Author Topic: Another "interesting" theory  (Read 5702 times)

Radical_Dreamer

  • Entity
  • Zurvan Surfer (+2500)
  • *
  • Posts: 2778
    • View Profile
    • The Chrono Compendium
Another "interesting" theory
« Reply #30 on: February 02, 2006, 10:00:11 pm »
Quote from: JossiRossi
Well technically we have stopped evolving in any real constructive manner. Evolution of sexual reproducing species occurs pretty much exclusively in small, stressed populations. Human beings are (for the moment) perfectly evolved. However, being perfectly evolved and perfect are 2 vastly different things. Being perfectly evolved means that a species is capable of reproduction in it's current enviroment. If a species exists and it is capable of maintaining it's numbers then evolution ceases to occur. It simply stops. Evolution for mankind has not occured in a major form in tens of thousands of years. Small changes may have occured one I can think of off the top of my head is a predominance aof a single sickle cell anemia gene in humans from certain locations because having a single gene of that type gives some disease protection. However, nothing major as to change a human into something else has occured or will likely ever occur.


Incorrect. Humans are not perfectly adapted to our environment. That we can maintain numbers is not indicative of evolutionary "perfection". The Neanderthals were by all measures better adapted for the ice age than we were, yet in the end, we won out. Evolution doesn't just stop, that's a ridiculous assertion. Genes mutations don't just suddenly stop because we can maintain our numbers.

With sickle-cell, you are refering to what is called heterozygous advantage, which is a trait that evolves. Another example of this is found in Ashkenasi Jews, and evolved in the last few hundred years. Blink of an eye in evolutionary terms; humans are still evolving, and will continue to do so until we go extinct.

Hell, the shape of the human skull has been changing over the last few centuries.

Quote from: JossiRossi
Humanity in all likelyhood is in it's final naturally evolved state. I have no doubt that in the future humanity will alter its genetic code for favorable traits, but it won't be natural. However one could argue that even artificial manipulatation is evolutionary because it was the products of our evolutionary changes that eventually led to us having the tools capable of such modifications.


Evolution is a process, not a goal. The "final" state will be whatever state the last generation of humans finds itself in.

Quote from: JossiRossi
Well gah, anyway, humanity is done evolving for now. Until human populations get stressed and change is needed for survival then evolution is stalled.


I will say this...ecological stress will accelerate our evolution, you are correct in this. But it has not stopped.

Namara

  • Porrean (+50)
  • *
  • Posts: 90
    • View Profile
Another "interesting" theory
« Reply #31 on: February 03, 2006, 09:19:00 am »
People like to think that human kind is done evolving because it's hard to see what we could possibly turn into.  Mankind is still evolving though, such as how we have as a whole gotten taller than we were 500 years ago (though not by much).  No, evolution isn't done with us yet.

Legend of the Past

  • Errare Explorer (+1500)
  • *
  • Posts: 1679
    • View Profile
Another "interesting" theory
« Reply #32 on: February 03, 2006, 10:13:50 am »
Some do believe that humans will never evolve again because instead of adapting to the enviroment, they adapt the enviorment to them. They keep looking at Natural Selection as the only way to evolve, while every generation is more evolved then the one before, because the gene pool has become greater and more detailed.

JossiRossi

  • Porrean (+50)
  • *
  • Posts: 90
    • View Profile
    • Http://spriteville.comicgen.com
Another "interesting" theory
« Reply #33 on: February 03, 2006, 11:41:01 am »
Quote from: Radical_Dreamer
Incorrect. Humans are not perfectly adapted to our environment. That we can maintain numbers is not indicative of evolutionary "perfection". The Neanderthals were by all measures better adapted for the ice age than we were, yet in the end, we won out. Evolution doesn't just stop, that's a ridiculous assertion. Genes mutations don't just suddenly stop because we can maintain our numbers.

The fact is that evolution is not always a forward moving process. It doesn't make people be more complex or necesarily better. It's only goal is to maximize adaptability to an enviroment. There are plenty of cases where a human being would seem inadequate. For example: No claws, relatively weak muscles, takes a long time to raise young (most animals have some kind of chance at survival if you just dump them on the ground, huamn babies wouldn't last long. Most not all animals). Humans for the most part have no natural offensive or defensive abilities. However, there are two things that makes a human perfectly evolved for our enviroment and that is our brains and oposable thumbs. We don't need claws, tough skin, or any of the other specializations because we can think of a way to work around them or simulate them. The fact is that with a human brain even if the body is unsuited for an area (where it's too hot, where it too cold, ect.) we still survive. Take any animal grossly out of its natural enviroment into one vastly different it will most like die, do that to a human and its survival is dependant not on its body as an animal, but on its mind.

As for mutations stopping, no definitly not. Although it likely sounded that way from how I stated things. Evolution is not a one person thing, its not a small group thing, its a species thing. A single person gets a mutation that gene isn't going to be too important without pressure. If a gene is not needed (i.e. doesn't help the person have kids) then the gene will not be of any major importance. It'll exist but will have no strong prevelance.

I say evolution has stopped because our species is at the point where there is no reproductive pressure (save for constant widespread disease in an area, or reproductive problems) nearly any person on this planet that is capable of having kids can do so, it makes no difference whether their genes are of any quality. In smaller populations where food is scarce and predators hunt them, only the top most suitable 25% of a group might survive. That 25% is chosen on luck (I can't discredit this) and their genes. How strong are they naturally, how smart, how fast, disease resistent, aggressive, passive, ect. all matter.

Without such pressures then the "bad" genes and the "good" genes all exist in the pot. Evolution stalls because nothing is there to kill off the "bad" ones and to promote the "good" ones. If we ever get some kind of pressure back then evolution will pick up.

Quote
With sickle-cell, you are refering to what is called heterozygous advantage, which is a trait that evolves. Another example of this is found in Ashkenasi Jews, and evolved in the last few hundred years. Blink of an eye in evolutionary terms; humans are still evolving, and will continue to do so until we go extinct.

Some groups do have some pressures that lead to changes. Such as long standing disease in an area. In fact you can begin to see the results of this in Africa where Aids is so prevelant and being such a debilitating disease that some populations have developed resistance to the disease, some people seemingly unable to catch it. This is evolution in a way but until the whole species aquires these genes I don't know if that counts.

Quote
Evolution is a process, not a goal. The "final" state will be whatever state the last generation of humans finds itself in.

I will say this...ecological stress will accelerate our evolution, you are correct in this. But it has not stopped.

Evolution is a process but it has a goal that is reachable. Once a population no longer needs to change in order to reproduce sucessfully then evolution no longer does anything. As stated above there are places where changes are needed to reproduce successfully (like populations with high prevelance of aids) but they are for smaller groups, not the species as a whole. I say that evolution has stopped because what our bodies might be inadequate with, our minds make up for. As our technologies and knowledge advance there will be less and less factors stressing our population. New medicines to kill disease (thus preventing our bodies from naturally developing those defences), new fertility drugs or pregancy techniques (thus allowing genes that evolution would normally kill to continue). Our brains have slowly been making it so that evolution no longer works. Evolution is designed to make a species suitable to its enviroment. Humans now make their enviroments suitable to their species. Everything evolution does humans are now able to do or are working on being able to do. So maybe it's not 100% stopped but its only a matter of time.

Radical_Dreamer

  • Entity
  • Zurvan Surfer (+2500)
  • *
  • Posts: 2778
    • View Profile
    • The Chrono Compendium
Another "interesting" theory
« Reply #34 on: February 03, 2006, 04:34:42 pm »
To say that a mutation isn't evolution because it only affects a given population of the species, and not the species on the whole is the opposite of the truth. In fact, this is the manner in which many new species are created. The split between chimps and bonobos was most likely a (few) mutation that was only present in one or two groups of the species. Then things such as the Founder Effect kicked in, and bam! Two species where at first there was only one.

You are incorrect in your characterization of AIDS resistance in Africa. People did not evolve it because of the prevelance of AIDS in the region. It's a random mutation that became adaptive because of the prevelence of AIDS in the region. The mutation occurs at some low rate in the global population, but since there is less pressure from AIDS on the global poplulation than in Sub-Saharan Africa, it is often not noticed, and provides no (known) adaptive benefits. No person or entity chose for people to evolve that trait. The inheritence of aquired characteristics is a failed model of evolution, not that I think you were aiming to argue it.

I agree that humans, more than any other species, have the ability to shape our environment. We are capable of interfering in our own evolution. I'm going to ignore the ethical implications, as they are beyond the scope of this discussion, but it will suffice to say, that for better or worse, humans can have a great effect on when traits are adaptive or not. There was some discussion of this same issue in General Discussion, regarding the social context of skill desirability (musician vs. hunter gatherer). But the fact that human beings can influence our evolution to a great degree does not mean that evolution has stopped, simply that an aditional mechanism for it to work in now exists.

ChronoMagus

  • Chronopolitan (+300)
  • *
  • Posts: 349
    • View Profile
Another "interesting" theory
« Reply #35 on: February 04, 2006, 01:29:51 am »
Wow I regret saying the words "fully evolved" now...
By "fully evolved" I was refering to the fact that evolution had developed the current "final" humanoid, or homo sapiens.  I am not talking about basic mutations and stuff, but instead the entire genetic makeup of the species.

AuraTwilight

  • Errare Explorer (+1500)
  • *
  • Posts: 1524
    • View Profile
Another "interesting" theory
« Reply #36 on: February 04, 2006, 04:40:42 pm »
and you're STILL wrong. Evolution never stops. There is no "final" form in evolution except for becoming a God. As long as there's something higher than us on the evolutionary web, we will be forced to keep evolving, no matter how slowly we have to take it.

Radical_Dreamer

  • Entity
  • Zurvan Surfer (+2500)
  • *
  • Posts: 2778
    • View Profile
    • The Chrono Compendium
Another "interesting" theory
« Reply #37 on: February 04, 2006, 05:10:32 pm »
Quote from: AuraTwilight
and you're STILL wrong. Evolution never stops. There is no "final" form in evolution except for becoming a God. As long as there's something higher than us on the evolutionary web, we will be forced to keep evolving, no matter how slowly we have to take it.


And you are still wrong. Evolution does not stop as long as a species reproduces. Evolution is a process. No goals, just mechanisms.

ChronoMagus

  • Chronopolitan (+300)
  • *
  • Posts: 349
    • View Profile
Another "interesting" theory
« Reply #38 on: February 04, 2006, 05:19:05 pm »
Quote from: AuraTwilight
and you're STILL wrong. Evolution never stops. There is no "final" form in evolution except for becoming a God. As long as there's something higher than us on the evolutionary web, we will be forced to keep evolving, no matter how slowly we have to take it.

Why do you think I put "final" in quotes? I meant currently we are the final form.
 We are the most advanced form of the primate family up to this time.  In the future we very well maybe some primitive pathetic being, but relative to the mutations thus far, we are "final" because we are the most recent.
Final is probably a very poor word to describe it.

Tonjevic

  • Chronopolitan (+300)
  • *
  • Posts: 328
    • View Profile
Another "interesting" theory
« Reply #39 on: February 04, 2006, 06:35:01 pm »
The latest form in our evolutionary path, might fit.

Darth Mongoose

  • Porrean (+50)
  • *
  • Posts: 69
    • View Profile
    • http://darthmongoose.hyper-comix.com/home.html
Another "interesting" theory
« Reply #40 on: February 04, 2006, 10:44:55 pm »
I dunno if it's occured to some of you, but...

Evolution happens over huge time periods!

The longer a creature's lifespan, the slower evolution will take place. Turtles have massive lifespans and little need to change much, and as a result, Turtles have showed little visible evolution from prehistoric times. Germs, on the other hand, keep changing and mutating all the time (and are becoming immune to some of our medicines...).
Due to humans having a relatively low death rate, natural selection has less of an impact right now, but that isn't to say that evolution has simply stopped. For example, naturally blonde haired people may well soon be extinct. This is a very minor thing (no more blonde people) but it could be considered an evolutionary movement, the blonde hair gene vanishes, no more pale haired humans are born, all humans have darker hair. Blonde hair presents no actual advantage, and was probably a mutation to begin with, so it does make sense that it would eventually fade out.

ChronoMagus

  • Chronopolitan (+300)
  • *
  • Posts: 349
    • View Profile
Another "interesting" theory
« Reply #41 on: February 04, 2006, 11:00:24 pm »
Quote from: Darth Mongoose
I dunno if it's occured to some of you, but...

Evolution happens over huge time periods!

The longer a creature's lifespan, the slower evolution will take place. Turtles have massive lifespans and little need to change much, and as a result, Turtles have showed little visible evolution from prehistoric times. Germs, on the other hand, keep changing and mutating all the time (and are becoming immune to some of our medicines...).
Due to humans having a relatively low death rate, natural selection has less of an impact right now, but that isn't to say that evolution has simply stopped. For example, naturally blonde haired people may well soon be extinct. This is a very minor thing (no more blonde people) but it could be considered an evolutionary movement, the blonde hair gene vanishes, no more pale haired humans are born, all humans have darker hair. Blonde hair presents no actual advantage, and was probably a mutation to begin with, so it does make sense that it would eventually fade out.

Good point.
YAY NO BLONDE PEOPLE. j/k (I on the other hand am black haired).  But  the point is if we are defining small little mutations as "evolution," then really every single baby is differently evolved...

AuraTwilight

  • Errare Explorer (+1500)
  • *
  • Posts: 1524
    • View Profile
Another "interesting" theory
« Reply #42 on: February 05, 2006, 05:42:04 pm »
Well, it's not the mutation itself that's evolution. It's when the mutation is proven to be useful, passed on, and becomes a fundamental part of the genepool.

Radical_Dreamer

  • Entity
  • Zurvan Surfer (+2500)
  • *
  • Posts: 2778
    • View Profile
    • The Chrono Compendium
Another "interesting" theory
« Reply #43 on: February 05, 2006, 06:04:23 pm »
Quote from: Darth Mongoose
I dunno if it's occured to some of you, but...

Evolution happens over huge time periods!


Evolution happens generation to generation. The actual amount of time is irrelevant. It just usually takes many generations for a given mutation to spread through the population, or at least a significant portion.

Quote from: Darth Mongoose
The longer a creature's lifespan, the slower evolution will take place. Turtles have massive lifespans and little need to change much, and as a result, Turtles have showed little visible evolution from prehistoric times. Germs, on the other hand, keep changing and mutating all the time (and are becoming immune to some of our medicines...).


See above. This is a bit of an oversimplification, but you've got the right idea.

Quote from: Darth Mongoose
Due to humans having a relatively low death rate, natural selection has less of an impact right now, but that isn't to say that evolution has simply stopped. For example, naturally blonde haired people may well soon be extinct. This is a very minor thing (no more blonde people) but it could be considered an evolutionary movement, the blonde hair gene vanishes, no more pale haired humans are born, all humans have darker hair. Blonde hair presents no actual advantage, and was probably a mutation to begin with, so it does make sense that it would eventually fade out.


Blonde hair is a recessive trait. Even if the next generation of humans had no blondes, the generation after that could be ~15-25% blonde. Although I'm not really sure why you think that blonde hair is becoming less prevelant in humans. I've seen nothing to suggest any change in relative rates of hair color in recent times, or was this just an example?

I disagree with your last assertion. Every change to a living thing, since the first self-replicating strands of DNA, has been a mutation. That a trait results from a mutation does not mean that it logically follows that it must fade out of the genome in time. Hair at all was a result of a series of mutations, but there have been hair-growing animals for ~70 million years.

ChronoMagus

  • Chronopolitan (+300)
  • *
  • Posts: 349
    • View Profile
Another "interesting" theory
« Reply #44 on: February 05, 2006, 08:26:24 pm »
Quote from: Radical_Dreamer

I disagree with your last assertion. Every change to a living thing, since the first self-replicating strands of DNA, has been a mutation. That a trait results from a mutation does not mean that it logically follows that it must fade out of the genome in time. Hair at all was a result of a series of mutations, but there have been hair-growing animals for ~70 million years.

Humans have been losing hair...  we have no need for it.  Hair was created so we could survive incredible cold, but the ice age has been over for a good while now.  Humans have no use for the obscene amounts of hair that our homonid and greater ape cousins had.  Wisdom teeth is another trait that will eventually be taken out of the gene pool.  We have no use for those miserable teeth, while our primitive brethern needed them for eating raw meat.  Some of our organs are becoming useless, due to the fact they were designed to counter bacteria and toxins that are no longer a problem with our current food.