Rise Of Porre

[ZeaLitY]

I feel that I've failed in writing the Rise of Porre article. I have too much fear that the article will be incomprehensible to wandering fans who happen upon the site; the Keystone T-1 and original timeline stuff wasn't explained in detail, bubblebobby2000's theories on time weren't considered, and in addition, the Axioms & Corollaries article doesn't exist yet, which would have given a basis to some of the temporal stuff.

I'm going to go back through and separate sections with specific headings, such as

Porre-Masamune

and here follows the content. I'm also going to introduce blocks of commentary, as much of that stuff looks like it was taken out of context.

[ZeaLitY]

Fall of Guardia

We need to clear up some matters regarding this, mainly

Why didn't Crono simply defeat the Porrean army?

Masato Kato's words are cryptic:

4. Throughout the game, whenever characters from Chrono Trigger are mentioned, they are talked about as if they are dead. I can understand this with Lucca. However, shouldn't Crono and Marle still be alive? This game takes place twenty years after the plot action of Chrono Trigger, correct? Then, why are the Chrono Trigger characters talked about as if they are dead? Question From: The Mad Druid spiralwalker@hotmail.com

Masato Kato: This is another difficult question. (laughs) The fate of Crono and Marle is not thoroughly explained in Chrono Cross, but taking into consideration the fall of the Kingdom of Guardia and the rise of Porre's militarism on the main continent, there is a good chance the two friends may have been involved in some kind of incident.

Three theoriest exist so far.

Crono-Ethics Theory
?

Crono very sparingly killed humans throughout Chrono Trigger (debatable in itself, depending on how you choose to view the race of the Zealian stick-guards), and probably objected to slaughtering the thousands of people composing the Porre army.

Refutation

GrayLensman, if you can find it, I believe you wrote a paragraph on Gamefaqs detailing the extent of Crono's slaughtering sentient peoples.

Economic-Takeover Theory
?

This theory holds more clout in Keystone T-2. It proposes that Porre undertook an economic takeover of Guardia -- more specifically, Truce -- and was able to wield such power that a coup of the government wasn't too difficult. The catcher here is that it turned the people against the current rulers, Guardia, meaning that Crono would have to face his own towns people. Thus, he would not have been able to do such, and would have stepped down from power willingly.

Crono-Miguel Theory Marle Adjunct
Varaen

This theory would hold that Crono was simply bade to leave Guardia by Marle, who gave their only daughter to him for safekeeping. It works under the Crono-Miguel Theory, found here: http://www.chronocompendium.com/viewtopic.php?t=21

~

GrayLensman commented on Gamefaqs that the pure mystery surrounding this event leaves little to work on. However, if you can lend some commentary or theories of your own, please do so.

[Akuma]

Well look, most likely El Nido and Chronopolis have nothing to do with Porre's rise of power, as Chronopolis is the result of a powerful nation Porre. Therefore it would be an impossible paradox if Porre's power came from Chronopolis.

Anyways, either The Frozen Flame, The Masamune, or a powerful person appeared to make Porre strong. Why don't we examine what happened to the Masamune after 600 A.D. Glenn probably put it back in the Denadoro Mountains which are inaccessible in 1000 A.D.

Well we know The Mayor of Porre was into treasures (the sun stone), so maybe when Dalton appeared he forced him to find it. And the guy at the right does look like Dalton in Life Skips a Beat.

Also, Porre soldiers have a similar stance to what Thrashers did. And I believe there was "absolutely" no military in Porre before either Dalton, the frozen flame, or the masamune appeared. I mean, tell me "where" are they? Where is this military in CT? Well I'll tell you where in Guardia Castle that's where. In 600 A.D. soldiers from Choras, Porre, Dorino and Truce all joined the Guardian army.

As for the Porrean Beret, whatever it meant, it sure didn't mean Porre had a military, I'm sure the creators of CT didn't have CC in mind when they made it. It was probably just a beret made in Porre. Also notice Porre has guns in CC. The only people who can make guns are Lucca and Taban. Perhaps Dalton had Taban kidnapped?

Anyways, a few hundred well trained men, Dalton with the Masamune, and possibly the Frozen Flame would be enough to take down Guardia and Crono.

Or maybe, just maybe, the "shadow" at the right of Life Skips a beat is Crono himself. Crono's no weakling, but people like Garai and Dario were killed by the masamune and they were tough. Hmmm, I still don't really think Dalton could've killed Crono, perhaps if Dalton never did appear in 1000 A.D. and simply remains "unknown" but in 12,000 B.C on some hidden island with Queen Zeal.

Hmm, let's take all the theories I just stated but replace "Dalton" with "Crono". Let's say after the Masamune became evil, Crono probably didn't know this, and the king of guardia asks him to find the Masamune to keep for safe keeping (they already have the rainbow shell).

Crono probably searches through Denadoro mountains pulls the Masamune out which Glenn put there 400 some years earlier. Crono goes crazy, and heads to Porre and Porre for some reason (taxes?) wants Guardia dead also, so Crono and these troops march to Guardia and destroy it. I mean, you expect Crono to have the same hairstyle for 5 years? Perhaps the guy on the right is him. But perhaps the finding of the masamune and the downfall of Porre took place some months or years apart.

It says "dissappearance" of the masamune. Well we don't know when it appeared in that era. Or how for that matter. Anyways, Crono possibly had kids with Marle before he went insane with the sword.

This theory could possibly take place in the El Nido/Chronopolis timeline, but we can't say how much El Nido really did effect the Zenan mainland.

Anyways, hope you enjoyed my theories. But I do hope the next Chrono game explains it. I call this the Porre-Crono theory.

P.S. In the Lucca letter she makes absolutely no mention at all of Porre taking down Guardia or even Porre for that matter. So Lucca found Kid in 1004 A.D. She probably wrote the letter in 1004 A.D. also. Obviously it was written sort of like a will. Anyways, she probably lived with Kid until like what? 1013 A.D. around that. There's nothing implying "when" that letter was written, all we know is sometime after 1004 A.D.

[Symmetry]

Regarding Crono slaughtering sentient peoples -

From playing CT, we really don't get the impression that Crono is a bloodythirsty person. In fact, we see quite the opposite. Much like a solider in a war - if you believe your ends are justified (and what greater ends than saving the planet?), then having to kill those who oppose your ends violently isn't a problem - its simply the way the world works.

Had Crono wanted to, he could have killed the Mayor of Porre and stole the recharged Sun Stone - but he doesn't. He hardly sounds bloodthirsty and out for his own ends to me.

I agree that there isn't much to work on here. Let's cross our fingers and hope this is something a future title addresses.

[Akuma]

Have you forgotten the power of the Masamune to corrupt man?

[Chrono'99]

I think what Symmetry means is that the Masamune became evil because of something during the Fall of Guardia, not that it corrupted Crono before it and then caused that fall.

[Akuma]

WTF? It says in the game the reason it became evil is masa and mune going to sleep for 400 years.

But that doesn't explain why it isn't evil in 600 A.D. Almost 10,000 years of collecting nothing but rust. But remember it isn't useful in 600 A.D. and defeating Masa and Mune probably awoke them. Either that or the dreamstone thing.

[Faulce]

WTF? It says in the game the reason it became evil is masa and mune going to sleep for 400 years.

But that doesn't explain why it isn't evil in 600 A.D. Almost 10,000 years of collecting nothing but rust. But remember it isn't useful in 600 A.D. and defeating Masa and Mune probably awoke them. Either that or the dreamstone thing.

Well after defeating Lavos, Frog returned to 600 A.D. with the Masamune.  He probably returned it to Denadoro mts. or something and then Masa and Mune, feeling that their duties were finished went to sleep.  Then someone found it a few hundred years later and because the pair was asleep, the new bearer never had to fight to acquire ownership of the blade, meaning he could do whatever the heck he wanted to do with it.  It probably became evil because of the amount of Lavos's energy that was stored in the dreamstone as someone said earlier. So maybe it was 'evil' in 600 A.D. but no one found it until much later. Humans are so easily corrupted...

[Symmetry]

Seems to me that the Masamune wouldn't have corrupted Crono unless someone sinister had used it first. (If my understanding of the Masamune's fall is correct or somewhere close.)

My point was that barring something very strange, it seems out of place for Crono to commit mass murder.

[Radical_Dreamer]

My belief is that the sword had contained in it the corrupting power of Lavos from the moment it was plunged into the Mammon Machine, but that Masa and Mune were a more dominant consciousness while they were awake. Once they were alseep, the energy of Lavos became the dominant energy, and corrupted those who used the sword.

[Beever]

First of all, sorry for bringing a kinda-old post up, but I have a theory on this that isn't really likely, but I'd like to share it anyways.

As far as the scene at the end of PSX CT--I think the person on the right is Magus.  Keep in mind I formulated this from appearances alone.  Magus has the long hair and the cape, for one.  Also, when you get to the part where you see a hand grab the Masamune's hilt, it (the hand) has a tone similar to what Magus' may be (of course, this could be refuted by the fact that Magus wore brown gloves--he could have had a wardrobe change, though).

The hand on the Masamune's hilt obviously doesn't belong to Dalton, barring any radical changes (Dalton had a tan--the hand was a strange, pale color), and it wasn't Lynx's either, for obvious reasons (no fur--though the figure being Lynx has already been refuted in this post from another angle).

Now, like I said, I based this off of the figure's appearance alone.  But, the figure being Magus would satisfy those disappointed that Magus was ultimately excluded from CC.  Perhaps Magus was helping Belthasar set the events of CC in motion with the fall of Guardia?

I'm sure there are many holes in this theory, so shoot away.

[YbrikMetaknight]

Yeah...I really don't think it's Magus...but I don't feel like getting into why right now.  Maybe Zeality has that old OCR thread archived where Ye Grande Olde Idiot suggested the same thing (only he did it just to fuck with us, he claimed to not actually believe what he was saying) and we refuted it, and he can share.  I'm tired, I'll refute it better tomorrow or something like that.

[Beever]

Yeah...I really don't think it's Magus...but I don't feel like getting into why right now.  Maybe Zeality has that old OCR thread archived where Ye Grande Olde Idiot suggested the same thing (only he did it just to fuck with us, he claimed to not actually believe what he was saying) and we refuted it, and he can share.  I'm tired, I'll refute it better tomorrow or something like that.

I'm not saying this is a theory I firmly believe in, I'm just throwing it out there, but not to mess with anyone.  If Dalton can be thrown around (which is pretty laughable, I mean sure he tries to take over the people left after Zeal's fall, but they were just normal, unarmed humans, and here he is with an aircraft and magic, obvious advantages--I can't see him charging into battle against thousands of well-armed soldiers)  as the person's identity, why can't Magus be suggested also?

[Faulce]

First of all, sorry for bringing a kinda-old post up, but I have a theory on this that isn't really likely, but I'd like to share it anyways.

As far as the scene at the end of PSX CT--I think the person on the right is Magus.  Keep in mind I formulated this from appearances alone.  Magus has the long hair and the cape, for one.  Also, when you get to the part where you see a hand grab the Masamune's hilt, it (the hand) has a tone similar to what Magus' may be (of course, this could be refuted by the fact that Magus wore brown gloves--he could have had a wardrobe change, though).

The hand on the Masamune's hilt obviously doesn't belong to Dalton, barring any radical changes (Dalton had a tan--the hand was a strange, pale color), and it wasn't Lynx's either, for obvious reasons (no fur--though the figure being Lynx has already been refuted in this post from another angle).

Now, like I said, I based this off of the figure's appearance alone.  But, the figure being Magus would satisfy those disappointed that Magus was ultimately excluded from CC.  Perhaps Magus was helping Belthasar set the events of CC in motion with the fall of Guardia?

I'm sure there are many holes in this theory, so shoot away.

I also thought it was Magus for awhile. The part about him wanting to help Belthasar makes sense because all Magus cares about is finding Schala. Belthasar could have said "I've found Schala,but..." However, the Porre flag is shown in the PSX sequence, Magus would use magic to kill all of those people, he couldnt really touch or get near the Masamune -it absorbed his power -as someone said on some other post somewhere.  I swear if Square had just put a helmet on that soldier, none of this would be a problem, damn them!  And guys, its NOT Dalton, he did NOT travel in time. Think about it, if Dalton was really that all powerful, why the Time Egg??? Think of that portal the way you think of the gate-looking portal that leads to the ocean palace.  Its for transportation, not time travel. He simply ended up going wherever the golems resided, and I don't think it was a friendly place.

[ZeaLitY]

The problem with Magus is motivation; he had made peace with Frog, and any ill-sentiments toward humans were just a facade for the Mystics. Unless Guardia itself held the key to releasing Schala, he would have no clear reason in destroying it; additionally, if it were him, he apparently didn't keep the Masamune.

There is one frame in that cutscene in which the blood spurting forth from the Guardia knight joins the raised hand of the assailant and makes it look like the shadow of a scythe. If you ever see that, know that the assailant uses a sword, and the scythe's blade is really blood ;\