Author Topic: Dreams and Reality in the Chrono Series  (Read 15377 times)

Hiroshino

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Dreams and Reality in the Chrono Series
« on: December 09, 2004, 08:57:55 pm »
These quotes are from another forum that I go to. I wanted to make a thread about the dreams and reality in the Chrono Series.

What parts in the Chrono series were dreams or reality??

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Dreams can be both dreams and reality in the Chrono world.


That sounds like the entire Chrono series was just a dream. Was it all just a dream? Was there any sliver of reality there??

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...dreams and reality cross themselves in the Chrono world.


What does that mean? Now it sounds like there are more dreams put in with the reality? I am so confused...

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In the series, everything is capable of dreaming... And all these dreams influence the time-space more or less:
-A CC song is called "The Dream That Time Is Dreaming".
-Belthasar's notebook in Zeal states humanity first became conscious thanks to a red rock which made them able to dream (Dreamstone).
-The Frozen Flame fulfilled humanity's dream of intelligence by evolving them faster.
-Melchior's dreams are embodied into Masa and Mune.
-A theory claims that Spekkio is Gaspar's dream.
-Doreen says she might be the dream of a dream of a dream etc.
-According to the Japanese game, the event at the Millenial Fair is a "dream" (see my previous post on the chapter titles) (Crono does dream of waking up in his house with Marle instead of his mom, after the first battle with Magus, before waking up in Ayla's hut "for real").
-During the campfire scene, Lucca's dream of going back in time to save her mother's legs was fulfilled in reality.
-Robo (even though he is a robot), kept preciously a seed in his circuits while replanting Fiona's forest, and was then able to create a "Green Dream".
-The Black Dragon's dream, in Another Marbule, materializes into the ghostly Lagoonates, in Home Marbule.
-The sleeping Acacia Dragoon, in Viper's Manor, materialized into Turnip, at Hermit's Hide-Away (what's more in the other dimension if I remember well).
-FATE's dream of reincarnating into a living species (that's what Marle says) made her possess Wazuki and turn him into Lynx.
-In RD, Schala's dream of not having destroyed Zeal, in 12,000 B.C., made her reincarnate into the innocent Kid, in 10xx A.D., thanks to the Frozen Flame.
-In RD, Serge(s)'s adventure(s) sound(s) just like a huge dream repeating itself.
-In CC, Kid's dream about Lucca's orphanage traps her into that event while her body is left unconscious.
-Schala says that living beings "are also perhaps nothing more than a dream dreamt by the planet before it is born."
-And many other stuff I forgot.

Some of these dreams aren't dreamt by living beings (time, the CT adventure, Robo, FATE, the Planet, etc.), yet they are there and influence reality, even in the past, the future, near, or far in space or time. The Planet's Dream could very well be...the Planet's one then.


But when did the actual reality occur? Yet more dreams?? I'm begining to think that everything was a dream..

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-Belthasar's notebook in Zeal states humanity first became conscious thanks to a Red Rock which made them able to dream (Dreamstone).


So if humanity becomes conscious, making them able to dream, was reality ocurring before humanity picked up the Red Rock? Or was it humanity being able to create thier own dreams within more dreams? Or was it humanity waking up and being able to dream? Or something totally different?

And then you have Doreen who is the dream of a dream of a dream of a dream, etc etc....and how she seems to come from out of no where at random times, hence, her being able to transport in Enhasa and come out of no where when Masa and Mune talk in CC.... What is that all about?

You also have Spekkio's Origin too. I don't know where my thread went, might have been deleted by me. But..

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A theory claims that Spekkio is Gaspar's dream.


..that can be another clue to Spekkio's Origin. He knows about magic, knew about Zeal Palace, him and Gaspar obviously have some connection.



Hopefully somebody can enlighten me on this matter. I am curious to know the answers to my questions and find out what events and parts in the Chrono series were indeed a dream or reality?

Peaceman

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Dreams and Reality in the Chrono Series
« Reply #1 on: December 09, 2004, 11:04:16 pm »
That was all very interesting, but wouldn't it be very anticlimatical if it were all a dream?  I mean, Crono dies, gets resurrected, and defeats Lavos, all so that he can save the future.  Then, we find out that it was all a dream and the future is still bleak.  If the game was really like that, I know I wouldn't love CT as much as I do now!

V_Translanka

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Dreams and Reality in the Chrono Series
« Reply #2 on: December 10, 2004, 05:40:08 pm »
Not dreams, but memories. The events happen in the memories of the Entity. This is what the party sees, but it is also their current reality.

-Melchior's dreams are embodied into Masa and Mune.

I have never took this as literal...but I suppose you could...

-A theory claims that Spekkio is Gaspar's dream.

I don't believe this theory as it uses the previous quote as a way to prove it...

-Doreen says she might be the dream of a dream of a dream etc.

She says a bunch of crap that's mostly to just get you thinking about the way Zeal and the people think...She's no more a dream of a dream than she is a bowling ball.

-During the campfire scene, Lucca's dream of going back in time to save her mother's legs was fulfilled in reality.

Just because someone awakens during the night, that does not make the following event a dream sequence. She actually does that.

-Robo (even though he is a robot), kept preciously a seed in his circuits while replanting Fiona's forest, and was then able to create a "Green Dream".

For one, it wasn't a seed...wasn't it dew or something which he kept under pressure for 200 years?

-In RD, Serge(s)'s adventure(s) sound(s) just like a huge dream repeating itself.

Actually, it's all a part of a journal featuring different dimensions more than it is any kind of dream...

Post 500!!!

Hiroshino

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Dreams and Reality in the Chrono Series
« Reply #3 on: December 12, 2004, 12:11:28 am »
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Not dreams, but memories. The events happen in the memories of the Entity. This is what the party sees, but it is also their current reality.


What if this is the dream of the Entity? Nothing states that it was or wasn't.

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-Melchior's dreams are embodied into Masa and Mune.

I have never took this as literal...but I suppose you could...


Maybe you don't take it as literal, but it obviously seems like others do. Nothing states that Melchior was or wasn't being literal.

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-A theory claims that Spekkio is Gaspar's dream.

I don't believe this theory as it uses the previous quote as a way to prove it...


And if they were switched, it would have made no difference. Nothing specifically states that this was or wasn't true.

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-Doreen says she might be the dream of a dream of a dream etc.

She says a bunch of crap that's mostly to just get you thinking about the way Zeal and the people think...She's no more a dream of a dream than she is a bowling ball.


But how do you know this for certain? Nothing specifically states that Doreen was or was not the dream of a dream of a dream of a dream etc etc.

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-During the campfire scene, Lucca's dream of going back in time to save her mother's legs was fulfilled in reality.

Just because someone awakens during the night, that does not make the following event a dream sequence. She actually does that.


That's exactly what the quote says. Lucca regretted the fact that her mother was crippled. I'm sure Lucca would have wanted to of prevented that from ever happening. Mayhaps her dream or wish or whatever you want to call it, was so that her mother wasn't crippled. And yes, you are right, she actually does it by fulfilling her dream or wish of not having her mother crippled.

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-Robo (even though he is a robot), kept preciously a seed in his circuits while replanting Fiona's forest, and was then able to create a "Green Dream".

For one, it wasn't a seed...wasn't it dew or something which he kept under pressure for 200 years?


Regardless of what it was, he was able to create a "Green Dream". I personally forget what it was, and these quotes are not my quotes. I already said they were taken from another forum, so I'll add that all of these quotes are not mine to begin with. And he kept it under pressure for 400 years, not 200. From 600 A.D. to 1000 A.D., and even though Robo was done replanting Fiona's forest in the Present or any time prior to the Present, he still had it kept under pressure in his circuits.

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-In RD, Serge(s)'s adventure(s) sound(s) just like a huge dream repeating itself.

Actually, it's all a part of a journal featuring different dimensions more than it is any kind of dream...


But how do you know that all physical existence in any dimension or time was just a dream?


Again, the quotes that I posted previously in my first post, in this thread, are not my quotes, and were taken from another forum that I frequent. So please do not mistake any of these quotes to be mine. This is just in case anybody might have thought that they were.

V_Translanka

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Dreams and Reality in the Chrono Series
« Reply #4 on: December 25, 2004, 08:33:33 pm »
Quote from: Hiroshino
What if this is the dream of the Entity? Nothing states that it was or wasn't.


Well, in the 200 Year Reunion, it's assumed that what the party (Crono & Co.) saw were the memories of the Entity which was dying and in doing so was trying to show them something important in order to save their world. I was just stating my opinion (of course).

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Maybe you don't take it as literal, but it obviously seems like others do. Nothing states that Melchior was or wasn't being literal.


Well, I was just trying to show that it's also possible that it isn't literal, that some people do not believe Melchior was being literal...I wasn't attacking anything personally dude-a-mong-o (what? I like the word-thingy!).

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And if they were switched, it would have made no difference. Nothing specifically states that this was or wasn't true.


Same as above...

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But how do you know this for certain? Nothing specifically states that Doreen was or was not the dream of a dream of a dream of a dream etc etc.


Again, I don't know for certain, but she also says plenty of other things which she obviously is not...Or something...I mean, she ponders whether or not she is a plate of sashami as well...So if you accept that she is actually a dream of a dream, you must also accept she must be equally be a bowling ball...

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That's exactly what the quote says. Lucca regretted the fact that her mother was crippled. I'm sure Lucca would have wanted to of prevented that from ever happening. Mayhaps her dream or wish or whatever you want to call it, was so that her mother wasn't crippled. And yes, you are right, she actually does it by fulfilling her dream or wish of not having her mother crippled.


Maybe I misread you then...But just to add, a lot of people believe that the Entity created this portal for her specifically...Others believe it was her own will that created it...The latter just seems less likely, if you ask me...

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Regardless of what it was, he was able to create a "Green Dream". I personally forget what it was, and these quotes are not my quotes. I already said they were taken from another forum, so I'll add that all of these quotes are not mine to begin with. And he kept it under pressure for 400 years, not 200. From 600 A.D. to 1000 A.D., and even though Robo was done replanting Fiona's forest in the Present or any time prior to the Present, he still had it kept under pressure in his circuits.


For that one, I was just adding my own two-cents really...And again, I'm not attacking anything you or whoever you're quoting says, just providing alternate views...Don't take it as personal offence to you or something.

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But how do you know that all physical existence in any dimension or time was just a dream?


You've lost me on this one...What do you mean?

Hiroshino

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Dreams and Reality in the Chrono Series
« Reply #5 on: December 25, 2004, 08:56:27 pm »
Oh, sorry about that dude. My apologies.

Quote from: V_Translanka
Well, in the 200 Year Reunion, it's assumed that what the party (Crono & Co.) saw were the memories of the Entity which was dying and in doing so was trying to show them something important in order to save their world. I was just stating my opinion (of course).


Well, it was really the 400 Year Reunion, unless it said somewhere it was the 200 Year Reunion and I missed it. But you do bring up an interesting point there. If it was the Entity's memories, these events would have to of happened in real life and not just a dream..but, you can never be sure. For all we know, everything we knew in the Chrono series and in its existence, it could all just be some dream.

Quote from: V_Translanka
Well, I was just trying to show that it's also possible that it isn't literal, that some people do not believe Melchior was being literal...I wasn't attacking anything personally dude-a-mong-o (what? I like the word-thingy!).


Quote from: V_Translanka
Same as above...


Sorry about that. Yeah, I see what you mean. Melchior could have been both literal or not literal about Masa and Mune and the sword being made from his dreams, or something like that. But Spekkio's existence seems suspicious..but maybe that's just me, I don't know.

Quote from: V_Translanka
Again, I don't know for certain, but she also says plenty of other things which she obviously is not...Or something...I mean, she ponders whether or not she is a plate of sashami as well...So if you accept that she is actually a dream of a dream, you must also accept she must be equally be a bowling ball...


You do have a point there. But, who knows, maybe if she is a dream of a dream etc, maybe she dreamt herself up as these things?? Just a thought.

Quote from: V_Translanka
Maybe I misread you then...But just to add, a lot of people believe that the Entity created this portal for her specifically...Others believe it was her own will that created it...The latter just seems less likely, if you ask me...


The former would seem to make sense. The Entity was responsible for the creation of most of the portals while Lavos' immense energy/power was responsible for a few others. The Entity could have made that Red Time Gate for Lucca so she could go and save her mom. Hmm, wow, I can't really see anything to add to this. It's possible the Entity could have done it, or the theory of how her dream influenced it or something like that..

Quote from: V_Translanka
For that one, I was just adding my own two-cents really...And again, I'm not attacking anything you or whoever you're quoting says, just providing alternate views...Don't take it as personal offence to you or something.


Oh, it's cool. I was probably uptight or something, but no worries.

Quote from: V_Translanka
You've lost me on this one...What do you mean?


What I mean by that, is everything. Dimensions, universes, planets, the Entity, humanity, life, the whole physical existence of everything that is and ever will be, EVERYTHING. Not yelling or anything, just trying to show you what I mean. And I mean all of this and all of what's beyond the universe and multi universes, etc etc. All the timelines. Everything. Everything that exists that hasn't passed on to the spiritual realm after death. Perhaps all of existence was just merely a dream of the Entity or whoever/whatever??

Leebot

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Dreams and Reality in the Chrono Series
« Reply #6 on: December 25, 2004, 09:19:39 pm »
Quote from: Hiroshino
For all we know, everything we knew in the Chrono series and in its existence, it could all just be some dream.


Let's not go there. (SO3 SPOILERS) Players of Star Ocean 3 were, in general, outraged to find out that the universe for the series was an artificial creation (even within the game). It takes away a lot of the meaning if you acknowledge within the game that it's fake (unless this is a breaking-the-fourth-wall joke like in Secret of Evermore). From the perspective of the real world, of course it's a dream. Within the game, it should be real.

Hiroshino

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Dreams and Reality in the Chrono Series
« Reply #7 on: December 25, 2004, 09:32:03 pm »
Quote from: Leebot
Quote from: Hiroshino
For all we know, everything we knew in the Chrono series and in its existence, it could all just be some dream.


Let's not go there. (SO3 SPOILERS) Players of Star Ocean 3 were, in general, outraged to find out that the universe for the series was an artificial creation (even within the game). It takes away a lot of the meaning if you acknowledge within the game that it's fake (unless this is a breaking-the-fourth-wall joke like in Secret of Evermore). From the perspective of the real world, of course it's a dream. Within the game, it should be real.


I know what you're saying and anyone who can agree. We don't want it to be a dream, heck, I don't want it to be a dream either. But when I look at those quotes and kind of look at things..it made me think. Nobody in the other forum could answer my question about if the whole existence of the Chrono series was a dream or if maybe even parts of it were just dreams. That's why I brought it to the attention of you all. And you never know, it could be a dream, and I'm not saying it is, but it could be...we never know. Even parts of it could be merely dreams.

Quote from: Peaceman
That was all very interesting, but wouldn't it be very anticlimatical if it were all a dream? I mean, Crono dies, gets resurrected, and defeats Lavos, all so that he can save the future. Then, we find out that it was all a dream and the future is still bleak. If the game was really like that, I know I wouldn't love CT as much as I do now!


I wanted to quote you at an earlier date, so I'll quote you now. I wanted to add that, while I agree with you and all, all of those events and memories could all be just a dream, or a dream of a dream etc, or parts of it could be a dream. I'm not saying it is or isn't..but, I'm not entirely sure if it's true or not.

Personally, I want everything in the Chrono series to have really happened and to be resolved someday in a possible new game. I was just taking some things into consideration.

Darmani

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« Reply #8 on: December 26, 2004, 03:27:44 am »
people seem dense about this.

Masa and Mune are entities born of dreams  particularly made so from the Red Knife which becomes the legendary sword, Masamune.

Doreen is their sister the rock the knife and the pendant were carved from were one.  Doreen is the like Masa and Mune only instead of being from the knife she's of the pendant.

She tells you this in the Ocean palace.  That is where Doreen is in the future.  She seems to prefer passive action more than her brothers who either do nothing or enable actions (or practice being the wind).  Its possible the Entity is the creature born of the dream made 'real' by the pendant that would be called Dorreen.  She would be connected/present with the Guardia line (from Ayla's red rock to even the Director of the Dome's who probably has it them as a keepsake much like Marle does).  She acts continously and subtly to destroy Lavos regretting the world he would create.

She awakens to smack the boys in CC because, hey cameo.  The MasterMune is the unity of  the amulet and the sword.  so Serge is probably using it to cross dimensions later or Doreen's accumulated so much power that  she can upgrade the Mastermune and still keep her physical body.

Chrono'99

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« Reply #9 on: December 26, 2004, 06:51:10 am »
Quote from: V_Translanka
Well, in the 200 Year Reunion, it's assumed that what the party (Crono & Co.) saw were the memories of the Entity which was dying and in doing so was trying to show them something important in order to save their world. I was just stating my opinion (of course).

Quote from: V_Translanka
Maybe I misread you then...But just to add, a lot of people believe that the Entity created this portal for her specifically...Others believe it was her own will that created it...The latter just seems less likely, if you ask me...

I think you're contradicting yourself here though. If the whole adventure is actually the Entity recalling the important moments of its life, why would it create the Red Gate for Lucca? Lara having (or not having) her legs crippled doesn't appear to be a very important event in the Entity's life.

Leebot

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« Reply #10 on: December 26, 2004, 12:53:05 pm »
Quote from: Hiroshino
I know what you're saying and anyone who can agree. We don't want it to be a dream, heck, I don't want it to be a dream either. But when I look at those quotes and kind of look at things..it made me think. Nobody in the other forum could answer my question about if the whole existence of the Chrono series was a dream or if maybe even parts of it were just dreams. That's why I brought it to the attention of you all. And you never know, it could be a dream, and I'm not saying it is, but it could be...we never know. Even parts of it could be merely dreams.

The important isn't that we don't want it to be a dream, it's that the writers wouldn't want it to be a dream. This is kind of using a metagame argument here: The writers would have been stupid to make it a dream, so they probably didn't.

Hiroshino

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Dreams and Reality in the Chrono Series
« Reply #11 on: December 26, 2004, 05:13:58 pm »
Quote from: Darmani
Its possible the Entity is the creature born of the dream made 'real' by the pendant that would be called Doreen.


The Entity is the Planet, so how would the Planet have been born from a dream made "real" by the pendant that would be called Doreen, if it hadn't been for the Planet that all of these events take place on?

Quote from: Darmani
She would be connected/present with the Guardia line (from Ayla's red rock to even the Director of the Dome's who probably has it them as a keepsake much like Marle does). She acts continously and subtly to destroy Lavos regretting the world he would create.


The Guardia line didn't even really start until 1 A.D. even though Marle's ancestor from the Dark Ages is most likely the Elder of Algetty/Terra Cave, so Ayla's red rock has nothing to do with this if Doreen was born of the Pendant like Masa and Mune were born of the Red Knife that becomes the Masamune. Also, Ayla isn't Marle's distant ancestor from the Prehistoric times, Kino is. And that would mean that Doreen was "born" in the Dark Ages, not the Prehistoric times. But other than that, yeah, Doreen is pretty much connected with the Guardia line up until the Present time and possibly the future if the Dome Director in 1999 A.D. still has it and if Doan in 2300 A.D. still has it.

Quote from: Darmani
The MasterMune is the unity of the amulet and the sword.


I'm not quite sure about that. In Chrono Cross, play New Game + so you have the Time Egg, and go and get the MasterMune later on. You'll have the Time Egg, the Astral Amulet, and the MasterMune all at the same time. The Time Egg and the Astral Amulet will be separate from each other and at that same time, the MasterMune will also be separate from those items because while you have the MasterMune equipped, you can still use the Astral Amulet to cross dimensions and still use the Time Egg to go to the Darkness Beyond Time. I added the Time Egg in this because sometimes I notice that some people say that the Time Egg is the Astral Amulet or something like that, so I wanted to kind of clear that up too. And you're basically saying that Kid's amulet, the Astral Amulet, the same as Schala's Pendant that was given to Kid after she was cloned/copied/whatever from Schala, was the unity between itself and the MasaMune. Also, the MasaMune ends up being completely destroyed and Masa and Mune find a new home in Serge's weapon which becomes the MasterMune. Whether Doreen joins them or not, or remains in the Pendant, I do not know, I leave that up to the facts.

Quote from: Leebot
The important isn't that we don't want it to be a dream, it's that the writers wouldn't want it to be a dream. This is kind of using a metagame argument here: The writers would have been stupid to make it a dream, so they probably didn't.


Yeah but, examine those quotes that I posted. How can we explains those?

Leebot

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« Reply #12 on: December 26, 2004, 09:14:55 pm »
Those points can be countered in one of the following ways:

-It's just philosophy put into the game (Doreen's dreams, Schala's quote)
-Whoever wrote this theory was grasping at straws to explain some as a dream. Saying it was a "wish" would have explained the same circumstances.
-The designers/translators just chose to use the term "dream" in item names to evoke a certain feel (Dreamstone, Green Dream).
-"Dream" is used as a metaphor (Melchior's dreams -> Masa and Mune)

The only exceptions are Turnip and the Black Dragon. It would seem that the strange connections between Home and Another allow certain dreams to manifest as reality in the alternate dimension, but this is the only definitive case of dreams altering reality.

Aside from that, this whole theory seems to be grasping at straws.

Hiroshino

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Dreams and Reality in the Chrono Series
« Reply #13 on: December 26, 2004, 11:15:59 pm »
Quote from: Leebot
Those points can be countered in one of the following ways:

-It's just philosophy put into the game (Doreen's dreams, Schala's quote)
-Whoever wrote this theory was grasping at straws to explain some as a dream. Saying it was a "wish" would have explained the same circumstances.
-The designers/translators just chose to use the term "dream" in item names to evoke a certain feel (Dreamstone, Green Dream).
-"Dream" is used as a metaphor (Melchior's dreams -> Masa and Mune)

The only exceptions are Turnip and the Black Dragon. It would seem that the strange connections between Home and Another allow certain dreams to manifest as reality in the alternate dimension, but this is the only definitive case of dreams altering reality.

Aside from that, this whole theory seems to be grasping at straws.


Hmm, you bring up very interesting points there. I must say that I am relieved that this all could be countered.

So I ask you. Was it all a dream, were parts if it merely dreams, or was it all reality and events that truly occurred?

That question, which has been bothering me, has been asked before and now I think I can finally find the answer to it...

Leebot

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« Reply #14 on: December 27, 2004, 10:18:44 am »
Within the game's universe, I would say that this all really happened, but that the mechanics of this universe allow dreams to affect reality in certain circumstances (Turnip and the Black Dragon).