On The Axioms & Corollaries Of Temporal Transforms

[Leebot]

The question of how/why Home and Another split definitely requires more discussion. Here are a couple of possibilities that would account for the apparent conflict with conservation of energy:

1. Background pair-production. Essentially, every particle was created in conjuction with a negative-mass, negative-charge copy, giving the whole universe zero net energy. Where did these go? They were probably shunted off on another dimensional axis.

2. Lower potential. All normal timelines exist at a high potential energy. When Keystone T-2 split, it went to two places at lower potential energy. This change in its potential could account for the apparent creation of energy.

Granted, there is no proof for or against either of these possibilities, they are just examples of how the creation of a timeline might not break conservation of energy.

[GrayLensman]

Could Lavos, or Belthasar, by some design, supply the massive yet finite energy required to replicate a world?

[Leebot]

Could Lavos, or Belthasar, by some design, supply the massive yet finite energy required to replicate a world?

Possibly. Now that I've been thinking about it, there are a lot of ways to get a virtually unlimited amount of energy. Note that if you haven't taken at least first-year college physics, this probably won't make much sense to you. Consider two scenarios:

Given that an black hole (or singularity) exists only as a point-mass, the potential energy in it is negative infinity. If something falls into a black hole, it would gain a tremendous amount of energy. The kinetic energy from a single particle could be great enough to create an entire universe if it fell far enough.

On the same principle of gravitational potential energy, what if one could decrease the potential of the entire universe? Since all our measurements are relative anyway, we would notice no difference, and this energy could be used to create a new universe (or as a solution to our energy crisis).

[GrayLensman]

Due to the principle of time travel immunity, temporary versions of Crono and the others must emerge in 2300 AD after Lavos is defeated.

[SilentMartyr]

I have a question about the ending, how does Lucca get Doan in his original form? Technically after Lavos is defeated the old timeline is instantly sent to the DBT right? So unless Lucca got Doan before they fought Lavos then it wouldn't make any sense for him to exist.

[Leebot]

I have a question about the ending, how does Lucca get Doan in his original form? Technically after Lavos is defeated the old timeline is instantly sent to the DBT right? So unless Lucca got Doan before they fought Lavos then it wouldn't make any sense for him to exist.

Plot hole. *Sees ZeaLitY shooting him an angry glare"

Uh... maybe she got the new Doan, then had him dress up in rags so Marle would recognize him.

[Chrono'99]

I have a question about the ending, how does Lucca get Doan in his original form? Technically after Lavos is defeated the old timeline is instantly sent to the DBT right? So unless Lucca got Doan before they fought Lavos then it wouldn't make any sense for him to exist.

Plot hole. *Sees ZeaLitY shooting him an angry glare"

Uh... maybe she got the new Doan, then had him dress up in rags so Marle would recognize him.

It might not be possible, since Lucca speaks with Marle about how she doesn't know if Robo will be alive in the new future etc.

Perhaps the Entity teleported all the guys to meet with Marle... yeah, the Entity did it...

[GrayLensman]

It is the new version of Doan, otherwise he wouldn't know anything about the defeat of Lavos.  He's not necessarily dressed in rags either, as the same old man sprite is used all over the game.

[SilentMartyr]

It is the new version of Doan, otherwise he wouldn't know anything about the defeat of Lavos.  He's not necessarily dressed in rags either, as the same old man sprite is used all over the game.

Nice save, I forgot about the evil sprites. (Shakes fist in air)

[GrayLensman]

TIME BASTARD - A REVIEW

The premise behind Time Bastard is that time travel cannot be used to create duplicates of entities.  It is possible for past and future versions of entities to exist in the same point in space-time, but duplicate entities from the same time period cannot coexist.  The doubles in Chrono Cross do not violate this because Home and Another are separate dimensions.

Consider this scenario:

At the Millennial Fair Crono warps 400 years into the past.  His presence in 600 AD creates a new timeline, and the original is sent to the Darkness Beyond Time.  In the new timeline, a new version of Crono will exist, but the original version of Crono in 600 AD is not affected because he has time traveller immunity.

In 1000 AD, the new version of Crono may enter the warp to 600 AD, but where does he go?  He cannot arrive in 600 AD, because the original version of Crono, who is protected by time traveller immunity already exists there.  Based on evidence in Chrono Trigger, time periods do not fill up with duplicate time travellers.  Thus, the new version of Crono is eliminated from the timeline and sent to the DBT.

Basically, if changes to the timeline result in the version of a time traveller entering a time-warp not being identical to the same traveller exiting the warp, the traveller entering the time-warp is sent to the DBT.

And if Crono continued time travelling:

The original version of Crono warps from 600 AD to 12,000 BC, creating another timeline.  Yet another version of Crono would enters the warp in 1000 AD, and is sent to the DBT.  The original version of Crono, protected by time traveller immunity, arrives in 600 AD.  However, due to the new timeline, when this version Crono warps to 12,000 BC, he is not identical to the original Crono, and is sent to the DBT.

Another case:

Perhaps if the changes to the timeline are severe, the new version of Crono would not enter the warp in 1000 AD (or the version of Crono in 600 AD).  Would the original version of Crono return to the present to find a duplicate of himself?  Since there are no duplicates, the new version of Crono must have been sent to the DBT at the same time the original Crono left.

The Theory in a Nutshell

Duplicates of entities cannot be created through time travel because this would violate the conservation of energy in the universe.  If a time travel scenario would cause a duplicate entity to exist, the entity with the least seniority of time traveller immunity would be sent to the DBT.

Examples

Robo encounters the past version of himself in 600 AD

After Fiona's Forest is replanted, Robo warps from 1000 AD to 600 AD and encounters his past self.  They are not duplicates because the versions of Robos are not the same age.  They are the same version of Robo looped in time.  When the "past" version of Robo reaches 1000 AD, he will be sent into the DBT at the time the "present" version of Robo originally warped out.

Magus encounters Janus in 12,000 BC

After the encounter with the time travellers in 600 AD, Magus is warped to 12,000 BC.  Magus encounters his past self (Janus), but they are not duplicates because they are not the same age.  During the destruction of Zeal, the new version of Janus will be sent to the DBT at the time the original Janus was warped to the middle ages.  The new version of Magus will be sent to the DBT when the original warped to 12,000 BC, and so on.

[Leebot]

Pretty good explanation there. Just an alternate interpretation here:

Each entity has its own personal time, measuring the point in their existence . When a group of entities exit a gate, the new timeline created (assuming they went to the past) starts to run again from that point, with the new versions of the travelers acting completely naturally until their personal times reach the same time as the old travelers had when they exited the gate. At this point, the new versions are sent to the DBT to uphold conservation of energy.

Another little point of temporal mechanics:

Let's say on their second trip to 65,000,000 BC, Crono and crew screw up badly, allowing the Reptites to rule the earth. This would mean that the new timeline would start from here, and Crono would never exist to time travel and eventually make the first trip to 65,000,000 BC. Would this cause a new timeline to overwrite the changes Crono just made in 65,000,000 BC?

If it does, a new timeline starts from when they would have first traveled to 65,000,000 BC. This timeline contains no intervention, and would turn out to be the same as the original timeline. This would then lead to the same set of events happening once again, leading into what's known as a reciprocal causalty loop--one set of circumstances causing the other which then causes the first, and so on infinitely.

Since the Chrono universe has the mechanics set up to avoid paradoxes such as these, we can pretty safely assume that this is not what happens. Instead, this set of circumstances seems most likely:

The new future may contain travels to the past, and these exist as normal for anyone in this new timeline. But, once the personal clocks of the travelers run out and no more changes would take place (at least at a Time-Error lower than the travelers' arrival), this new past is shunted to the DBT and the old past remains as part of the timeline. This results in the travelers not having their actions overwrite themselves accidentally. It still is possible for something to happen after this (speaking in terms of Time-Error) that could go back and overwrite the past (assuming a Gate that can go back far enough), as this wouldn't result in a paradox or infinite loop.

Then again... a reciprocal causalty loop may be just the thing needed to split the timeline in two. If it's possible, I'm sure Balthasar could have figured out how.

[Zatopek]

The new version of Magus will be sent to the DBT when the original warped to 12,000 BC, and so on.

This is the only part I'm not getting.  When was there a new Magus?  If the new Janus is sent to the DBT there won't be a new Magus, right?  Am I missinbg something here?

[GrayLensman]

The new version of Magus will be sent to the DBT when the original warped to 12,000 BC, and so on.

This is the only part I'm not getting.  When was there a new Magus?  If the new Janus is sent to the DBT there won't be a new Magus, right?  Am I missinbg something here?

The original version of Janus will warp to the middle ages, but the slight changes to the timeline will alter his experiences from the original Magus.  For example, the existence of the Black Omen.  This new version of Magus will not be identical to the original in 600 AD.

[Sentenal]

okay, maybe i'm starting to grasp what this time bastard theory is saying...  only the orginal versions of the time travelers can time travel?  is that basically what it means?

and Leebot's ideas on it were too hard to follow...

[Zaperking]

The new version of Magus will be sent to the DBT when the original warped to 12,000 BC, and so on.

This is the only part I'm not getting.  When was there a new Magus?  If the new Janus is sent to the DBT there won't be a new Magus, right?  Am I missinbg something here?

The original version of Janus will warp to the middle ages, but the slight changes to the timeline will alter his experiences from the original Magus.  For example, the existence of the Black Omen.  This new version of Magus will not be identical to the original in 600 AD.

Then why is it if we go back to 600AD after the Ocean Palace disaster with or without Magus, there is no new Magus and Ozzy still remembers Magus' traitorism.