Author Topic: Some new theories about the Fall of Guardia / Rise of Porre  (Read 1942 times)

TimeTraveller

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Some new theories about the Fall of Guardia / Rise of Porre
« on: November 23, 2007, 03:19:38 pm »
Hi everyone!

Just this year I started playing Chrono Cross, then I've found this site, which I thought is very well made and useful! Thank you to the ones that helped making it this way!

Now, I've read many theories about the rise of Porre / fall of Guardia, but a few ideas occurred to me, that I've not seen posted anywhere else, so I will bring them to discussion.

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1- My first thought is about the power of the Porre Army. I was thinking that Serge actually fights some of the Porre soldiers in CC, so this can give us a look at the average power of the Porre soldiers. The ones that Serge had to fight were not very powerful and very easy to kill. In fact, some of them had to ask for (Serge as) Lynx's help because they were having trouble to capture Orlha (and she was alone)! So, I have to conclude that the average Porre soldier is not that powerful in 1020, hence they should be even weaker, or at least equal, in 1005, right? The only powerful soldiers from Porre that Serge has found were Norris, Grobyc and Guillot, but I understand that they were exceptions, so there wasn't a lot of them. Also, probably they didn't have anything like Grobyc and Guillot in 1005 yet, perhaps some initial experiments.
Thinking this way, I don't think that probably Porre army would be able to beat Crono, Marle and Lucca because of their great power. This does not discard the possibility that they were killed by any others means or even off-battle, but I don't see how Porre army could have won a fight with them.

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2- Now the second point is about what happened between 1005 and 1020.

2.1- If Crono and Marle were alive, I believe that the first thing they would do (together with Luca) would be to make a plan to enter through Porre's defenses right to its source of power and destroy it, as they had done previously through their journey. But obviously, this did not happen.
If they are alive and did not take this course of actions, I can only think that they should have a reason to consider better not risking it. For example, they could be ruling what was left of Guardia as king and queen and felt that abandoning their people to try a risky move would be to dangerous to them: if they would for any reason fail, or if Porre would strike another massive attack before they were back, the citizens of Guardia would be left alone and without defenses.
Another theory is that they could have had babies before 1005, and thought that they could not risk their lives leaving their children alone, so they decided to stay behind, taking care of them at least until the time they reach their maturity.
Under this theory, it is possible that after some time they finish building a plan, or wait until whatever was stopping them to end (their children grow, for example), and in the soon future they attack Porre and raise Guardia to the place it was before.

2.2- If Crono and Marle actually die in 1005, we have to consider that Lucca stayed alive until 1015. I cannot imagine how would Lucca live 10 years knowing that their friends were death and do nothing about it! Specially because she had already used their time travelling abilities to save Crono once. And if the cause of Marle and Crono's death was really something outside the normal flow of time, Lucca would surely have discovered this and would try to fix everything in the first place, maybe asking for help from their other friends through time.
I think that maybe she was trying to do something to fix things, but she did not have the Epoch for some reason and could not use any gate, and that is why she was trying to build a time egg. If she succeeded, she would soon use the time egg to fix things and save Crono and Marle, but them Lynx came and killed her before she was able to do anything but an incomplete time egg.

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3- But if Crono and Marle are dead as Chrono Cross is going on, what happens after it is finished? We know something about what happens in the Chrono Cross timelines, but it is possible that the activation of the Chrono Cross by Serge has created a new timeline. If we consider the time rewind theory to the unification of the dimensions (which, personally, I think it is what would really happen), them time would flow normally from 1006 on, without any dimension splitting. If this really happens, and assuming that Crono and Marle did really die in 1005, them:

3.1- As there is no Lynx in the unified timeline, no one attacks Lucca in 1015, so she is alive and continues her research on time eggs. Eventually, she is able to build a complete time egg, so she uses it to come back to 1005 or sometime earlier, fixes whatever happened that was "outside normal flow of time", and saves Crono and Marle. Possibly with the help of Schala/Kid (since we do not really know what happened to them) or someone else (she could ask for Ayla/Frog/Robo's help also). Wouldn't this be possible? Wouldn't this possibly be what Lucca would do? I doubt she would just continue her life knowing that their friends are death and just accept it.

3.2- Another possibility: Belthasar knows everything that happened through the time until 2400AD, right? If really there was something outside the normal flow of time that helped the destruction of Guardia, Belthasar would have the possibility to fix it. Maybe he didn't do anything in the first place, because his first priority was Project Kid and destroying the Time Devourer, and he did need the support of the future Central Regime built by the evolution of the Porre Kingdom, to build Chronopolis. But after the Time Devourer is destroyed, Belthasar could have used his Neo Epoch to start his next project: saving Crono, Marle and Guardia from the events in time that have happened and caused their falling, possibly counting with the help of Lucca to accomplish this (or manipulating her and others to make his new project work, as appears to be his way to fix things).

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Well, what do you think? Does any of these ideas seem really possible?  :)

justin3009

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Re: Some new theories about the Fall of Guardia / Rise of Porre
« Reply #1 on: November 26, 2007, 03:29:44 pm »
You actually make a good point against the Porre soldiers there...I never really cared to think of that.  I can't really add more but I bet you someone shortly is going to make some huge post explaining why none of this can happen >_>..

Radox Redux

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Re: Some new theories about the Fall of Guardia / Rise of Porre
« Reply #2 on: December 02, 2007, 07:06:35 pm »
The confusion about Porre was never really about whether or not they could beat Crono, Lucca or Marle, it was more the fact that it was such a drastic change between Cross and Trigger.

I believe the most accepted reason is that Porre somehow intergrated Elements into their army during the colonisation of El Nido since 920 AD.

As for Belthesar... why would he bother to save either Chrono, Marle or Lucca. It's likely he contacted Lucca at some point in 1005 or earlier, but there's no reason why he would bother, especially since the ideal timeline would effectively save them anyway. Plus how could Belthasar save them anyway? He's weaker than them for sure, and I doubt either Chrono, Marle or Lucca would want to flee from Guardia.

You got some nice logical reasons though, but unlikely compared to more 'solid' explainations.

TimeTraveller

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Re: Some new theories about the Fall of Guardia / Rise of Porre
« Reply #3 on: December 03, 2007, 07:25:36 am »
The confusion about Porre was never really about whether or not they could beat Crono, Lucca or Marle, it was more the fact that it was such a drastic change between Cross and Trigger.

I believe the most accepted reason is that Porre somehow intergrated Elements into their army during the colonisation of El Nido since 920 AD.

Yes, you're right! But I still think there is some trouble there. If the Elements were the reason for Porre's success, it means this happened only in the timeline modified after Chronopolis arrival. This implies that its effort to avoid any changes in time that would put its existence in risk would have failed completely.

As for Belthesar... why would he bother to save either Chrono, Marle or Lucca. It's likely he contacted Lucca at some point in 1005 or earlier, but there's no reason why he would bother, especially since the ideal timeline would effectively save them anyway. Plus how could Belthasar save them anyway? He's weaker than them for sure, and I doubt either Chrono, Marle or Lucca would want to flee from Guardia.

You got some nice logical reasons though, but unlikely compared to more 'solid' explainations.

Ok, I understand that he probably had no great reason to save them. But it seems to me they have developed some kind of friendship after all the events in CT, so that could be one reason. As for how could he save them, I believe his strength is his intelligence. After doing all the planning of Project Kid, making a "small project" to save them would be easy. Since the reason of their fall was something outside the normal flow of time, maybe travelling a few years in the past (say, 1002 A.D.) and advicing them about what would happen could be enough.

Anyway, I agree that this "Belthasar saving them" theory if really weak. But I think my "Lucca saving them" theory is more strong. If Lucca just saw her friends die in 1005 A.D., but she survived, she would do anything she could to save them. I didn't see anything about this point anywhere. What was Lucca doing between 1005 and 1015 A.D.? And after the events in Cross, I believe time is changed so she does not die in 1015 A.D., so what is she doing after that?

Thanks for your reply!

Radox Redux

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Re: Some new theories about the Fall of Guardia / Rise of Porre
« Reply #4 on: December 03, 2007, 11:28:56 am »
Who knows? It makes you wonder why they couldn't just use the Epoch to stop the war happening altogether. Lucca hints that the Epoch would be disassembled during the CT ending, so that's probably why.

Quote
Ok, I understand that he probably had no great reason to save them. But it seems to me they have developed some kind of friendship after all the events in CT, so that could be one reason.

The only meeting you have with Belthasar in CT is completely optional, and in that meeting not only is he partially insane, but it's also the 'alternate future' Belthasar. The Belthasar in CC has probably never even met the CT crew. (Though he knows of their actions through FATE.)
« Last Edit: December 03, 2007, 11:32:29 am by Radox Redux »

Trixter

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Re: Some new theories about the Fall of Guardia / Rise of Porre
« Reply #5 on: January 13, 2008, 01:36:21 am »

As for Belthesar... why would he bother to save either Chrono, Marle or Lucca. It's likely he contacted Lucca at some point in 1005 or earlier, but there's no reason why he would bother, especially since the ideal timeline would effectively save them anyway. Plus how could Belthasar save them anyway? He's weaker than them for sure, and I doubt either Chrono, Marle or Lucca would want to flee from Guardia.



You're kind of forgetting an important line from Chrono Cross:

"That hidden circuit was based on the initial Ashtear model circuit board, with extra logic added
by another scientist.  Of course I don't believe it was Lucca alone that devised this plan. I"m sure the first curator of this research center, a man named Belthasar, had a hand in it, too."

So since Belthasar needed Lucca's genius he would have had a lot of reason for wanting her around.

In my own personal opinion I think the "outside the flow of time" is too vague to assume that Porre got help from elements.  Porre had a very small population and therefore even with elements they wouldn't have enough manpower.  Perhaps that could be one of many factors, but it can't be the sole factor.  The "outside the flow of time" quote probably refers to something else that hasn't bee explained yet obviously.

I also think that the Guardia/Porre battle must have lasted at least a few years so it would have started in 1001 or 1002 probably.  My reasoning is because Lucca had an orphanage.  An ongoing war would leave some parentless children.  I think what happened was Crono and friends did something near the end of their journey that triggered a series of events leading to the rise of Porre.  After defeating Lavos the group immediately celebrates at the moonlight parade and then Lucca talks about dismantling the epoch, or it could have been destroyed if you flew into Lavos.  Either way the epoch is gone.  Since they started to party it up right after defeating Lavos they probably didn't even notice anything about Porre being different, and once they did notice the epoch was already gone.  Therefore Lucca decided to work on another Time Egg like the one Gasper had made.

ZeaLitY

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Re: Some new theories about the Fall of Guardia / Rise of Porre
« Reply #6 on: January 13, 2008, 03:01:47 am »
I think we can definitely flesh out that second point, as it does have some background in Radical Dreamers. In that continuity, Lucca gave Kid the Time Egg and told her to find the Frozen Flame to lay it on the grave of a friend. Lynx, of course, declares that uniting two such objects allows control over time.

In Chrono Cross, that subplot is totally absent, but Lucca still makes an incomplete Time Egg for Kid. Lucca still had to know ahead of time that she was doomed in order to give the egg to Kid for safekeeping, but she could have done this in either continuity in the initial stages of the attack. Still, this means Lucca might have planned on dying, which is hard to believe.

Anyway, in Radical Dreamers, it can definitely be inferred that Lucca might have been planning for the resurrection of the implied dead friend (popularly thought to be Crono). I wouldn't count on this as canon, but we could still present it as one possibility in the Fates of the Chrono Trigger Team article, especially since the ending of Chrono Cross is so vague. Objections?

Blackcaped_imp

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Re: Some new theories about the Fall of Guardia / Rise of Porre
« Reply #7 on: January 13, 2008, 01:40:38 pm »
Just one question. Chrono Triggers ending, Lucca says she'll dismantle the epoch, and by this mean, no more Epoch. Do you guys think that Lucca, being the scientist she is, a girl that tried to make a time egg by herself, wouldn't make any documentation of specific steps or manuals to build the epoch again, even for any causality made in the future?
I think she would say "Oh my god, i have an epoch to destroy, i will look what it has, how it works and all that stuff, I'm a scientist, after all". Stupid question and all, but i had to think about it that way.

About the time egg Lucca gave to Kid, maybe she knew, as she said to Kid in her letter handed down by Luccia in some part of the game, that she could die in some point, so she gave Kid "one" incomplete Time Egg, as a backup plan, or a mission. I think that the Time Egg can be made several times unless it is made of a rare material (maybe dreamstone or lavos body, maybe the frozen flame). Maybe Lucca kept another Time Egg (maybe several ones, uncompleted), or several devices that could react with the already made Time Egg, or with the Frozen Flame, allowing to make a time phenomena in which a plan could be unveiled. 

(Sorry for the multiple things I could have said and that do not concordate with the previous theories stated as truth in the Compendium, and I'm sorry for the stupid theory as well)

Chrono'99

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Re: Some new theories about the Fall of Guardia / Rise of Porre
« Reply #8 on: January 17, 2008, 06:20:55 am »
Wait, I don't think Lucca created her Time Egg specifically for Kid. The Lucca ghost doesn't seem to remember giving it to Kid according to this quote.

Quote
[Lucca]
   That's the amulet Kid
   always had so dear to her
   heart!
   If you look carefully you'll
   see that the design on the
   cloth bag is the ancient
   kingdom's royal crest.
   Inside the bag is a
   wooden pendant.
   I assume my little sister
   had it with her, or picked
   it up later. on the night
   my house was razed.
   I bet she carefully kept
   it with her, always...
   I'm sure it has a lot of
   memories attatched to it!

Of course, the whole topic is blurry because of what I call the "how-many-pendants-are-there" and "wooden pendant? WTF" mysteries. In any case, the Ultimania Guide doesn't seem to mention Lucca giving a Time Egg to Kid either, although she did create it:

Quote
................................................................
  Kid's Treasure
................................................................

"Hey!? It's the..." "...the Time Egg?" – Masa, Mune

When you hold to Mastermune, the 3 spirits, Masa, Mune, Doreen will identify
that existence of the "incomplete time egg." The one that they refer to in
their conversation is the Astral Amulet. Actually inside that [Amulet], an
experimental time egg made by Lucca has been hidden inside. This "Time Egg"
of course, is a different thing from the Key Item with the same name.

Lucca might have been working on Time Egg(s) only as a scientific hobby or something, and after Lynx's raid, Kid might have picked up an (or the unique) incomplete Time Egg lying in the ruins of the orphanage.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2008, 06:24:26 am by Chrono'99 »