Author Topic: Atheism  (Read 14481 times)

FaustWolf

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Re: Atheism
« Reply #15 on: January 06, 2008, 01:26:42 am »
@MsBlack: I don't mean to characterize myself as willfully incorrect -- I mean to characterize myself as believing that the presence of a Supreme Being happens to make the most logical sense to me personally, as it provides an explanation for the origin of the universe. Hence my reference to Occam's Razor:  "All other things being equal, the simplest solution is the best." But what really matters -- more than whether I'm even using Occam's Razor correctly here  :mrgreen: -- is how human beings treat each other, and I believe any belief system is "valid" inasmuch as it has something positive to offer in that regard. This is the only way I can find to judge the "validity" of a belief system because no belief system has a monopoly on truth.

I find MsBlack's point about religious people rejecting certain parts of their religion out of convenience particularly fascinating. True, this happens quite frequently; a Catholic might spend his or her time studying for an exam as opposed to attending Mass, for example (Don't look at me  :mrgreen:).

But we must explore further the topic of rejecting certain aspects of one's religion. Might there be a reason besides convenience that the religious person may be justified in rejecting parts of his or her religion? This is going to be controversial, but I believe one of the purposes of religion is to ethically challenge the religious by confronting them with commands that are, at times, unethical. The religious person makes the "right" choice by rejecting those commands in scripture that are "wrong" based on...some rubric. The key challenge for the religious individual is to discover the rubric by which to determine whether a command should be followed. That probably makes little sense, so here's an example...

The Book of Leviticus gets picked on a lot, and I must apologize for lifting an example from it. Yes, it's the homosexuality example. Leviticus 20:13 tells Christians that homosexuals are to be put to death -- at least in the translation Wikipedia presents. And yet, Jesus says in the New Testament, "Do unto others as ye would have them do unto you." Now, one book's telling me I should put someone to death because of a biological factor that person happened to be born with, but jeez, I wouldn't want someone to put me to death because I happen to have red hair. Yes, I'm expanding the example for simplicity, but the basic gist of my argument is that I feel I have to weigh certain parts of my religion against others and, if there's a conflict, I need to determine which is more important. In the end, the more "peaceful" approach wins out because I'd rather go with the basic spirit of Jesus' ethics than what the Book of Leviticus suggests I do. Jesus set a precedent for this sort of thing by defying a Sabbath law as reported in Mark 2:23 ~ 2:28. By picking grain on the Sabbath, Jesus demonstrated that, at times, human needs outweigh canonical law. I guess that's the rubric by which I decide which scriptual commandments of my religion are more "important" than others.

In sum, religious texts might provide challenges that help us grow ethically through the paradoxical rejection of certain parts. May my soul burn in Hell for eternity for saying that, but it's what I feel in my gut.

Bah, enough of my ill-informed religious quibbling for one night. We all know Alfador is the Entity anyway :P.
« Last Edit: January 06, 2008, 01:28:51 am by FaustWolf »

MsBlack

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Re: Atheism
« Reply #16 on: January 06, 2008, 01:32:02 am »
@Zeppy: I never claimed to have empirical evidence to disprove God. I merely pointed out that faith is illogical.
« Last Edit: January 06, 2008, 01:48:59 am by MsBlack »

Kebrel

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Re: Atheism
« Reply #17 on: January 06, 2008, 01:37:07 am »
I am reading this discussion and I have notice neither view has elaborated on why man can not comprehend a creature as a god. Is it because god is some invisible force, if so look at gravity. Is it the behavior or thought process, look at how much we know of honeybees. Or is god simple a whole another form of existence, I bring forth bacteria.

I love reading everyones posts they are quite enlightening.

Burning Zeppelin

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Re: Atheism
« Reply #18 on: January 06, 2008, 01:46:17 am »
Good ol' Z the romantic. Now if only you'd get over your Naruto obsession :P Don't worry, Naruto's alright.

@MsBlack: You seem to think of God as some sort of humanistic being. God is, for all you know, an abstract, ethereal idea, or something else weird and wonderful.

The parents may not be right to tell Little Timmy to kill his sister because they created them both, because the parents did not create them both, all they did was start a natural biological process, that they are inclined to do due to natural survival instincts. However, we must go further into ethical theory. Who says murder is wrong? The law. Why does the law say so. Because no one wants to be killed. However, what if someone wants to kill? Who are we to judge them based on what they wish to do? If Mr Y and Mrs X wish for Timmy to kill his little sister because they sustain them both, then it is legally wrong, and morally wrong for me because my parents told me so, my teachers told me so, and because my God told me so. But if I was born without guilt, and I live without guilt or fear of punishment from a higher being, then why should I hesitate to kill someone out of my own enjoyment? Because the persons family will be sad? What do I care about their family. And that is where your idea of fixed morality in the absence of a higher rule maker enters the town of fail.

@Zeality: You are forgetting many of the evils religion extinguished. Although Islam progressively became stricter in Arabia to gain more followers (for example, banning alcohol before prayer to banning it outright), one of the first things it did do was to ban the tradition of killing infant girls by burying them alive.

@Krispin: This carries on from what I was saying about Islam. Just as you said about reason developing in religion, this was definetely present in Islam. The first words spoken to Muhammad (apparently, non-Muslims obviously believed he made it up) was Read! - in the name of your Lord. He in fact got this message while dwelling in a cave pondering the universe. His followers were told to look at the world before accepting Islam. This was not the blind faith present today.

And Z doesn't really sound too much like a Nietzchian. The first thing I think about when I hear Nietzche is his disgusting notion of power over the weak and might is right. He is more like his opposite, Kant.

EDIT@MsBlack: I respect your opinion, and although I oppose your philosophical stance, I probably respect it more than those of the Atheists, Christians and even many Muslims I know of. I agree that if religion had never existed, it may of been a better world, but it would only work if God had never existed and if the world would of continued on in the same way. Or something.

EDIT@FaustWolf: Book of Leviticus = Old Testament. Jesus = New Testament. Also, I'm pretty sure your God expects homosexuals to accept being put to death.

EDIT@Kebrel: Why can we not comprehend God? Why? Can you comprehend a colour that you have never seen? Could you comprehend sound if you were born deaf, comprehend sight if blind? Could you comprehend innocence if all you see was sin? Just like that, you can not comprehend God, because God has made sure that he can not be comprehended. If we could comprehend, we would challenge. If we could see, we would outright believe. Comprehending God in the normal sense would require seeing with our eyes, an inherent human quality. If you told me there was a fire in my house, I would not believe that strongly til I saw it, and even then, I would not completely believe it til I feel it. What God wants you to do is beyond that, believe so much that you feel as though you can see God, and that god is as close to you as, quote, "your jugular vein". And although an atheist would laugh at the proposition to believe without seeing, or feeling physically, as I often do (I have no yet reached this level of...enlightenment, and I feel as though I never will), it is something people sometimes achieve. But even so, we can not comprehend God.

You bring up gravity, you call it an invisible force. Force. That's the key word. We know of it because we can feel it, and because we can see the effect it has on distant objects. We see that the moon orbits around the Earth, and we the Sun. We wonder why. And we will always wonder why, because gravity, although proven, has not been yet proven as to why it works. Correct be if I'm wrong, but gravity is the bend in space-time, right? Space-time itself is quite a farfetched idea (albeit one I believe in), and being bent is on a whole another level.

You bring up bees, and although they are quite a brilliant species, they are not that special. Many other insects follow their social pattern, like ants. It's another way of survival. They are small creatures, so they need to work as a society to advance. But not all bees work in communals, some work alone. But unlike God, bees are working for survival, and any method will do. There is no point comparing a creature that has weak flesh to one that has none at all. There is no point comparing creatures that are slaves to each other to one that has no master.

You bring up bacteria, and...what can I say? They grow, the multiply, they grow, they multiply. Just like human beings, although they of course do it on a whole different level, and without the whole intelligence thing. They are made up of the same thing that we are made of, so it is not so difficult to figure out how they grow. They are semi-animate objects, basically living machines. Starfish have no brain, and yet they still live. But it still isn't very hard to figure how they do it. Now the virus, there is something to wonder about.

And I too enjoy these discussions - it's the only reason I decided to come back.
« Last Edit: January 06, 2008, 02:04:34 am by Burning Zeppelin »

MsBlack

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Re: Atheism
« Reply #19 on: January 06, 2008, 01:49:04 am »
@Faustwolf: But this is all on the assumption you heed an ancient book that, without evidence to label it truth, is effectivlely a book akin to Aesop's fables. You shouldn't need a book to tell you what is right or what's wrong. Fair enough, if the book's teachings on morality happen to be correct, then extract that. But making leaps of faith to believe a magic man created the universe just because it said so in the book you acknowledge is intentionally paradoxical is illogical. And Occam's razor states that nothing should be assumed, save that which is irrelevant to the issue at hand. So, you are in fact 'violating' Occam's razor.

@Zeppy: When I've said murder is wrong, I've meant utterly unprovoked, pointless murder, just to clarify. I've been wondering when I'd come up against this argument, and now that time has come. I'll have to further ponder the answer to this, and it may not be something I ever manage to put my finger on. It's aomething I 'just know', but that is not good enough. Using that as my response to you would be hypocritical, no better than the faith argument.

But this is all getting off the point. Whether my morality is right or not doesn't necessarily correlate to whether God(s)'s is. And when willy-nilly murder is permissible, morality goes out the window and so God's morality becomes moot.
« Last Edit: January 06, 2008, 02:05:55 am by MsBlack »

FaustWolf

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Re: Atheism
« Reply #20 on: January 06, 2008, 01:54:40 am »
Oh, make no mistake -- I don't believe a magic man created the universe because a book said so. I believe a Being of inherently unknowable nature created the universe because, in my mind, it's what makes sense. Yeah, I knew I'd get cut on Occam's razor  :mrgreen:.

Burning Zeppelin

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Re: Atheism
« Reply #21 on: January 06, 2008, 02:05:58 am »


@MsBlack: I thought I had you there, but you decided not to be hypocritical, so good on you. But I was talking about out of the blue murder, and why in a world which has no preconcieved nothions of morality, it is not necessarily wrong. The only reason people accept that murder is wrong is so they themselves are not murdered. But what happens when you are threatened with your life? You kill. Bam, murder has become acceptable.

But this is coming from some guy whos major philosophical background is a school course, art books on Surrealism and modern art, a couple of Giants of Philosophy audiobooks, Wikipedia and 2001: A Space Odyssey.
« Last Edit: January 06, 2008, 02:10:22 am by Burning Zeppelin »

MsBlack

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Re: Atheism
« Reply #22 on: January 06, 2008, 02:09:53 am »
Bwahaha you joker, Faustwolf. Ahem. Just because a theory is possible and cannot be disproven, doesn't make it true. See Russell's teapot [wikipedia].
« Last Edit: January 06, 2008, 02:12:23 am by MsBlack »

FaustWolf

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Re: Atheism
« Reply #23 on: January 06, 2008, 02:13:28 am »
Burning Zeppelin has scored a convert through this thread! A convert to Savage Chickens, that is. I needed something after the Far Side's discontinue-ment.

I'll have to look up this teapot you speak of, MsBlack, and see how I can burn myself on it.

EDIT: Hmm, it seems the teapot fosters all the mayhem Zeality speaks of in regard to religion. God help us in a world of teapots.

HILARIOUS EDIT: Hahahaha!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flying_Spaghetti_Monster

This thread has led to some really great discoveries. Ahem -- Mr. Krispin, sorry for the funnies in this most serious thread. But it's important to interject some hilarity in these philisophical discussions.
« Last Edit: January 06, 2008, 03:30:45 am by FaustWolf »

Burning Zeppelin

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Re: Atheism
« Reply #24 on: January 06, 2008, 02:14:39 am »
Just because a theory isn't possible and can not be proven, doesn't make it false. Err...or something.

I forgot to mention that another part of my philosophical background is the Discworld series. :roll:

I'm glad I could help FaustWolf :lol:

MsBlack

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Re: Atheism
« Reply #25 on: January 06, 2008, 02:18:53 am »
Right, but to assume it's true and centre your life around it is stupid. Otherwise you'd have to worship every possible God for every possible religion there could be, extant or not, merely becuse they are just about feasible. This would include half-chicken half-razor Gods.

FaustWolf

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Re: Atheism
« Reply #26 on: January 06, 2008, 02:41:59 am »
True, MsBlack, people's lives should not revolve around an Almighty Half-Chicken Half-Razor Teapot Spaghetti Monster Dragon God. I only wish to say that, for some people (maybe just for me), reality seems incomplete unless an unknowable factor (call it the spiritual realm, a God, etc) is brought in to provide an explanation for certain things like the universe's origin. Humanity's origins lying in space goop, I can understand. The universe having no beginning, I cannot. Everything must have a beginning, and if empirical science cannot provide the answer, I, for my part, must turn to religion. Not that I take the Good Book literally, of course.

Zeality, I may flay people's skin off in the name of my religion someday, but I solemnly promise you -- I won't break any teapots. :wink:

Burning Zeppelin

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Re: Atheism
« Reply #27 on: January 06, 2008, 02:46:18 am »
One is better than none. I'll use Christianity here as an example.



↓=correct/→=beliefNo GodChristianityMultiple Religions
No GodGoodGoodGood
ChristianityBadGoodBad
Religion w/ belief neededBadBadBad
Religion w/ no belief needed/reincarnation?GoodGoodGood



Of course, for the No God row, it is assuming that you do not mind dissolving into nothingness, and for reincarnation, it's assuming you do not mind coming back as a dung beetle or something.

EDIT: And since when were you a Guru of Time FaustWolf?

EDIT 2: I'll explain the table a bit more. The down column is what turns out to be right. The one going to the right (or the x-axis) is what you believe in. Now, say there is no God in the end. No one loses. You lived your life how you wanted, and now you are dead. But what if Christianity was right in the end? Then you not lose if there is no God, and you'll win if the Christian God exists. But if the Christian God is wrong and another one is right, and if you did not believe in him than you are condemned? You'll lose no matter what you believe in. But if there is another God and he doesn't care (I should care to say that when I say God I mean God, Gods, Goddess, Goddesses, and no capitalization variations), then you're clear. Now if you look at the columns, Christianity has the most Goods. Christianity can be replaced with any religion where belief is needed.
« Last Edit: January 06, 2008, 03:05:10 am by Burning Zeppelin »

ZeaLitY

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Re: Atheism
« Reply #28 on: January 06, 2008, 02:54:22 am »
Since he made tangible, big contributions to the Chrono fan community!

MsBlack

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Re: Atheism
« Reply #29 on: January 06, 2008, 02:55:22 am »
Unfrotunately, I don't understand what the table means exactly. Why is one better than none? And Faustwolf, where did the creator come from, as it would have had to have had a creator itself (that's one "have had" too many for me)?