Author Topic: Psychological Disorders and Janus  (Read 7651 times)

Swordmaster

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« Reply #30 on: December 10, 2004, 09:33:17 pm »
This idea of pleasure and unpleasure seens only applicable for live beings.
Withou life theres no pleasure nor unpleasure, so how the negative utilitarist would compare who is better: before or after.

Leebot

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« Reply #31 on: December 10, 2004, 11:24:08 pm »
Simple: No displeasure > Some displeasure

Swordmaster

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« Reply #32 on: December 11, 2004, 09:47:28 pm »
Withou life theres no pleasure and theres no unpleasure.
Do not have pleasure is acceptable for the Negative Utilitarist(Uilitarian?), or have no pleasure whatsover could not be considered unpleasantness ?.

Leebot

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« Reply #33 on: December 11, 2004, 11:53:52 pm »
NU advocates don't take pleasure into account at all. To them No Pleasure = Some Pleasure.

Swordmaster

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« Reply #34 on: December 18, 2004, 10:01:31 pm »
But  the NU and PU ideas of goodness and evilness seens based in hedonism to measure the result of each action(utility of the action).
So what is the utility of the vacuum ?

Leebot

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« Reply #35 on: December 18, 2004, 11:46:14 pm »
Hedonism may be applicable to normal Utilitarianism, but it has no bearing on NU. In NU, the greatest goal is avoidance of pain. In a "vacuum" there's absolutely zero pain, so it's the ultimate goal.

Hiroshino

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« Reply #36 on: December 20, 2004, 07:36:44 pm »
Has anyone ever considered that those who have felt displeasure, who finally achieve no feeling of displeasure or pleasure, may consider this pleasure since they aren't feeling the displeasure that they once felt? Obviously if your feeling displeasure, and you achieve the state of feeling nothing (not feeling pleasure or displeasure), that this to them may be considered pleasure. And like Hadriel said, Nihilism seems more of a behavior philosophy than a political one. That's just my thought about all of that.

As for the topic. I do believe that Janus has some sort of disorder. Whatever that disorder is, I leave that up to you all. However, it would appear that Janus would have AS because I've looked up on it. Janus does carry symptoms of AS. For instance, I read something about people who have AS who tend to have a repeating hand motion or something. I forget but if that's true, notice how Janus, as Magus, flexes his hand every time he risks casting a spell or is about to cast Dark Matter. Repeating hand motion right there. And he does seem to have some of the disorders that War mentioned. As for Janus seeking help; I highly doubt that he would.

Leebot

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« Reply #37 on: December 20, 2004, 07:56:17 pm »
Well, nihilism has its roots as a political philosophy. It was essentially used as an excuse for barbarism.

Hiroshino

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« Reply #38 on: December 20, 2004, 08:04:54 pm »
Quote from: Leebot
Well, nihilism has its roots as a political philosophy. It was essentially used as an excuse for barbarism.


Hmm, well in that case, I stand corrected. I never even knew about Nihilism until I read this thread to be truthful.

Swordmaster

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« Reply #39 on: December 20, 2004, 09:21:02 pm »
The NU base the actions in the consequences of actions, so to a being wish the annihilation of life it need know the consequencesof the action and if theres no more chances of right the things in current order.
After this it need destroy the values of things, the "common sense": a being can think the Life as the higher value of the Universe, even with all displesure (some can think that the existence of life in a universe so violent and full of displesure is a proof that theres more pleasure in the universe or balance , than displesure and harm).
So what we use to destroy the idea of life?

Leebot

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« Reply #40 on: December 20, 2004, 09:52:03 pm »
Speaking from the NU standpoint: Who cares about righting things? At most, that'll get rid of some displeasure. Just get rid of everything, that'll get rid of all displeasure.

On nihilism...
Quote from: Wikipedia
As a Russian political philosophy marked by the questioning of the validity of all forms of authority and a penchant for destruction as the primary tool for political change, nihilism finds its roots in 1817 with the foundation of the first Russian secret political society under Pavel Pestel. Partly as a reaction against the coronation of Tsar Nicholas I who was seen as an absolutist, especially after the comparatively open reign of Tsar Alexander I, it culminated in the Decembrist Revolt of 1825. Later, anarchist and freemason Mikhail Bakunin developed nihilist thought in opposition to Karl Marx's political philosophy, which Bakunin saw as inevitably leading to a totalitarian state.

Nihilist political philosophy rejected all religious and political authority, social traditions, and traditional morality as standing in opposition to freedom, the ultimate ideal. In this sense, it can be seen as an extreme form of anarchism. The state thus became the enemy, and the enemy was ferociously attacked. After gaining much momentum in Russia, the movement degenerated into what were essentially terrorist cells, barren of any real unifying philosophy beyond the call for destruction.

Nihilism greatly resembled anarchism, though there are three main points of difference:

Nihilism advocated violence as the best method to affect political change. This is not necessarily the case with anarchism (see Emma Goldman).
Nihilism was characterized by a rejection of all systems of authority and all social conventions. This is not necessarily the case with anarchism. In fact, many forms of anarchism rely on the existence or creation of a strong community.
As a political movement, nihilism was primarily a Russian phenomenon.


It also has a pure philosophical side, but this came after the political side. The philosophical sense comes mostly from Nietzche's work (he opposed it, but was the first to analyze it), which was during the late 19th century.

Swordmaster

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« Reply #41 on: December 21, 2004, 09:18:22 pm »
It need something do "nihilate" the values we give to things. If life mean nothing...  
Nihilsm is too, some force that affect the humankind at some point of History were old values are gone and new ones appear or grow strong.
Some manics try speed up the things and we got the Political Nihilism.
End with all displesure seens like very Utopic for the NU ideas, just like the normal Utilitarianism.

Leebot

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« Reply #42 on: December 21, 2004, 11:58:32 pm »
Here's how NU and U differ. Say both are offered the chance to erase the universe with no pain to anyone. Here are their responses:

NU: Why the hell not? Go for it!

U: That depends. Is there more pleasure or displeasure in the universe? If there's more displeasure, is it possible to change this?

<humor>NU: What is this "pleasure" of which you speak?

U: It's the whole reason we live! It's the only way one's life can have value!

NU: Wait, we live for a reason? I thought it was just some evil deity torturing us for his amusement.

PC: That should be "his or her amusement."

NU: See, that's annoying, so it's displeasurable, so it's bad.

U: It may be annoying to you, but it makes feminists less annoyed.

NU: Well, yeah, I can see that. Other people having less displeasure is good, too.

U: It also makes pricks happy. They love correcting people.

NU: You've lost me.

U: If it makes others happy, it's good.

NU: "Happy"?

U: Pleasurable.

NU: (blank stare)

U: Good.

NU: Oh! You mean less displeasure!

U: No! Not displeasure, pleasure.

NU: That's a lack of displeasure, right?

U: No, it's a different, good thing. It's what you get when you drop the "dis-" prefix from displeasure. You get the opposite.

NU: Right: no displeasure. None is the opposite of some.

U: (sputters out of control)</humor>

EDIT: Ach! Grammar, she be a fickle lass!

Swordmaster

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« Reply #43 on: December 22, 2004, 09:50:18 pm »
Quote

NU: Wait, we live for a reason? I thought it was just some evil deity torturing us for his amusement.


This is a nihilist sentiment. next he wil want do a Deicide.

Hiroshino

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« Reply #44 on: December 26, 2004, 02:08:53 am »
Quote from: War
Narcissistic Personality Disorder: Marked by an exagerrated sense of self importance, self centeredness, an exploitive attitude, and lack of empathy.


Janus does show some sense of self importance and self centeredness with his arrogant ways as a prince, does he not? He does have a lack of empathy which has gone on throughout his entire life, and that's telling us something too.

Quote from: War
Obsessive Compulsive Disorder: Persistant, recurring, involuntary thoughts (obsessions) or behaviors (compulsions), or both.


Janus' vengeance against Lavos plays a key factor role in Obsessive Compulsive Disorder. Janus is obviously peristant in avenging his sister and wanting to kill Lavos. This leads me to also believe that he may have persistant, recurring, and involuntary thoughts that lead to involuntary behaviors that play a role in his desire for revenge. All his life he's wanted this, do you think Janus is going to stop after losing everything but the clothes on his back and his own life? I think not.

Quote from: War
Major Depressive Disorder: Refers to overwhelming feelings of sadness, despair, worthlessness, and hopelessness, and in extreme cases, suicide.


I'm sure that Janus has had this happen. I'm sure that he didn't start out all gung-ho on killing Lavos and shit. I bet when he started out surviving that he was having overwhelming feelings of sadness and despair over the loss of his sister and everything that he had. He may have felt overwhelming feelings of worthlessness and hopelessness in allowing such an event to happen and such a thing to happen to his sister, and might have thought things such as, "If only I had done this.." But I'm not sure, but it would make sense in my opinion. I doubt Janus was suicidal though since he was obviously hellbent on revenge and finding his sister. But, I'm sure there may have been times that he thought of ending it all...you never know.

Quote from: War
Dystymia: A milder form of depression than Major Depressive Disorder; none the less is chronic.


If the above disorder does not fit Janus as severe, this would, in my opinion.

Quote from: War
Disorganized Schizophrenia: Is marked by extreme social withdrawel, hallucinations, delusions, and bizarre behavior.


I don't know if Janus had hallucinations or delusions but it would seem obvious that he was extremely socially withdrawn and I doubt that some of his behavior was seen as "normal" and may have been considered bizarre, but I do not truly know.

My opinion; if Janus doesn't privately and publicly express all the symptoms of these disorders, he at least expresses one or more symptoms of each said disorders including Asperger's Syndrome. And as I have stated before, whether he has knowledge of his disorders or not, I would highly doubt that he would ever seek help or even pay the disorders a second thought.

This is all just in my opinion and from my inferences on the matter.