Author Topic: About the Masamune.  (Read 11816 times)

Vehek

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Re: About the Masamune.
« Reply #15 on: February 16, 2008, 02:26:17 am »
The only real difference between Woolsey's and the Re-translation for that line is that he calls it a "mythical sword".
Part of your argument that the Compendium theory about the Masamune's completion is wrong was that Cyrus had the Masamune in Ruby Knife form.

Trixter

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Re: About the Masamune.
« Reply #16 on: February 16, 2008, 02:35:36 am »
No I didn't originally say that, someone else in the thread did.  I just extrapolated on it if he really did.  And no one has proved one way or the other if Cyrus went straight from fighting Masa & Mune to fighting Ozzie and Magus or if there was a time period in between.  I'd personally say that there'd have to be a time period between.  Otherwise how would all these stories of a Hero weilding the Masamune be in affect.

And like I said, even if Cyrus didn't have the Ruby Knife the question still stands.  What powered up the Ruby Knife in the Lavos timeline?  It was clearly the Masamune, not the Ruby Knife, while in its broken form.  So that means that Cyrus was weilding the Masamune, not the Knife, when it was broken.  But in order for it to be the Masamune Crono would have had to go back in time and stab the Mammon Machine.  So you end up with this perpetual never ending loop.

V_Translanka

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Re: About the Masamune.
« Reply #17 on: February 16, 2008, 07:33:48 am »
Quote from: Trixster
And just as a side note, I find it sickening that people here always point to the Retranslation.  Who's to say one translation is any better than another.  Some words an phrases aren't so easy to convert between languages.  The retranslation doesn't have any more bearing than the original translations.  Give Woosley a little credit ya?

Ridiculous. Woosley himself has stated how much of CT had to be changed & taken out to fit the horrendous time restraints placed on him. Sure, I'll give  him credit, but the fact of the matter is that if you're going to theorize about the game's actual events, then use the ACTUAL EVENTS and not a misinterpreted version of it.

Quote from: thought
However, I think the Compendium's official stance is more along the lines that in the original timeline, Melchior wasn't imprissoned and so he had time to complete it. In the altered timeline, he was imprissoned and so the red knife represents a work in progress, which the energy (and possibly material) from the Mammon Machine completed.

Yeah, that makes the most sense...I don't recall anyone saying specifically that Cyrus has the Masamune...There's talk of a Hero. There's talk of a legendary sword. I don't recall if the two were intrinsically linked...or, if there was, wasn't it something fairly vague along the lines of "only the true hero can wield the legendary sword" and not "only Cyrus could ever wield the Masamune!"

Quote from: Ozzie
Gyah ha ha...Is THAT the best you can do?!  Without your sword, you're nothing!

Quote from: dankun
Ozzie's remark seems to indicate that Cyrus had indeed, already been the wielder of the sword for at least some time. As opposed to having just recently acquired it, a few moments ago.

I don't think that's true. Ozzie doesn't say the Masamune/Grandleon specifically. He just says sword. Basically he's saying that Cyrus's only hope in battle is if he has a weapon...

I don't see why any of them would be up there if they weren't trying to get the Masamune (or, in Magus' case to stop anyone from getting it to use against him). So I say Occam's Razor that for now.
« Last Edit: February 16, 2008, 07:36:12 am by V_Translanka »

Trixter

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Re: About the Masamune.
« Reply #18 on: February 16, 2008, 10:49:19 am »
Melchoir having time to finish the Masamune in the Lavos timeline DOES NOT make sense as you say.  When someone makes a sword they don't start off by making a knife.  A blacksmith never turns a knife into a sword.

And why would Ozzie be talking about some generic sword.  It's pretty obvious that he's talking about the Masamune.  For one thing the Masamune was said to be needed to fight Magus so why would Cyrus be fighting him without the Masamune.  And Masa & Mune clearly state, "Only Cyrus made it this far" indicating that he in fact got his hands on the Masamune.  And furthermore its implied that the Masamune broke during that battle between Cyrus and Magus.

And what I was saying about the Retranslation is this.  Who is to say that the people that retranlated it didn't also make mistakes.  Why all of a sudden are they superior to Woosley.  Even if Woosley admitted some mistakes that doesn't change the fact that there could be mistakes in the retranslation too.

Also I think its a good point to mention that even though it appears that the Cryus/Magus battle happens outside of the Masa&Mune cave we cannot say for sure that that's where it was.  In Chrono Cross when Radius and Garai find the Masamune it sure as heck looks like they found it at Divine Dragon Falls.  But it's stated elsewhere that they found it on the mainland.  So just because the topical graphics are the same doesn't necessarily mean anything.  The background could have just been reused to save time.

Luminaire85

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Re: About the Masamune.
« Reply #19 on: February 16, 2008, 12:41:45 pm »
Melchoir having time to finish the Masamune in the Lavos timeline DOES NOT make sense as you say.  When someone makes a sword they don't start off by making a knife.  A blacksmith never turns a knife into a sword.

Perhaps not, but the Mammon Machine does turn knives into swords, apparently. I don't see any reason why the Mammon Machine couldn't have been used by Melchior to turn the Ruby Knife into the Masamune in the Lavos timeline as well. It just wasn't thrust into the machine like in the Keystone timelines.

And what I was saying about the Retranslation is this.  Who is to say that the people that retranlated it didn't also make mistakes.  Why all of a sudden are they superior to Woosley.  Even if Woosley admitted some mistakes that doesn't change the fact that there could be mistakes in the retranslation too.

There are two important differences between Woolsey's translation and KWhatzit's retranslation: censorship and space limitations. Woolsey had both to deal with, while KWhatzit had neither. It's not that KWhatzit's version is the hands-down absolutely 100% correct interpretation, nor is it that Woolsey's version is "bad". It is simply that the removal of these two limitations means that KWhatzit's version is inherently much closer to the original than Woolsey's version, and so, given a discrepancy between the two, KWhatzit's version should generally be preferred.

Vehek

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Re: About the Masamune.
« Reply #20 on: February 16, 2008, 01:30:16 pm »
I don't think that's true. Ozzie doesn't say the Masamune/Grandleon specifically. He just says sword. Basically he's saying that Cyrus's only hope in battle is if he has a weapon...
Actually, in the retranslation and some older translations, he says the "legendary sword" is broken.

V_Translanka

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Re: About the Masamune.
« Reply #21 on: February 16, 2008, 01:33:04 pm »
Melchoir having time to finish the Masamune in the Lavos timeline DOES NOT make sense as you say.  When someone makes a sword they don't start off by making a knife.  A blacksmith never turns a knife into a sword.

Fine, then he just had time to experiment w/the Mammon Machine. I mean, when you fight it w/the Masamune all it does is absorb more energy from it because they're both made of Dreamstone...So basically what I'm saying is that he initially makes the Knife, then charges it up ala the Pendant, and then in the original timeline's Ocean Palace Disaster the three gurus are there and before he has a chance to actually use the Masamune (which is engraved w/his name), Lavos fuct them all. I mean, perhaps he figured in the original timeline to use it against Lavos itself...

Quote
And why would Ozzie be talking about some generic sword.  It's pretty obvious that he's talking about the Masamune.

I just meant that Ozzie is basically just putting Cyrus down by saying that he's really nothing more than a sword, just another soldier, nothing special.

Quote
For one thing the Masamune was said to be needed to fight Magus so why would Cyrus be fighting him without the Masamune.  And Masa & Mune clearly state, "Only Cyrus made it this far" indicating that he in fact got his hands on the Masamune.  And furthermore its implied that the Masamune broke during that battle between Cyrus and Magus.

I didn't say that Cyrus DIDN'T have the Masamune, I was saying that he had only JUST gotten it before the fight w/Magus.

Quote
Also I think its a good point to mention that even though it appears that the Cryus/Magus battle happens outside of the Masa&Mune cave we cannot say for sure that that's where it was.  In Chrono Cross when Radius and Garai find the Masamune it sure as heck looks like they found it at Divine Dragon Falls.  But it's stated elsewhere that they found it on the mainland.  So just because the topical graphics are the same doesn't necessarily mean anything.  The background could have just been reused to save time.

I think that you should take what the game gives you as factual unless otherwise stated. As you say in your example, it's later stated that it's somewhere else. This isn't the case w/the Cyrus flashback, so we should assume it's where it is. Again, Occam's Razor.

Mauron

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Re: About the Masamune.
« Reply #22 on: February 17, 2008, 01:33:27 am »
Also I think its a good point to mention that even though it appears that the Cryus/Magus battle happens outside of the Masa&Mune cave we cannot say for sure that that's where it was.  In Chrono Cross when Radius and Garai find the Masamune it sure as heck looks like they found it at Divine Dragon Falls.  But it's stated elsewhere that they found it on the mainland.  So just because the topical graphics are the same doesn't necessarily mean anything.  The background could have just been reused to save time.
Also in Chrono Cross, Dario, Karsh, Solt, and Peppor are stated to have found it in Isle of the Damned.

Unless there's something more about the Masamune stated after entering Terra Tower (where I am now), I wonder if they found another sword which was thought to be the Masamune. The evil sword they found doesn't seem like the one in Chrono Trigger.

V_Translanka

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Re: About the Masamune.
« Reply #23 on: February 17, 2008, 06:34:14 am »
Quote from: Melchior/Bosch
A sword may become either a means of taking a life or a means of saving a life, depending how the user's heart is. Be sure not to misuse it (the Grandleon/Masamune).

He says that after the reforging of the sword in CT.

Thought

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Re: About the Masamune.
« Reply #24 on: February 18, 2008, 06:29:42 pm »
Melchoir having time to finish the Masamune in the Lavos timeline DOES NOT make sense as you say.  When someone makes a sword they don't start off by making a knife.  A blacksmith never turns a knife into a sword.

Right, and the Mammon Machine turning the Ruby Knife into the Masamune makes perfect sense. Because, you know, blacksmiths traditionally jab metal into large, immortality granting, power sources to make swords. Or something like that.

...Maybe the Masamune is really the Sword of Thundera.

BROJ

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Re: About the Masamune.
« Reply #25 on: February 18, 2008, 07:22:54 pm »
...Maybe the Masamune is really the Sword of Thundera.

Thundercats! Go!

FaustWolf

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Re: About the Masamune.
« Reply #26 on: February 18, 2008, 11:02:36 pm »
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« Last Edit: February 18, 2008, 11:05:53 pm by FaustWolf »

BROJ

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Re: About the Masamune.
« Reply #27 on: February 18, 2008, 11:22:18 pm »
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