Author Topic: Evolution in the Series  (Read 19338 times)

BROJ

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Re: Evolution in the Series
« Reply #30 on: March 28, 2008, 06:53:15 pm »
[Reference]
Quote from: BROJ
First consider that Lavos is creature that can naturally bend/break the laws of time. Does that ability derive to every part of his body? (I am not sure this has been discussed in another topic or not...) If it does, that could possibly mean that the Frozen Flame could have traveled 235,000,000 years in the past on impact as a chaotic reaction to being broken off.
[/Reference]

Quote from: Thought
...and IF humans are almost totally "evolved" when Lavos lands
I don't remember even alluding to that... :wink:

Quote from: Thought
then the Frozen Flame must have gotten to earth before lavos (hence, it was sent into the past and evolved humans then).
On a 5-D(Time Error scale) it arrived *after* Lavos showed up.

Quote from: Thought
Even assuming that this were a possible explanation, it doesn't address another problem that is equally critical and makes this one slightly nonsensical; humans didn't evolve from 65,000,000 to 12000.
No they "evolved" from 300,000,000 B.C.(theorized Frozen Flame location in time; note the 235,000,000 years bit in my previous post.) to 65,000,000 B.C..

Quote from: Thought
Even if the Frozen Flame traveled into the past, there should have still been some form change during those many years. Indeed, Chronopolis humans should be even more unlike the image of -pre-frozen flame "humans" than the 65,000,000 humans are.
To elaborate on my theory: Human may not have been Homo Sapiens(to put it in earth terms), but rather they may have been closer to Cro Magnon; where the 'Earthbound' did not come into continuous contact with the Frozen Flame; evolving into the standard 1.0 modern humans; while the 'Enlightened' did; evolving into the 2.0 post-modern(Magic capable) humans. Because of the continued exposure the two human races became *so* different that they eventually separated themselves from each other; one race created Zeal, another became enslaved to the former.  Most of the enlightened died during the Zeal disaster; as a result 1.0 humans became dominant and the magic trait, from 2.0, possibly bred into the actual modern humans(of at least 600 A.D.+) became dormant; only to be awakened by Spekkio and those who created the 'Elements' in Chrono Cross.


« Last Edit: March 28, 2008, 07:00:34 pm by BROJ »

Thought

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Re: Evolution in the Series
« Reply #31 on: March 28, 2008, 07:13:44 pm »
I don't remember even alluding to that... :wink:

That is one of the reasons I waited so long before reviving this thread; I knew that if I tried to represent other people's theories I'd get something wrong. But in this case, humans being "almost totally evolved" is more of a state of the game rather than what anyone alluded to (or are you referring to that entire part of the if/then statement?). Ayla is capable of abstract concepts, her tribe is in a Neolithic stage of progress, physical features are on par, and if I had to guess I'd say crossbreeding would be possible and successful (one of the definitions of a species is that two members of that species can have sex and produce a fertile child; if the child is sterile, then they aren't actually a single species). Other than speech patterns (and the series needs to be stabbed for the poor use of accents throughout it), there is nothing that indicates Ayla's people are less "human" than those in 2300 AD


No they "evolved" from 300,000,000 B.C.(theorized Frozen Flame location in time; note the 235,000,000 years bit in my previous post.) to 65,000,000 B.C..

Which is actually enough time for an entire separate Kingdom to be developed. But the point was, from 65,000,000 BC to 12,000 BC there still should have been some evolution. While your theory establishes why when Chrono and Co are in 65,000,000 the "humans" are "human," there should still be a very drastic change in form between 65,000,000 and 12,000.

Of course, a fundamental potential flaw with that criticism is that I am assuming evolution in the Chronoverse is comparable to evolution in the real world (to note, if I recall my anthropology courses correctly, the Order of Primates was becoming defined, in the Real World, around 65,000,000 BC)

Anywho, I’ll need to consider your various points more before making real comments regarding it (these were more of reactions).

Boo the Gentleman Caller

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Re: Evolution in the Series
« Reply #32 on: March 28, 2008, 07:43:09 pm »
What about this...

The Frozen Flame is a catalyst used by Lavos.  It is sent to a barren, lifeless world, albeit, it is sent to one that has the elements that COULD make up life.  So billions of years ago the Frozen Flame crashes into the planet and thus jumpstarts the creation process - starting with primordial ooze.  Then, when enough time has elapsed (billions of years), Lavos can show up and do what a Lavos does.

BROJ

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Re: Evolution in the Series
« Reply #33 on: March 28, 2008, 07:43:54 pm »
there is nothing that indicates Ayla's people are less "human" than those in 2300 AD
Sorry, you lost me there; '2300 A.D.'?

Edit: oh, I see; what I meant was after the Zeal disaster the Earthbound became the dominant race and the Enlightened were assimilated into the collective(human) bloodline.

Which is actually enough time for an entire separate Kingdom to be developed. But the point was, from 65,000,000 BC to 12,000 BC there still should have been some evolution. While your theory establishes why when Chrono and Co are in 65,000,000 the "humans" are "human," there should still be a very drastic change in form between 65,000,000 and 12,000.
Quote from: BROJ
Because of the continued exposure the two human races became *so* different that they eventually separated themselves from each other; one race created Zeal, another became enslaved to the former.

Of course, a fundamental potential flaw with that criticism is that I am assuming evolution in the Chronoverse is comparable to evolution in the real world (to note, if I recall my anthropology courses correctly, the Order of Primates was becoming defined, in the Real World, around 65,000,000 BC)
Actually that's when the dinosaurs went extinct. (source from Walking with Dinosaurs; Azala would be ashamed!  :lol:)

Anywho, I’ll need to consider your various points more before making real comments regarding it (these were more of reactions).
Very well...

Thought

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Re: Evolution in the Series
« Reply #34 on: March 31, 2008, 01:26:43 pm »
The Frozen Flame is a catalyst used by Lavos.  It is sent to a barren, lifeless world, albeit, it is sent to one that has the elements that COULD make up life.  So billions of years ago the Frozen Flame crashes into the planet and thus jumpstarts the creation process - starting with primordial ooze.  Then, when enough time has elapsed (billions of years), Lavos can show up and do what a Lavos does.

Boo, that is a nice theory but, unless I am misunderstanding you (and that is always a likely option), that would then imply that all life is a result of Lavos' influence, not just humans. I certainly got the impression from the games that the Frozen Flames influence was supposed to be limited to just humans.

Sorry, you lost me there; '2300 A.D.'?

Edit: oh, I see; what I meant was after the Zeal disaster the Earthbound became the dominant race and the Enlightened were assimilated into the collective(human) bloodline.

Yes, but what I meant is that between 65,000,000 BC and 2,300 AD there should have been a great degree of evolution taking place in the "human" genome. While there is a cultural distinction between the people in the Ioka village and the people in the Earthbound Village (or the people in the Arris Dome), there is no apparent genetic distinction (except for the apparent ability to use magic). Sans any theory, we should expect to see a significant degree of evolution between these two time periods (and indeed, between 65,000,000 and 12,000).

However, I misrepresented what you had meant, it seems, in that you are maintaining that 65,000,000 people are not humans (putting aside for the moment that Cro-Magnon's were still Homo Sapiens; same species, different sub-species, if even that). Sorry about that. Would you say that your theory, then, is similar to how I represented theory #4?

I suppose part of the disconnect might also be to what extent we see "magic" as being a significant step in evolution. That the Enlightened individuals and Earthbound are still capable of interbreeding indicates to me that magic is not a significant step; it alone cannot account for the entirety of the evolution that the Early Human Diagram in Chrono Cross suggests. At least, I am taking the Early Human Diagram as an indication of the degree of change, even if the specific instances of that change are not accurate.

Note, the Encyclopedia gets around this by assuming that the diagram is comparing an even-earlier-version of "humans" (or human ancestors) than is seen in Chrono Trigger to modern humans. This, however, makes the diagram utterly meaningless as it no longer illustrates Lavos' influence alone, but Lavos' and nature's, making it impossible to determine what is and is not the result of Lavos' influence.

Actually that's when the dinosaurs went extinct. (source from Walking with Dinosaurs; Azala would be ashamed!  :lol:)

That too. More than one thing happens at a time, however. Even in the real world, mammals were around when the dinosaurs went extinct. To illustrate, the Class Mamalia developed between the Permian Period and the Jurassic Period (thus, very roughly, between 275,000,000 and 175,000,000). So, as mentioned, if I am remembering my anthropology course correctly, the Order Primate was developing during 65,000,000. That is significant as this is too early for even Australopithecines (indeed, the split between old world and new world monkeys wouldn't have occurred yet!). If we compare real world evolution to Chronovolution (as the Early Human Diagram seems to imply that we should), Lavos' influence on humanity should be on par with changing proto-primates into Homo Sapien Sapiens. Yet the games also indicate that Ayla's people, who are at the best a subspecies (Homo Sapien Iokien?), were already present at the time period (thus indicating that real world evolution shouldn't be applied).

However, looking over the script again, perhaps the entire discussion of "Evolution in the Series" is a misguided one. To quote the Dragonian Record from CC (emphasis added):

Quote from: Dragonian Record
However, the timid '"apes"'
who had lived hidden in
the forests...
   
...came into contact with
the crimsom flame
that fell from the sky,
and evolved into '"humans."'

Or perhaps it was
not '"evolution,"'
but '"transformation."'


In this way, humans
increased in number
and filled the earth...

The fearsome '"progeny of Lavos"'
who, like their progenitor,
began to devour our mother planet.

Humans changed between 65,000,000. Perhaps, then, the implication is that if humans were the dominate species on the planet and if Lavos never fell, they'd have "evolved" (or changed) more along the lines of the Reptites, as beings close to the planet (which then implies that there might be a Apeopolis in an alternate dimension with a plasma lifeform called the Gorilla God).

Certainly, a hallmark of the Reptites and Mystics (two species presumably not tainted by Lavos) is their diversity. They aren't species that act independently but in tandem with other creatures (Imps, Gargoyles, Naga-Ette, bats, and all sorts of "monsters" on one hand and Reptites, Winged Apes, Volcanos, etc on the other). Indeed, we see the early humans possibly starting this behavior (through there use of the Dactyls). Even Zeal, having recently switched to Lavos' power, interacted with the Dreamspecies and the Nu, whereas after that point Humans are a solitary species, not interacting willingly with the other lifeforms of the planet.

And to quote one of the Chronopolis Ghosts:

Quote from: Ghost
Beginning with a cerebral
neocortex, which only
exists in higher mammals...
The anthropod brain enlarged
at an accelerating pace until it
became the human brain we know.
Could the reason for the
abnormal development of the
human brain be the biological
contamination caused by Lavos?

This could be taken as an indication that the human brain's size is abnormal (and it could also be taken as an indication that the Reptites are either mammals or do not have a neocortex), or it could be taken as an indication that the size is proper but the actual function of the various parts of the brain are flawed (the PVN, or the brain stem, or the hemispheres, etc). The difference intellectually between Ayla and Lucca, then, might not be in the nature of the size or potential of their brains but rather how they are hardwired.

And finally:

Quote from: prisoner, Terra Tower
In the eyes of the Dragons,
we humans are the foes...

A brain that has developed abnormally
to 3 times the original size in the
span of 3 million years...

We humans have evolved at an
enormous rate because of our
contact with Lavos's flame...

In a sense, mankind is Lavos's offspring...

We humans are extraneous to this planet...

This last quote, then, is the troubling one that implies we should apply real world evolution to the series. I would propose, then, that it might be best to assume that this is the result of dragonian propaganda and the individual's own misconceptions and errors.

This isn't to say that we can't apply some degree of evolution to humans, but rather real world evolution doesn't fit and the stated period of that evolution are nonsensical so they can be discarded as sources of valid criticism.

We can still have that humans, under Lavos' influence, developed into Zealians (with the Earthbound being influenced by not to the same extent), which then re-converged into modern humans (a fine and commendable interpretation, if real-world evolution is not held to). Or even that humans evolved into Mystics as well (I do like that theory).

And even in discarding the restrictions of real world evolution, we are still conforming to many instances of "evolution" as presented in the game.

Boo the Gentleman Caller

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Re: Evolution in the Series
« Reply #35 on: March 31, 2008, 01:33:10 pm »
actually, i was referring to ALL life being a byproduct of lavos or the frozen flame.  after all, lavos DID assimilate all the DNA on the planet to create his final form.

granted, i don't totally buy into the theory myself.  just analyzing!

BROJ

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Re: Evolution in the Series
« Reply #36 on: March 31, 2008, 01:49:15 pm »
Quote from: Thought
However, I misrepresented what you had meant, it seems, in that you are maintaining that 65,000,000 people are not humans (putting aside for the moment that Cro-Magnon's were still Homo Sapiens; same species, different sub-species, if even that). Sorry about that. Would you say that your theory, then, is similar to how I represented theory #4?
Kinda, except the frozen flame is the cause of the evolutionary disconnect.

Quote from: Thought
While there is a cultural distinction between the people in the Ioka village and the people in the Earthbound Village (or the people in the Arris Dome), there is no apparent genetic distinction (except for the apparent ability to use magic). Sans any theory, we should expect to see a significant degree of evolution between these two time periods (and indeed, between 65,000,000 and 12,000).
There was an 'extra' village in the Pre-Release. Perhaps that was intended to be for the tribal ancestors of Zeal...

Thought

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Re: Evolution in the Series
« Reply #37 on: March 31, 2008, 02:22:05 pm »
actually, i was referring to ALL life being a byproduct of lavos or the frozen flame.  after all, lavos DID assimilate all the DNA on the planet to create his final form.

Ah, meaning the exact thing that I thought you were over looking. Very clever (and for some reason that now has given me the image of Lavos being a pokemon... must be the animated plant aspect of his nature).

But assimilation of all DNA doesn't imply creation of all DNA; though it would be in lines with panspermia. Yet if the Entity is analogous to the Gaia Hypothesis, then that would imply that even the Entity is created by Lavos (potentially interesting still, as the Entity is more like a cow that is raised for its meat).

There was an 'extra' village in the Pre-Release. Perhaps that was intended to be for the tribal ancestors of Zeal...

The Pre-Release is eternally fascinating, but if that other village was to be the ancestors of the Zealians then wouldn't that mean that there would be even less change in the years between 65,000,000 and 12,000 (and thus, even more at odds with expectations)?

Boo the Gentleman Caller

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Re: Evolution in the Series
« Reply #38 on: March 31, 2008, 10:32:02 pm »
oooh!!!  but wouldn't THAT be interesting?!?!  the entity - the very planet itself - and all of it's various lifeforms, all created by lavos, rise up to fight their very creator.

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Re: Evolution in the Series
« Reply #39 on: April 01, 2008, 05:33:58 am »
But that would mean turning Lavos into 'god' basically, and then we'd just be working w/a BoF rip-off...>_>

Anacalius

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Re: Evolution in the Series
« Reply #40 on: April 01, 2008, 02:32:16 pm »
But that would mean turning Lavos into 'god' basically, and then we'd just be working w/a BoF rip-off...>_>

Yeah, I think we can all agree that lavos is not "God".

Thought

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Re: Evolution in the Series
« Reply #41 on: April 01, 2008, 02:59:12 pm »
Well that sort of depends on how much dualism the designers wanted in the series. Lavos is a physical being, thus he could be equated with the dualistic concept of the material (which is evil in Dualism, and under some forms of gnostics sects is the same as God in the Torah), while the Entity is an abstract being with no apparent form, thus representing the spiritual (which is good and associated with Jesus in the Bible).

So in dualism, Lavos could be a "god."

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Re: Evolution in the Series
« Reply #42 on: April 01, 2008, 03:21:03 pm »
Well that sort of depends on how much dualism the designers wanted in the series. Lavos is a physical being, thus he could be equated with the dualistic concept of the material (which is evil in Dualism, and under some forms of gnostics sects is the same as God in the Torah), while the Entity is an abstract being with no apparent form, thus representing the spiritual (which is good and associated with Jesus in the Bible).

So in dualism, Lavos could be a "god."

Good point. Let's put it this way:
Lavos is not a "god" that created life in the Chronoverse. Did it have a large influence on life? I'd like to think so, but I think to say it's responsible for life is farfetched.

Thought

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Re: Evolution in the Series
« Reply #43 on: April 01, 2008, 03:57:47 pm »
Ah, but it could be responsible for trapping the spiritual in the material, if we run with the dualistic traits of the series. It didn't create life, it might have just imprissoned it in a form that we recognize.

...

And I don't really know what I am arguing this point as I don't think that it a valid extrapolation. On well.

BROJ

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Re: Evolution in the Series
« Reply #44 on: April 01, 2008, 09:46:59 pm »
There was an 'extra' village in the Pre-Release. Perhaps that was intended to be for the tribal ancestors of Zeal...

The Pre-Release is eternally fascinating, but if that other village was to be the ancestors of the Zealians then wouldn't that mean that there would be even less change in the years between 65,000,000 and 12,000 (and thus, even more at odds with expectations)?
Not necessarily; notice the small forest in the upper left of the village.

It's likely there is a Dactyl nest or something similar nearby; I mean how would they get there in the first place, the cliffs are certainly too high to be traveled by boat. It's also possible that this tribe could be an aggressive tribe trying to gather resources in far off lands through whatever means possible (notice the lack of resources in this isolated region compared with the rest of the world...); coupled with the influence of the frozen flame, this could *easily* drive evolution and technology as well as develop a sense of superiority in relation to the rest of the tribes, as it were. This is just speculation, of course. :wink:

Well that sort of depends on how much dualism the designers wanted in the series. Lavos is a physical being, thus he could be equated with the dualistic concept of the material (which is evil in Dualism, and under some forms of gnostics sects is the same as God in the Torah), while the Entity is an abstract being with no apparent form, thus representing the spiritual (which is good and associated with Jesus in the Bible).

So in dualism, Lavos could be a "god."
So could Google...
But, then again they say "God is in the details."

Ah, but it could be responsible for trapping the spiritual in the material, if we run with the dualistic traits of the series. It didn't create life, it might have just imprissoned it in a form that we recognize.
Like Deus and the Zohar Modifier, in Xenogears?