil in RD and CC (although in RD only mentioned, not seen). There has to be some kind of explanation in CT:CE even if the 1005AD Fall of Guardia doesn't take place in the game (that's what I read on an old topic).

Anyway... mmh... imitating the Iliad? Dunno if we can hope to make something as perfect as that...

Hadriel

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« Reply #561 on: December 08, 2005, 07:51:02 pm »
The Masamune's kind of pointless without someone to use it.

Schala was always intended to fall back into Lavos' grasp anyway.  As for handling the style of the story and the ending, the more epic, the better.  The prologue demo from CT could very well be replaced with something like an epic poem backed up by a demo of the gameplay and some cutscenes, almost like the opening to CC.  A good deal of excellent stories have done this.  The actual narrative would be something like the beginning of Final Fantasy X, where Tidus tells us to listen to his story; from the way he talks about it, you just know he's been through hell and back over broken glass.

@Janus: The thing about using Glenn is that we'd have to replace Ayla with Glenn to do it, which would leave Schala with Frog's sprites, which are shorter than normal.  If we put Schala in Ayla's spot, Glenn would have to remain a frog.  I suppose the only other option would be to cut out a sprite that we aren't going to use and replace it with a sprite set for human Glenn.  One of the caveman sprites could fulfill this function nicely.

There is a problem with this: I don't know how to write an epic poem.  I'd like a sort of fusion between that and the poem at the start of CC, but I'd need some kind of line limit based on the memory capacity of the prologue.

What happens to Schala in the story thus far is that after the Ocean Palace disaster, she and the Mammon Machine end up trapped in a state of temporal flux, torn between Lavos' time bubble and the physical world.  The team's intrusion frees her, but she still retains a connection to Lavos' dwelling.  After El Nido, the Frozen Flame ends up revealing Lavos' plan.  I might end up putting back in part of the scheme that was taken out.  It's been established that Lavos' explorations of sentient nature have left him with an intense hatred of the universe and all things in it.  However, we may still be able to use the ruined world to that end.  Even the Lavoid race wouldn't expect Lavos, their mightiest and wisest sage, to blaspheme life itself and turn a planet into a living weapon.  The defiled Earth would likely be turned against Gaspar in an effort to control the End of Time, and thus the universe itself.

So, should we put the ruined world part back or not?  I always did think it kicked arse.

I was also thinking that in El Nido, the Masamune scenario could either come full circle or begin to, by its contact with the Frozen Flame.  Alternatively, the entire party could make a trip into Zurvan at the end, in order to find Gaspar and fight back the Frozen Flame with the Chrono Break, and the Masamune could be affected in this way.  Being subjected to the constant screaming of countless souls being devoured by Lavos probably doesn't do good things for your health.

Daniel Krispin

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Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
« Reply #562 on: December 08, 2005, 08:31:05 pm »
I meant a proem, not poem. The proem is the introductory paragraph. The one of the Iliad goes: 'Sing, goddess, the anger of Peleus' son Achilleus, and its ruin which put pains thousandfold upon the Achaians, hurled in their multitudes to the house of Hades strong souls of warriors, and the will of Zeus was accomplished since that time when first there stood in division of conflict Atreus' son the lord of men and brilliant Achilleus.' See? The Iliad summed up into a paragraph. That's a proem. The Odyssey has one as well, and so does the Aeneid, though I prefer that for the Iliad (for which I have it memorized.) It essentially tells an outline of the story and, almost always, invokes the muses. Now that, given the right mood, I actually know how to do - my style's been leaning toward it in the last few months. I suggested a similar thing to the Novel Project, actually (but on that day I actually was able to come up with one.) What I wrote there, for Chrono Trigger itself, went so:
Come, goddess, and rest upon me.
Give me the words to speak of these things
Of ruin and the wrack of worlds,
Despair and the falling of empires.
For such was the mighty power of old
Demon and terror from the bosom of mighty Ouranos
Come to torment the children of earth.
Yet come! Speak now, and tell me of they,
Who through great travail, and many roads,
Yea from east to west, from yesterday to tomorrow,
Did stand in contest, valiant against this terror,
Come, goddess, tell me these things, of battle and woe,
and brilliant glory! Speak through me, this tale of ages.

See? That's what I mean. Well, I intend to reply to the rest of what you said Hadriel - you had some rather interesting ideas there that I wanted to support you on, but it's suppertime and I must for now make all hate to depart.

Okay... yeah, I think you should keep the ruined world thing in there. Also, maybe, the trip to Zurvan. If it's done right, that is. It could be interesting. Make it a place of absolute quiet and peace. Do you know CS Lewis' 'The Magician's Nephew'? That's the prequel to The Lion the Witch and the Wardrobe. The wood between the worlds that figures in it might be just the way Zurvan should be done. If you don't know the story, I'd admonish you read this part, just to get an idea of it.

Hadriel

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Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
« Reply #563 on: December 12, 2005, 02:05:27 am »
Quote from: Daniel Krispin
Come, goddess, and rest upon me.
Give me the words to speak of these things
Of ruin and the wrack of worlds,
Despair and the falling of empires.
For such was the mighty power of old
Demon and terror from the bosom of mighty Ouranos
Come to torment the children of earth.
Yet come! Speak now, and tell me of they,
Who through great travail, and many roads,
Yea from east to west, from yesterday to tomorrow,
Did stand in contest, valiant against this terror,
Come, goddess, tell me these things, of battle and woe,
and brilliant glory! Speak through me, this tale of ages.


I'd been meaning to say this all weekend; reading that was like getting hit in the face with the sledgehammer of great writing.  I'm trying to write something similar in style but different in content to that.  I'm in the process of summoning up a Level 9 Poetry Battlizer Attack.  Considering that I invented that just now, it might take a couple of days.

Daniel Krispin

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Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
« Reply #564 on: December 14, 2005, 03:17:16 am »
You praise me unduely, I think. For the first, I wrote that rather quickly, and didn't think much of it at the time (though, now, on second glance, it isn't so bad, though it's not as good as may be.) And, secondly, it's not really that hard to do, and I cannot take any credit for essentially taking standard epic form and throwing CT's story into it. It's pretty normal to invoke the muse, and then give an explanation of what is to happen. Knowing that, it's not really all that hard. The hardest part is making it sound poetic, because I'm more of a prose writer. Anyway, if you read the intro to the Iliad, the Odyssey, and the Aeneid once through, and then proceed to write your thing, you should have no problem with those examples running through your head. Just invoke the muse, then think of the CE story, consider it in a grand sweep by its major plot and theme, and essentially say what your story's going to be about. Like a cover-letter or an abstract to a report, actually.

Hadriel

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Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
« Reply #565 on: December 17, 2005, 06:26:30 pm »
I used a couple of other sources besides the Homeric tales, and here's what I came up with.  This week was finals week, so as you can imagine, I was busy studying.

Arise, spirits of pain divine
Dreams of damnation and blade of dreams fill my heart
With naught but the knowledge of the flow of time
And its goddess, the exquisite agony of sin.
Fate renders itself a mere shadow of the veil,
The veil of reality rent asunder by nature itself.
Possibilities, purpose, and the universe itself unify,
Rendered one rage against the echoes born of Tartaros.
O mighty sea of dreams, empower me.
Invoke within me the ancient tale…
Summon it and empower me to stop the end.
For the sake of all life, and all worlds…
Let us journey once again unto the breach of time…


Not the best intro in the entire world, but it's open to criticism and editing.

As for the story, it occurred to me in the shower, where all good ideas occur to me, that with the Chrono Break in the team's possession, they possess the capacity to destroy the entire Lavoid race, albeit at the expense of their own and many other worlds.  this would seem to be the only feasible way of using it, since its only function is to terminate a lifeform from the timestream.  I think perhaps that the El Nido scenario could play an intervening part in this.  Of course, by the time of the El Nido scenario, they don't have the Chrono Break; it's only obtained afterward.

I swear to the Force, I'm going to finish the CE scenario over the break.  Somebody hold me to that.

After reviewing the entire storyline, I think we can use all of what was in there before, along with the new elements.  I'm thinking that the Frozen Flame can be captured at El Nido, and divulge the main thrust of Lavos' plan to conquer the universe.  After that, it can be plugged into FATE, where Belthasar can figure out how to use its powers to forcibly project Calasperan back to the beginning of life on Earth; the availability of this option will depend on what one does during the El Nido scenario and how many sidequests one completes.  If all requirements are fulfilled, the "dungeon sequence" will be skipped and the player will be awarded several uber-items for use in the final battle, as well as in the Colosseum.  Sound OK?

Also, as for Lavos' Big Crunch plan, that will need to be qualified in the script.  Most cosmologists believe that the universe is actually accelerating in its expansion, and thus a Big Crunch is unlikely.  This will need to be mentioned; it will engender an added sense of awe to Lavos' power.

Daniel Krispin

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Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
« Reply #566 on: December 17, 2005, 09:46:01 pm »
I must say that, in context of Crimson Echoes and all, it is most excellent, save at one minor part that may just be a quirks of mine: the first line, where you say 'pain divine'. I have never liked the adjective placed after the noun in English, and rather think it sounds too assuming. To my own ears at least, it would sound better to say 'Arise, spirits of divine pain,'. But other than that, job well done. If I dare say so, it sounds as good as the opening to Chrono Cross, despite it having a different mood. Not so wingedly carefree and reminiscing, but rather on a darker and more tragic and foreshadowing note. Well done, I hope to see that in the final game.

Hadriel

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« Reply #567 on: December 18, 2005, 12:54:15 am »
I did try to draw a little bit from the CC opening for it.  In case it isn't obvious, Janus is the narrator there; the mood is much like his spell for summoning Lavos.  I threw in a little bit of the linguistic style from Pious Augustus' opening soliloquy from Eternal Darkness, in which he laments that he once did not have the power that the Ancients have bestowed upon him as a lich.

Daniel Krispin

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Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
« Reply #568 on: December 18, 2005, 03:35:10 am »
Quote from: Hadriel
I did try to draw a little bit from the CC opening for it.  In case it isn't obvious, Janus is the narrator there; the mood is much like his spell for summoning Lavos.  I threw in a little bit of the linguistic style from Pious Augustus' opening soliloquy from Eternal Darkness, in which he laments that he once did not have the power that the Ancients have bestowed upon him as a lich.


Pius Augustus... dutiful and revered. Strange name for something that is recalled from Hades.

NOTE: HADRIEL, THIS ALL CAME TO ME, AND I FIGURE IT FOR A RATHER GOOD IDEA. PLEASE DO READ THIS THROUGH AND CONSIDER WHAT I SAY... OH, AND TELL ME WHAT YOU THINK OF IT!

Anyway, that does make a rather good speech for Janus. Actually, here's an idea for it, and do consider it, as it strikes me well and I think it could work wondrously. You'll be using it as the opening, of course, but why not put it in the end as well? You could have Janus, at the very end, confronted by some strange people somewhere - or here's an idea: the race of Lavos themselves! - who are wondering at what this great travail and tale that has passed has been about, from beginning to end. And as the last of the screens darkens, one of these beings asks him of this, and commands him to tell. And Janus, in the fashion of a poet of the Zeal court (and considering how he is in RD, I think that Janus has the ability to be very formal and well-spoken, if he so wishes, best in all pursuits of mind and body, of learning and skill) stands forward, sweeps his cloak, and begins to speak this. Imagine! The end is Janus, before the people of Lavos himself, as a guest-friend and, I should think, a peer, telling a grand tale, like some new Odysseus before a gracious Phaikaian king. Long-suffering Odysseus... it could be said for Janus as well. And Odysseus had his homecoming... why should Janus remain forever in suffering?


Honestly, I think that would make for a wonderful end - it would seem as though the story has gone full-circle, and what was prophecied at the beginning has come and gone, and is being retold, and so on. Yes, I really think this could work wonderfully. I'd imagine the people of Lavos to be a very austere and ancient group, loving of wisdom and knowledge and tales, and all that sort of thing. Imagine... oh, like some messenger play, where the people of some expedition wait for the tidings, and when they come in the form of a messenger they are grim, things of woe and ruin. Like Aeschylus' Persians, wherein a messenger speaks of the destruction of their armies at Salamis. I can imagine these ancient lords of Lavos' people - maybe even the father of Lavos himself - sitting in council, and aghast to hear that their mission has gone so astray. And so it could end, with Janus* standing before them, great and powerful as the last son of Zeal (and in this, I'm thinking of how I've spoken of him at the end of Twilight of Fate), the equal of this great people. They would weep to hear of the fall of such a race as Zeal, and be heartbroken that one of their own betrayed an entire world in such a way. Oh, dammit all, I cannot quite tell it as I wish, or speak properly of the feeling of it. To me, it seems like such a grand final flourish - Janus, the mighty tale-teller, standing there in counsel before the lords of Lavos' people. For who else but he could do such a thing? Who else of humanity would be worthy, or might enough, to be counted equal amongst the lords of that race in keeness of mind and strength of power? With Zeal downfallen, only he, the last prince and lord. Do you see what I'm getting at? Got it! That's what I was thinking of. Alright, here's the final point, the feel I was going for: Horatio in Hamlet. At the end, Fortinbras strides in saying, what is all this? And Horatio there says he will speak of these things, of foul things, and all that sort. That's what I was thinking of, though mingled with a more programatic proem and formal epic, as you wrote. Think of the feeling of the end of Hamlet when Horatio is about to speak all this to Fortinbras - then think of Janus before the lords of Lavos' race.

*Janus I see as a transitory character, and one that could do well to remove himself from his darkness - much as it seems to be the hallmark of the character of Magus, it seems to me that it is rather a sickness or shadow ever-present upon him, and masks his true self even from himself. That for all his dark-earned power, it is just a shadow of what he could be free from it, in full nobility and grandeur such as a lord of Zeal should truly be, shining like an angel amidst humanity. Now, the whole grim sorcerer thing is wonderful, of course, but needn't last forever. It's only his warrior guise, a mask and cloak borne up by need of the harsh endeavours he is subjected to. And when the journey is over... it is cast aside. He returns to bright glory, setting aside the dark form of his younger years. I, personally, do that transition very quickly in my story - all at once, at the defeat of Lavos, because I consider Lavos himself the root of that darkness and that, undefeated, it forever prey's on Janus' mind...an oath that he swore being unfulfilled, that being to kill Lavos. So it his oath, his vows, that chain him. They limit him and drive him to harshness and anger. Honestly, I think it would be immensely interesting if he would of a suddenly change at the end: become bright and glorious like some heavenly thing, like a sudden spring after a long harsh winter. I read recently that Tolkien had this idea of an inverse to the typical classical turn for the worse: a turn for the better. Say, the coming of the Rohirrim. It leaves one with such joy and relief, and feeling of things being better. Anyway, I'm rambling, but the thing is, Janus' character has so far in Chrono Trigger been rather static in his tragedy - to suddenly wrench that way and give him a noble and bright glory would be more touching, I think, than any character death could now do. Oh, here's what I was thinking of with the more glorious version of Janus:
Though it had ever been his way to speak rashly and in pride, such things had now departed from him forever. The dark sorcerer was no more, for he was robed in garments of shimmering white, traced with weavings of gold and silver that reflected the sheen of the sun. He seemed as a cloud behind which the sun hides, yet even as the heavenly light burns at its verges, and flames from behind in hidden glory, his power could not be fully veiled. Truly here was the last prince and lord of Zeal, and his words were as the wisdom that brings low all foolishness. His countenance bore none of the rage, neither the hate nor pain that it had carried in all the long years of his life before. A joyous peace had descended upon his mind, and it shone like a starfire in his eyes. He was his true self once again, such as he had not been since before his memory could recall.

So please, tell me what you think of this idea. Do you understand what I'm trying to say? I think that Janus the aoidos, Janus the poet, would be a wonderful conclusion to the thing, and would show the regal side of his character, and in power standing as a peer beside the people of Lavos, as a final grand and joyful flourish.

Janus Zeal

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« Reply #569 on: December 18, 2005, 02:53:12 pm »
...

My God Daniel, that's beautiful. I... can't really describe it as anything else. If there is one thing in the story I know I MUST see, it's your dream of Janus being recognised.

Quote
Though it had ever been his way to speak rashly and in pride, such things had now departed from him forever. The dark sorcerer was no more, for he was robed in garments of shimmering white, traced with weavings of gold and silver that reflected the sheen of the sun. He seemed as a cloud behind which the sun hides, yet even as the heavenly light burns at its verges, and flames from behind in hidden glory, his power could not be fully veiled. Truly here was the last prince and lord of Zeal, and his words were as the wisdom that brings low all foolishness. His countenance bore none of the rage, neither the hate nor pain that it had carried in all the long years of his life before. A joyous peace had descended upon his mind, and it shone like a starfire in his eyes. He was his true self once again, such as he had not been since before his memory could recall.


Reading this while listening to the Chrono Symphonic remix of "To Far Away Times" I was blown away.