Author Topic: Evolution in the Series  (Read 7914 times)

Anacalius

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Re: Evolution in the Series
« Reply #45 on: April 02, 2008, 12:06:22 am »
Actually, this is a kind of a dumb theory, maybe, but:

Recall in 65,000,000 B.C. -
There really is no "evil" in humans, or really the world. The closest thing I can think of that is "evil" is Kino stealing the Gate Key. The reptites don't qualify as "evil" in my book, they're just a species fighting for survival, same as the "apes". What I'm trying to say is, what if Lavos was responsible for the "evil" in the Chronoverse, kinda like we're talking about with him being a God, I guess he would play the role of the devil in this one. I get my theory here from the fact that no true evil is expressed in humans in 65,000,000 B.C. (at least that I can remember) and the first point in history where "evil" pops up is in 12,000 B.C. and the Zeal episode, which is completely fueled by Lavos.


Did any of that even make any sense? o.o;


Actually, come to think of it, this kinda reminds me of Chrono Testament. In the Bible, Satan is cast from the heavens (recall that Lavos comes from the heavens), forever tainting the Earth. I guess Azala would be the first noted "evil" in the world then, with her act of calling Lavos (Which may or may not have actually been triggered by her, she could have just thought she was summoning it when it was already coming, note the Red Star was in the sky already). So is the "Entity" the God figure and Lavos the devil figure? Hmmm.

Again, I'm not sure if any of this is even making sense. x.x
« Last Edit: April 02, 2008, 12:18:55 am by Anacalius »

VincentGAU8

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Re: Evolution in the Series
« Reply #46 on: April 02, 2008, 03:55:19 am »
I don't think Azala was summoning Lavos..
Why would you summon something or someone that would eventually wipe out your whole race? Lavos
caused the ice age that wiped out the reptites, right.. :?
although your theory makes some sense to me, Lavos being the root of all evil in the Chronoverse..

V_Translanka

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Re: Evolution in the Series
« Reply #47 on: April 02, 2008, 06:05:06 am »
I don't think we're given enough information on the humans of 65,000,000 BC to say that there's no evil there at all...I mean, we're only really introduced to one main character, Ayla, who's a hero and very un-evil and her boy-toy, Kino, who's jealous, but certainly not evil...everyone else in the village just sorta has quips & we never really get to know their personalities enough to determine anything about their affinity for evil or not...

Thought

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Re: Evolution in the Series
« Reply #48 on: April 02, 2008, 10:54:23 am »
It's likely there is a Dactyl nest or something similar nearby; I mean how would they get there in the first place, the cliffs are certainly too high to be traveled by boat. It's also possible that this tribe could be an aggressive tribe trying to gather resources in far off lands through whatever means possible (notice the lack of resources in this isolated region compared with the rest of the world...); coupled with the influence of the frozen flame, this could *easily* drive evolution and technology as well as develop a sense of superiority in relation to the rest of the tribes, as it were. This is just speculation, of course. :wink:

But some very fun speculation.

Though, in all likelihood that village was just meant to be a stopping point on the way to or from the Singing Mountain (for whatever purpose that was... possibly that was where the party was dropped after the battle with Magus or some such), like how the other village was really just a stopping point on the way to the dactyl nest.

As for resources, that area might actually be rather fertile. Scale is, unfortunately, not exact. Chrono Cross, for example, takes place and a scale that would barely show up on the Chrono Trigger map (and the CT map may not, therefore, itself be the whole world). There could easily be resources we just aren't seeing.

Like Deus and the Zohar Modifier, in Xenogears?

Um... yes. Exactly like that...
<.<
>.>
Never played Xenogear, actually.

There really is no "evil" in humans, or really the world.

Well that really depends on how we want to define "evil" in Chrono Trigger. Is Lavos evil, for example, or just amoral? After all, he is just trying to survive. Is Magus evil? He uses foul means but desires to rid the earth of a blight (indeed, he fits as an anti-hero). Or in 1000 A.D., is there evil? If we don't see it there, does that mean it doesn't exist?

But there is also a question of if people had time to be evil in 65,000,000. Presumably, survival is hard; if you don't cooperate with the group, the group can't be bothered with you and your out on your own, where you probably can't make it on your own.

Anacalius

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Re: Evolution in the Series
« Reply #49 on: April 02, 2008, 12:32:34 pm »

<.<
>.>
Never played Xenogear, actually.

That's too bad, Xenogears is my favorite RPG for the PS1 (And one of my favorites overall). If you ever get a chance, somehow, definitely give it a try.

Well that really depends on how we want to define "evil" in Chrono Trigger. Is Lavos evil, for example, or just amoral? After all, he is just trying to survive. Is Magus evil? He uses foul means but desires to rid the earth of a blight (indeed, he fits as an anti-hero). Or in 1000 A.D., is there evil? If we don't see it there, does that mean it doesn't exist?

But there is also a question of if people had time to be evil in 65,000,000. Presumably, survival is hard; if you don't cooperate with the group, the group can't be bothered with you and your out on your own, where you probably can't make it on your own.


As for Lavos being evil, that's what we're discussing, I don't really know, but under this theory, yes, he would be.
Magus would also be evil under this theory, since all humans would be tainted with some kind of evil after Lavos' influence.
True point on the 1000 A.D. and 65,000,000 B.C. statements. Yes, we don't "see" any signs of evil, that's what leaves it up to speculation on here.
As for this theory... I kinda gave up on it already. It was interesting to think about, but I highly doubt that it's what was in mind when the series was made.
« Last Edit: April 02, 2008, 12:36:20 pm by Anacalius »

Thought

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Re: Evolution in the Series
« Reply #50 on: April 25, 2008, 12:30:35 pm »
Just occured to me that we have in-game confirmation that the Mystics are a branch of humanity, specifically a magic using branch (and if magic, then presumably effected by Lavos and the frozen flame).

Spekkio, when you first meet him, says the following (with the retranslation next to it):

Quote from: Spekkio
You are strong of will...!                 /    Hm?
That's why the Old One let you       /    You guys have it.
through.                                       /    Power of the heart......
                                                   /    I get it, that's why the old man outside let you
                                                   /    in here.

Long before you were born...         /    Long before you guys were born......
...there was a kingdom where        /    There was a kingdom that prospered by magic.
magic flourished.                          /
Everyone there could use it!          /     Everyone in that world used magic.
                                       
But in time, people began to abuse /    But that country grew addicted to magical power
their powers. It got so bad that no  /    and was destroyed......
one was allowed to use magic         /    After that, people became unable to use magic.
except wizards.                             /    Except for the Demons anyway.

But you have it...determination, I   /    But you guys've got it. Strength of the heart.
mean!                                          /
Magic needs power of the heart.     /
It needs inner strength.                 /    Magic's the heart's strength, power.

I bolded the important part. After the fall of zeal, no one who had been able to use magic was subsequently able to use magic... except for Demons/Wizards (which we know as Mystics).

Mystics are counted among people, which is a label usually applied only to humans. This very strongly implies that mystics aught be counted among humans. I'd propose the label Homo Enigmus or Homo Sapien Engimus, depending on if we count Mystics as a separate species of the same order or a subspecies of Homo Sapiens.

Given there behavior, I'd actually argue that they may have been effected more by the frozen flame than the Enlightened Ones. For one, they seem to be a rather violent lot (achieving a peaceful coexistence only with the help of the Entity via Chrono and Co). They have a close association is abominations such as the undead. The Mystic creature Retinite is in some way responsible for Fiona's forest dying out (and Fiona's Forest itself is strongly tied to the Entity, so Retinite is playing a lavos-like role). And it is by manipulating the Mystics that Magus was able to attempt to contact Lavos (thereby, offering a circumstantial connection between the Mystic and Lavos).

So, then, from that we might be able to actually propose a model of "human" evolution

                                / -----------Mystics
Prehistoric Humans ---
                                \       /-----Enlightened Ones ----\
                                  \----                                        --------- Modern Humans
                                        \-----Earth Bound ----------/


Or possibly:

                                 /-----------Earth Bound -------------------------\
Prehistoric Humans ----                                                                  --------- Modern Humans
                                 \                           /---- Enlightened Ones ---/
                                   \----Magic Users---
                                                             \----- Mystics


Or even:

                                 /-----------Earth Bound ----\
Prehistoric Humans ----                                        --------- Modern Humans
                                 \                                     /
                                   \---Enlightened Ones-----
                                                             \
                                                               \----- Mystics


Personally, I am inclined towards model 2 and 3, as an earlier deviation might also reduce the significance of Spekkio's "except" comment.

V_Translanka

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Re: Evolution in the Series
« Reply #51 on: April 25, 2008, 07:01:53 pm »
Hmmm...then could we use that to assume that Magus' physical transformation is less his own disguise and possibly more a result of his use of Magic & other such dark arts...? He was becoming a Mystic...?

Boo the Gentleman Caller

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Re: Evolution in the Series
« Reply #52 on: April 25, 2008, 08:19:55 pm »
Actually...  that makes SOME sense...

Thought

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Re: Evolution in the Series
« Reply #53 on: April 25, 2008, 10:13:05 pm »
Hmmm...then could we use that to assume that Magus' physical transformation is less his own disguise and possibly more a result of his use of Magic & other such dark arts...? He was becoming a Mystic...?

That would fit with Magus' description of his life

Quote from: Magus
Unghh...                                       /   ugugh......!
I won't...be beaten!                       /   I...... I won't be beaten......!

I survived the darkness to defeat   /   Lavos, I lived alone through the midst of
you, Lavos!                                  /   darkness to beat you!!

He could be refering to the dark ages, but that is a historical term so it is unlikely that Magus would have been using it in that context. Darkness probably better describes his living conditions. Not literal darkness, but dark magic and training, developed by the mystics (which are closer to Lavos, presumably, than most species). The taint that developed the Mystics into their form started to effect him.

From Lynx we have seen that power alone can caused genetic changes (Lynx being turned into a demi-human, Magus being turned into a mystic, etc).

Given the wide range of physical forms that mystics take, I wonder if their appearance is totally genetic. Given Sprigg, I'd say that the imps are the standard mystics with Gargoyles, Nagettes, and the sort being a bit less common, possibly themselves the result of the same darkness that Magus underwent (to varying degrees and varying effects depending on morphology).

I suppose to that evolution tree we could also add demi-humans somewhere. And I suspect Dwarves.

... actually, do we know anything about the state of humans in the Reptite dimension? The reptites won the war, that much is known, but even in the Keystone dimension not all reptites went extinct (the Green Ambler is such an example and the dinos in Giant's Claw imply that Reptites in general could survive). So then, might humans have survived in the Dragonian dimension as well, but as a scattered ruined race, possibly posing as an oppressed slave race? In pulling Dinopolis into the Keystone dimension, the Entity might have also brought along a few quasi humans from that dimension as well. Dwarves would seemingly be a good candidate for such a species. They are vaguely humanoid but closer to nature yet at the same time quite capable of human-level destruction. Fairies might be from the Reptite dimension as well, thus mirroring the keystone dimension's human/mystic dicotomy.

Here's a nicer chart of what I am imagining:


Radical_Dreamer

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Re: Evolution in the Series
« Reply #54 on: April 26, 2008, 12:16:49 am »
I think that model 2, given that particular quote, is the most likely to be correct.

V_Translanka

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Re: Evolution in the Series
« Reply #55 on: April 26, 2008, 02:47:04 am »
The Green Ambler could just be some kind of fair costume, though...I mean, everyone seems pretty surprised when they see the actual Reptites upon traveling to 65,000,000 BC, right?

Anacalius

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Re: Evolution in the Series
« Reply #56 on: April 26, 2008, 03:33:59 pm »
The Green Ambler could just be some kind of fair costume, though...I mean, everyone seems pretty surprised when they see the actual Reptites upon traveling to 65,000,000 BC, right?

The Green Ambler IS a costume, not a real reptite that magically survived it's species' extinction.
The Steel Runner IS a costume, not a guard on break.
G.I. Jogger IS a costume, not a soldier who snuck away and decided to play at the fair.
Catalack IS a cat, not a midget who runs on all 4s in a cat costume. =P

Boo the Gentleman Caller

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Re: Evolution in the Series
« Reply #57 on: April 26, 2008, 04:10:11 pm »
I had never actually thought much about the Green Ambler until now, and in conjunction with Translanka's post, I adamantly believe that Green Ambler is just a costume.  Although it's sprite resembles a Reptite, obviously the Green Ambler costume doesn't, for the heroes didn't recognize the Reptites when they first encountered them in 65 Million BC.

This isn't to say that Reptites may not have survived, seeing as how dinosaurs survived within the depths of the Giant's Claw (which I almost called "Gaea's Navel", phew).

Thought

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Re: Evolution in the Series
« Reply #58 on: April 26, 2008, 04:25:15 pm »
True, true, the Green Ambler could just be a costume.

But then again, the heroes aren't very observant. Chrono can't tell its Marle when she is wearing a gown, the entire team can't recognize Magus when he's wearing a hood, and Magus doesn't recognize Gaspar when he's wearing a brown derby.

Anywho, I was just supposing that the Green Ambler and Giant's claw are examples of Dinosaurs being able to survive into the modern world. If such could survive the iceage that killed off the Reptites, then logically a few mammals (humans in particular) could survive the Human/Reptite War.

This, however, is mostly just to explain why two entirely new species appear in El Nido for no apparent reason. These species are humanoid but clearly not actually human. The Entity brought an entire metropolis into the Keystone Dimension from the Reptite world; it seems rather likely that a few non-dragonian creatures came along for the ride as well, which could help explain some of the downright nonsensical of new species suddenly popping up all over the place in El Nido.

Chrono'99

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Re: Evolution in the Series
« Reply #59 on: June 23, 2008, 04:19:18 pm »
I haven't read the topic yet but I'd like to point out that Fairies are not descended from humans:

Quote from: Fairy NPC at Water Dragon Isle
[Pink Fairy]
   We fairies are born from the morning
   dewdrops of an aged tree.
   The large tree that stands in the
   center is like our '"Fairy Godmother."'

This type of trees probably originates from the Reptite Dimension (or FATE?), which would explains why there's no Fairies in CT.