Author Topic: Evolution in the Series  (Read 7912 times)

Thought

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Evolution in the Series
« on: March 07, 2008, 07:10:38 pm »
This was discussed to a small extent over in the Ayla thread, but it seems like a topic that might need its own home.

To summarize the problem: In Chrono Trigger, humans exist in 65000000 B.C. in a mostly modern state, lacking only the ability to use magic. In Chrono Cross, it is speculated that Humans came about as a result of Lavos' influence. Presumably, Lavos' influences on human (or proto-humans) could only occur after he arrived on the planet, thus indicating that "humans" in 65000000 were not really humans but would start to evolve into modern incarnations in 3000000 B.C. (with contact with the Frozen Flame). On one hand, this implies that Ayla was not human (and indeed, Leah), but that is directly contradicted by observable evidence. Why is there such a discrepancy and can it be explained?

To extrapolate: The Early Human Diagram displays humans before Lavos' contact. At best, this could only be as early as 65000000 (though possibly as late as 3000000). This does not match up with how Ayla or Leah appear, who both exist as, for all intents and purposes, fully functional humans prior to Lavos' fall. Furthermore, the ONLY evolutionary change that appears to be evident over 65000000ish years is that humans developed the ability to use magic. To put things in perspective, in the Real World mammals were new on the scene in 65,000,000, it would take another 30,000,000ish years before you'd see the first recognizable monkeys, with another 10,000,000 years before Apes. Australopithecus arrived on the scene around 3,900,000. In short, even if Ayla's people weren't perfectly human, huge spans of time passed with comparatively no human evolution (even the development of Magic can't account for it all).

This seems to be the result of a basic design flaw; Chrono Trigger wanted to link Lavos' fall with the impact that killed off the dinosaurs, in the Real World, and Chrono Cross wanted to present a more realistic version of human evolution. However, by putting Humans (that is, points of emotional connection for the player) in 65,000,000 the designers allowed for a contradiction.

Boo the Gentleman Caller

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Re: Evolution in the Series
« Reply #1 on: March 07, 2008, 07:28:59 pm »
Okay, so the problem is out there now.  We understand the state in both Chrono Trigger and Chrono Cross, and most likely it was designer oversight.  What are our theories / thoughts on the plausible links concerning the events of evolution?

I stated in the Ayla thread that perhaps the Human in 65 Million BC hadn't involved; quite the contrary.  Somehow, perhaps they were the offspring of time travels who had traveled to pre-65 Million BC and had devolved into a primitive, cavemen like state.  This would be similar to the events concerning the Time Crash and Chronopolis.

However, we have no evidence to support this theory.  Also, taking this theory into perspective, one would have to wonder if the Humans circa 65 Million BC survived to form all later Humans, thus creating a complex paradox into the origin of humanity as being an endless cycle (and perhaps delving into Fatalism).

A beginner's theory, no doubt.  What does everyone else think?

V_Translanka

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Re: Evolution in the Series
« Reply #2 on: March 07, 2008, 08:22:52 pm »
The Sun Stone.

Boo the Gentleman Caller

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Re: Evolution in the Series
« Reply #3 on: March 07, 2008, 08:29:09 pm »
okay.  how so?

Kebrel

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Re: Evolution in the Series
« Reply #4 on: March 07, 2008, 09:22:30 pm »
Translation error on the Dragonians perhaps, not the frozen flame but sun stone evolved them both objects of vast power, other then magic there technology is more advanced could the learn magic through tech. the dragonians the said there cursed by lavos not admitting they were weaker.

two minutes of thinking gave me that. :D

BROJ

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Re: Evolution in the Series
« Reply #5 on: March 07, 2008, 09:35:37 pm »
Okay, this my opinion on a *possible* scenario:
First consider that Lavos is creature that can naturally bend/break the laws of time. Does that ability derive to every part of his body? (I am not sure this has been discussed in another topic or not...) If it does, that could possibly mean that the Frozen Flame could have traveled 235,000,000 years in the past on impact as a chaotic reaction to being broken off. Questions/Comments please, I am curious if you think my theory *could* solve the Frozen Flame paradox.

As V_Translanka said, the sun stone is a very possible scenario, even though there are a few inconsistencies; certainly not as many as the Frozen Flame paradox provides, though...


Kebrel:If I am making false conclusions due to translation errors, forgive I haven't read the retranslated CC text yet...

V_Translanka

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Re: Evolution in the Series
« Reply #6 on: March 08, 2008, 02:53:47 am »
You could look at it as a non-literal meaning of the word "evolution"...so many people use it wrong these days anyways...The Sun Stone was an item of great power that allowed them to do great things. I could see them thinking of that as a kind of 'evolution'. There's a lot of open history there we just plain don't know about...

Kebrel

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Re: Evolution in the Series
« Reply #7 on: March 08, 2008, 04:58:24 am »
You could look at it as a non-literal meaning of the word "evolution"...so many people use it wrong these days anyways...The Sun Stone was an item of great power that allowed them to do great things. I could see them thinking of that as a kind of 'evolution'. There's a lot of open history there we just plain don't know about...
thats kinda what I was getting at misunderstanding. Humans might not have been imbued with magic, but just simple learned it, that I think would also take longer wouldn't it.

V_Translanka

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Re: Evolution in the Series
« Reply #8 on: March 08, 2008, 06:07:45 pm »
Yeah, and also there weren't very many people or groups that the humans were fighting after Lavos came, right? What with the Ice Age descending upon them...Perhaps they just had no real way of gaining Magic experience. If we take the battle system at more than face-value we can see that fighting experience is the majority of how one gains a mastery over the Magic arts in the Chronoverse.

Kebrel

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Re: Evolution in the Series
« Reply #9 on: March 08, 2008, 06:47:06 pm »
that also helps explain the earthbound ones with out magic there weaker the halve less magic. what about say 600A.D there was lots of conflict. but know magic because the plain did know the had it.

Like math, any one an do it, and better the more they do it. But a kid won't know about it unless taught.

satchel_dawg

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Re: Evolution in the Series
« Reply #10 on: March 08, 2008, 11:04:20 pm »
a possible theory:
humans were weak during ayla's time, and could not sustain immunity to certain things. but upon the frozen flames arrival, it caused a second group of people to come in existence(magic using) who eventually populated zeal. so the earthbound could be the ones who were not changed by the flames power(therefore deemed inferior by magic users). but when zeal fell, and the two groups reproduced together, they created what would be deemed the modern human(elemental users, and more advanced). so when it is said that without lavos influenced humans, it could mean that without him, everyone would die off early in time and the planet wouldn't be able to sustain life.

that was jumbled. :(

V_Translanka

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Re: Evolution in the Series
« Reply #11 on: March 09, 2008, 04:12:51 am »
Ayla clearly wasn't weak though. She was superhuman, even. Tail Spin inflicts magical energy damage as well...and Charm & Kiss are also magical in nature...I think if anything the FF expanded upon their ability to use abilities with magical properties and that thus evolved into the usage of Magic itself...

Thought

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Re: Evolution in the Series
« Reply #12 on: March 10, 2008, 01:20:05 pm »
You could look at it as a non-literal meaning of the word "evolution"...so many people use it wrong these days anyways...The Sun Stone was an item of great power that allowed them to do great things. I could see them thinking of that as a kind of 'evolution'. There's a lot of open history there we just plain don't know about...

Very good point. One of the annoying things about "evolution" is that it changes meaning if one capitalizes it or not. Capital E "Evolution" requires genetic change of one species to another, but lower case e "evolution" can just mean change (as in one species changing into another, or the same species "changing" by developing culture, magic, etc, or it could mean the extraction of a root from a quantity, in mathematics).

The problem is, however, that the Earthbound seem to lack the genetic trait, not just the knowledge, of how to use magic. If magic is merely knowledge, then there would be absolutely nothing separating a year old Earthbound child from a year old Enlightened Child. Indeed, if it were knowledge alone then Robo should be able to learn magic easily enough. Indeed, if magic is knowledge then any individual should be able to learn to use any time of magic. Likewise Ayla, despite living prior to the development of magic, should still be able to use it (she lived before the development of Time Travel too, but that doesn't stop her from using that knowledge). Rather, magic seems to be a combination of genetic ability and knowledge (sort of like the World-Walking ability/W* heterozygote gene of the Merchant Princes series, by Charles Stross).

It is curious that over the course of 65,000,000 years the Reptites evolved into a different species (the Dragonians) but humans did not. This establishes, if nothing else does, the expectation that Humans should not exist both in 65,000,000 and 2300 A.D as a single, unchanged species.

So, give that, if I might try to methodoligically review things.

1) Humans should have evolved into a different species over 65,000,000 (as illustrated by the change of Reptites to Dragonians over that time period).

2) Evolution need not necessitate physical charge; the development of magic required the development of knowledge of how to use it.

3) However, magic ability is still in the realm of one's genes (as illustrated by Ayla and Robo being unable to use it, as well as the separation of the Enlightened Ones and the Earthbound).

I just realized that we might actually see the different species that humans were to evolve into; the Mystics.

From that, if I may extrapolate wildly (and I do mean wildly); humans did evolve and separate into various species in the 65,000,000 years between when we first see Ayla and when Chronopolis conducted its research. However, the species evolved into the Mystics (thus solving why there is no significant genetic change over such a long period of time). Even among humans we see what might have eventually led to separate species; the Enlightened Ones and the Earthbound. To note, evolution doesn't necessitate that the previous species be replaced; Coelacanths, for example, were note replaced, whole hog, by more "evolved" species.

Thus the Frozen Flame might be said to have three possible influences on Evolution; it could speed it up (but we don't see actual evidence of this in the game, only the indications from Chronopolis), or it may have no effect whatsoever on evolution, or it may slow it down (as humans remain largely unchanged over the course of 65 million years in game). This later possibility seems to conform to the "physical" evidence of the game and only contradicts Chronopolis.

This also then allows for the lines in Chrono Trigger about a "strange red rock" to still mean Dreamstone (which I believe was the original intent, rather than the later retconning it as more analogous to the Frozen Flame). To quote both the NA and ReTranslation versions of the book:

Quote from: NA Book in Zeal
It all began aeons ago, when man's ancestors picked up a shard of a strange red rock...
Its power, which was beyond human comprehension, cultivated dreams...
In turn, love and hate were born...
Only time will see how it all ends.

Quote from: RT Book
Tens of millions of years ago, the ancestors of humans happened to take a fragment of a mysterious red rock in hand...
Everything started from there.
A power that surpassed human knowledge gave rise to dreams and gave birth to love and hate...
What manner of ending will that see...?
Perhaps only time knows the answer.

If the above is not total bunk, this would then help develop the dichotomy displayed in the series (Human/Reptite, Lavos/Entity, and Frozen Flame/Dreamstone). The biggest argument against Dreamstone causing human evolution is the argument that Dreamstone existed in human hands long before Zeal. While true, that doesn't indicate that evolution didn't occur. Human intelligence existed in 65,000,000 and thus may have already been the result of dreamstone.

Second to Last Note: Boo, there actually is some evidence for your theory that humans in 65000000 were transported there from the future; Kino came from the Mystic Mts, possibly through a gate. And Leah, likewise, traveled to the future and stayed there for an extended period of time. It is quite possible that Kino was from the future, and if Leah could travel to and live in the future, a future individual could travel to and live in the past.

Final note: While the Sun Stone may have also had some influence on this “change,” such an influence isn’t even hinted at.

V_Translanka

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Re: Evolution in the Series
« Reply #13 on: March 10, 2008, 02:50:28 pm »
Magic also has to be unlocked. Like how Spekkio does for Crono & Co. So, that means that the ability is there, but that it's just blocked (dampened might be a better words since, like w/Tail Spin & Slash there are still Magical abilities). Perhaps the Sun Stone was what originally unlocked their latent ability and the higher ups kept this away from certain individuals in order to keep power over them. Or just out of selfishness...we get to see what became of the Zealians after all...

Or maybe it was just that the FF only passed on a genetic unlocker that only affected some (and eventually faded through the generations).

I think the Reptites were FORCED to change though because of 1) being decimated by Humans & 2) drastic eviromental changes...both their lair was destroyed and the Ice Age came about in one (red star) fall swoop. Humans evolved in how they lived, of course. No more Hunting Range...no competition or harassing from the Reptites...both villages came together...all of these things factor in for a more laid back evolution, not unlike the course we're currently on due to similar factors, I believe...

Speaking of Laruba...I think they obviouslly influenced Zealian physical attributes...but perhaps, as I was saying, they too were the most prone to become selfish and such probably it was them and not the Iokans who found the Sun Stone (or the FF or w/e)...

Quote from: Thought
The biggest argument against Dreamstone causing human evolution is the argument that Dreamstone existed in human hands long before Zeal. While true, that doesn't indicate that evolution didn't occur. Human intelligence existed in 65,000,000 and thus may have already been the result of dreamstone.

You can easily make a case for that, I think. Since Ayla was a superhuman...and also since she was Chief & thus had that large hunk of Dreamstone, perhaps it affected her most...Though they also made weapons & armors out of it...though to obtain it other than those that made it (perhaps they didn't actually use their warez though) you'd need to be out fighting monsters gathering fangs, petals, horns, & feathers...Also, perhaps Dreamstone has to be really tempered to be of such significant use. Like the Sun Stone powering up, so too does Dreamstone by absorbing Magical energies...or perhaps the armors made of Dreamstone finally absorbed enough fiery blows from those dinosaurs...

Speaking of the dinosaurs...is it not odd that one Iokan points out the Reptites weakness towards Lightning? How would they know that unless they have someone who has some Lightning elemental Tech? Something ala Crono's Slash at least? In Chrono Cross we see that a lot of people have Techs w/elemental properties...though how even those would fit into the overall Magic system is still kind of vague...
« Last Edit: March 10, 2008, 02:58:12 pm by V_Translanka »

Boo the Gentleman Caller

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Re: Evolution in the Series
« Reply #14 on: March 10, 2008, 02:57:37 pm »
i always assumed that cc's tech system stemmed from the dragonian elements...