Author Topic: Evolution in the Series  (Read 19527 times)

V_Translanka

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Re: Evolution in the Series
« Reply #15 on: March 10, 2008, 02:59:07 pm »
Yeah, but not all CC Techs are equipped. Some are naturally learned.

Thought

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Re: Evolution in the Series
« Reply #16 on: March 10, 2008, 03:25:14 pm »
Magic also has to be unlocked. Like how Spekkio does for Crono & Co. So, that means that the ability is there, but that it's just blocked (dampened might be a better words since, like w/Tail Spin & Slash there are still Magical abilities).

Unlocked possibly, or just made aware of. If an individual had no idea how to use magic, yet had the talent, would they have displayed it? Sort of like Clark Kent in Smallville; he can fly, but the character doesn't know how so he doesn't. (note, I am only referencing Smallville and the Merchant Princes to illustrate concepts that I am not sure I am actually conveying properly; I’m not trying to argue from such things).

I think the Reptites were FORCED to change though because of 1) being decimated by Humans & 2) drastic eviromental changes...both their lair was destroyed and the Ice Age came about in one (red star) fall swoop. Humans evolved in how they lived, of course. No more Hunting Range...no competition or harassing from the Reptites...both villages came together...all of these things factor in for a more laid back evolution, not unlike the course we're currently on due to similar factors, I believe...

But I thought Lavos never fell in the Dragonian Dimension. Thus, no drastic environmental change. Without Crono and Co, it is debatable if Ayla would have been able to defeat Azala (or if events would have even conspired to have her attempt such a confrontation). Besides, humans were decimated by the Reptites and had to survive drastic environmental changes too. If those forced the Reptites to Evolve, why not humans?

V_Translanka

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Re: Evolution in the Series
« Reply #17 on: March 10, 2008, 03:46:18 pm »
Oh, I wasn't talking about the Dragonians in the Dragonian Dimension. In that case, it'd just be the opposite. They would have evolved similar to how the humans did w/o the Reptites...I was talking about the Mystics...

I think Ayla would have done fine w/o Crono & Co. Kiss is one of her earliest Techs, so she'd be able to recover whenever she needed to...Plus, since she wouldn't have needed to share experience, she'd be even more powerful, right?

But either way, what does that have to do w/anything...? The Reptites were still gonna get the kaibosh from Lavos, right?

Humans woudn't be as prone to the environmental changes as the cold-blooded Reptites. Also, since the two villages came together, they'd have actually flourished...besides having to scavenge for food.

Thought

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Re: Evolution in the Series
« Reply #18 on: March 10, 2008, 04:59:08 pm »
But either way, what does that have to do w/anything...? The Reptites were still gonna get the kaibosh from Lavos, right?

Right, but I thought you were saying that the Reptites in the Dragonian dimension (where they do not get the kaibosh from Lavos) were devestated by the humans (which helped them evolve). Sorry for the mistake.

But I doubt Ayla alone could have taken on all the Reptites with certainty. Azala and the Black Tyranno could have probably outdone her; Imagine sleep followed up with Tyranno Flame and finished with a nice Teleports a Rock. Ayla would be kissing herself stupid the whole time; Azala and the Tyranno could just outlast her MP.

But none of that is really hither nor thither.

V_Translanka

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Re: Evolution in the Series
« Reply #19 on: March 10, 2008, 07:43:12 pm »
Oh...mebby...Azala gets squashed pretty early though (might depend on which Techs Ayla would have at that point if she was training alone), so I was thinking she'd just have to withstand the fire attacks from the Black Tyranno...easy w/the right armor, which are readily available for her...but yeah...

Boo the Gentleman Caller

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Re: Evolution in the Series
« Reply #20 on: March 11, 2008, 04:25:54 pm »
keystone timeline:  maybe ayla never went to tyrano lair in the keystone timeline...  and azala just got powned by the meteorite-lavos.

wait.  i think i'm not following the conversation well.  i think my mind is elsewhere.

Thought

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Re: Evolution in the Series
« Reply #21 on: March 11, 2008, 06:20:50 pm »
Okay, so theories thus far:

1) Humans in 65,000,000 BC are really from the future (Boo, reply #1 on 1st page).

2) The sun stone evolved humans in some fashion (V_Translanka, reply #2 on 1st page, expanded by Krebel, reply #4 1st page)

3) Frozen flame was actually sent into the past on impact and already had evolved humans to a 65,000,000 state and they then stayed fairly constant to modern times. (BROJ, reply #5, 1st page)

4) The Frozen Flame only evolved half of humans, creating the Enlightened One and Earthbound, who then rejoined the species and produced modern humans (Satchel_Dawg, reply #10, page 1)

5) Humans diverged and evolved into Mystics (Thought, reply #12, page 1)

6) Human evolution was stunted, not sped up, by the frozen flame (Thought, reply #12, page 1)

A side discussion then followed as to if Ayla could have defeated the Reptites, among other things. This seems to have been largely the result of a confusion and seems to be generally unimportant to the thread topic.

In order to work, one of these theories (or another theory, or an amalgamation of these theories) but explain the following:

I) It must explain why humans do not appear to significantly evolve (apart from the apparent introduction of magic) between 65,000,000 and 12,000 BC. (Some large scale evolution should be expected)

II) It must explain why Chronopolis indicates that the Frozen Flame evolved humans when the "physical" evidence (humans in 65,000,000 and 12,000 appearing as the same) contradicts this.

III) It must offer a coherent chronology for human evolution (what evolved into what, why, and when).

Did I leave anything out? If not, then we might be able to solve this riddle by systematically addressing the theories presented so far and evaluating their merits and shortcomings (which may either necessitate discarding those theories entirely or merging them into one Grand Unification Theory... thingy).

>.>
<.<

Boo the Gentleman Caller, what's the matter with you?
You don't theorize like the other forumites do.
You hypothesize about those human guys.
But they're not men, they're monekys, Boo.

BROJ

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Re: Evolution in the Series
« Reply #22 on: March 11, 2008, 09:04:16 pm »
You don't theorize like the other forumites do.
HEY! What's that supposed to mean!?  :lol:

Boo the Gentleman Caller

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Re: Evolution in the Series
« Reply #23 on: March 12, 2008, 03:29:51 pm »
i didn't understand the type-1 text...  i am going to WISH that that was a compliment, but for now, let me think on it...

PS - at this point in the analysis i am doubting the potential awesomeness of a unification theory.  just not enough info from the sources (CT and CC).
« Last Edit: March 12, 2008, 03:43:38 pm by Boo the Gentleman Caller »

Thought

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Re: Evolution in the Series
« Reply #24 on: March 12, 2008, 04:05:25 pm »
That was just the result of a somewhat famous song (lyrics here) running through my head almost constantly over the last two days. Boo just had the proper name for the variation. Anywho, silliness aside:

But even if there isn't quite enough information in the series to create a single grand unification theory, we should be able to come up with what such a theory might look like, if more information is ever provided.

Boo the Gentleman Caller

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Re: Evolution in the Series
« Reply #25 on: March 12, 2008, 04:26:25 pm »
Agreed.  Perhaps we should start fleshing out each theory soon?

V_Translanka

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Re: Evolution in the Series
« Reply #26 on: March 12, 2008, 04:32:04 pm »
I think it's also important to note the differences in the interpretation of the word 'evolution'.

Boo the Gentleman Caller

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Re: Evolution in the Series
« Reply #27 on: March 12, 2008, 07:22:33 pm »
that's true, too, translanka.

the word evolution means, 'a gradual process in which something changes into a different and usually more complex or better form,' http://www.thefreedictionary.com/evolution, but due to attachments of darwinian evolution we should probably find a different word to use to avoid confusion.

human development?  human deepening?  human process?


Thought

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Re: Evolution in the Series
« Reply #28 on: March 13, 2008, 11:30:41 am »
Well, what specifically is the non-Synthetic Model of Evolution meaning of the word supposed to represent?

There is the genetic Evolution of the species that seems to need to be addressed,
The cultural evolution of human society that might need to be discussed,
And the evolution of magic (which seems important enough to separate from the other two).

Is there another type of change that we should be considering?

Thought

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Re: Evolution in the Series
« Reply #29 on: March 28, 2008, 05:05:11 pm »
Well, so as to not let the thread die for want of effort on my part, I suppose I'll see about addressing some of the theories and weed a few out (mind, final conclusions however would really need to wait until the respective proponents extrapolate the original theories.

So, Theory #1: The humans in 65,000,000 BC, as seen in Chrono Trigger, are really from the future. Simply put, Humans are so evolved in that time period because evolution already took place. This does get around the problem of the seemingly different models of evolution displayed in CT and CC. It is not without some circumstantial in-game evidence either, particularly in the Mystic Mts., at which Kino was apparently found by the village chief (curiously, it is indicated that Ayla was probably chief at around 5 yrs old, 10 at best). As that is where Chrono and Co appear, it might be that Kino is like Leah, a time orphan.

While a very interesting theory, it doesn't have much going for it. It requires a fairly large supposition (that humans traveled back in time to found humanity) and doesn't deliver on equally significant justification. With more proof, I think we have to discard this one for now.

Theory #2 is that the Sun Stone evolved humans in some fashion, thus replacing the Frozen Flame as the agent of evolutionary change. This is supported by the fact that the stone radiates a significant degree of power (and that power could probably cause genetic mutation), however the Sun Stone is never presented as anything but a power source (and importantly, a power source that is not present in 65,000,000). Thus this theory necessitates that attributes be applied to the stone that aren't indicated in the games and that the stone be present in a time period where it appears to be absent. Without further extrapolation, I think we have to discard this theory as well.

Theory #3 specifically addresses a single problem; IF the Frozen Flame is part of Lavos, and IF humans are almost totally "evolved" when Lavos lands, then the Frozen Flame must have gotten to earth before lavos (hence, it was sent into the past and evolved humans then). Even assuming that this were a possible explanation, it doesn't address another problem that is equally critical and makes this one slightly nonsensical; humans didn't evolve from 65,000,000 to 12000. Even if the Frozen Flame traveled into the past, there should have still been some form change during those many years. Indeed, Chronopolis humans should be even more unlike the image of -pre-frozen flame "humans" than the 65,000,000 humans are.

Theory #4 is more satisfying in that evolution does occur during this period; the Enlightened Ones evolve. However, this still indicates a very small change (magic power) and it doesn't address why the Earthbound did not evolve at all (thus returning to the problem of the Chronopolis scientists not conforming their theories to the reality that we the players see).

Theory #5 only addresses the magnitude of Theory #4; humans evolved into Mystics and the ones remaining as humans were actually comparatively un-evolved; therefore the Chronopolis scientists were assuming a degree of evolution happened that didn't actually happen to the given subject (but this should have been revealed by studying human DNA). This theory really only addresses part of #4 that was weak but it really has the same weaknesses.

And finally Theory #6 has the problem of assuming that Chronopolis scientists were fundamentally wrong; the Frozen Flame didn't help evolution, it prevented it. Unfortunately this is not very satisfying as it requires the source to be considered wrong and the theory to be considered correct. However, humans would still be considered evolutionarily aberrant like gets mentioned in Chrono Cross.

Unfortunately, I don't think we can get away from the fact that the Chronopolis scientists must have been fundamentally wrong in some way; the time scale of change must be off, or the degree of change, or some such.