Author Topic: Beyond Time - The End of Time [FINISHED]  (Read 1930 times)

Leebot

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Beyond Time - The End of Time [FINISHED]
« on: November 02, 2004, 11:56:14 am »
Author's note: Finally! The last section, The End of Time, is up! You know I had to put it off 'til last  :wink:. Now, all that's left is proofreading, homogenization, and another chance for commentary. Once that's done, I'll post the intro in the Submissions thread, and assuming it's accepted, we can put it in the encyclopedia. My recommendation would be to put the introduction on one page and link it to each section and the appendices.

I. The End of Time

Mechanics:
Time-Error (When a traveler enters the End of Time, the Time-Error of the gate or vehicle that brought them there determines the time* at which they arrive. When they leave, the time* determines the appropriate Time-Error of their destination gate.)

Nature: As Gaspar explains, the End of Time is at the space-time coordinates of least resistance. It contains light pillars connecting to all gates, and a bucket that connects to a gate at the Day of the Lavos. The gothic architecture gives the place a solemn feeling.

Analysis: The nature of the end of our universe depends primarily on the curvature of its space.

If the curvature of the universe is positive, the gravity of the bodies in the universe will eventually cause them to pull everything back together in a "Big Crunch" which would collapse the entirety of the universe into a singularity (a black hole).

If the curvature of the universe is negative, bodies will keep accelerating away from each other, and the ever-increasing force of entropy will take over, resulting in a "heat-death" of the universe, followed by a gradual cooling as it fades away, leaving only black holes behind.

If the curvature of the universe is flat, the universe will approach an equilibrium size as time approaches infinity. As this approaches, it is most likely that all the mass in the universe will fall into the black holes scattered throughout.

Einstein originally predicted that the universe was positively curved, but recent measurements have shown that this is unlikely. One recent measurement showed that the universe is extremely close to being flat, within a small margin of error. Other recent observations have shown distance stellar phenomena accelerating away from us, which is consistent with negative curvature.

The one notable constant in all these endings is the presence of singularities (black holes). In a singularity, all known physics breaks down, as it is incapable of handling a 0-dimensional universe. If Chrono Trigger's End of Time exists in a singularity, we may be lead to believe that it is a place consisting of pure thought, being QC-like. This is supported by the observation that when Gaspar first arrives, it is empty, but the party reaches an End of Time that apparently consists of a few rooms with gothic-style architecture.

Quote from: Leebot
From a quasi-philosophical standpoint, one can look at them as more of "states of existence" than physical places. As such, only the spirit would truly exist there. The body, air, and structure are all created to provide a metaphorical structure to this space to provide travelers an image they could comprehend (like how the Q Continuum is shown in Star Trek: Voyager).

Quote from: Epsilon
The problem with that is (going by the idea that the minds of characters "create" the EoT/BoT using things they're familiar with..) is that there is no other area in CT that looks like the EoT (I havent replayed CC inawhile, so I'm not sure abot that...), so how could it be made out of things they are familiar with?

Quote from: Leebot
If we accept my theory as true, we can take it a bit further. We don't know that all characters see the same thing, or even that we see the same thing as the characters. If not, the End of Time would be a representation that is supposed to evoke a certain image for the players (I get the impression of a 50's (or so) metropolis at night, evoking a sense of loneliness and isolation).

If all who are there see the same thing, then it's likely that Gaspar created that image. It's possible he saw something like that peering through a time-portal, or heard it described from some other traveler.

The only other place in either game that resembles the End of Time is (not surprisingly), the Bend of Time from CC.


Residents:

Gaspar - Guru of Time from the Kingdom of Zeal. In the Ocean Palace disaster, he was caught in a gate and sent to the End of Time, where he watches over the timeline.

Name Origin: Gaspar was the name of one of the three wisemen who brought gifts to the baby Christ is Christian lore.

Spekkio - A mysterious creature who teaches the party magic. His appearance corresponds to the power level of those who see him, if they're weak, he appears weak. If they're strong, he appears strong. His forms are (in order of increasing power):

Croaker
Kilwala
Blue Goblin
Red Omnicrone
Masa & Mune (combined form)
Red Nu

Name Origin: Spekkio is derived from the Latin "Specchio," which means "Mirror."

Analysis: There are many theories regarding the true nature of Spekkio. They include:

1) Spekkio is a Nu.

Quote from: Faulce
He takes the form of a redish-pinkish Nu as his final form.  And has attacks such as Luminaire and Dark Matter.  Why a Nu???

Quote from: Faulce
Well, Spekkio says, "If you're strong, I look strong.  If you're weak, I look weak."  Which implies that the Nu must be strong...  However, he also says right after that "You are strong of will, thats why the old one let you through." So not all people who accidentally entered the EoT saw Spekkio.  In fact, we don't see anyone else in the game outside of 12000 B.C. who can use magic as far as I can remember.  And perhaps the "strong of will" statement refers to how the Nu may work for the planet and diligently watch the workings of mankind to make sure things are going in such a way as to eventually work out for the Entity's best interests.
I don't know if he wants Lavos dead or not, he never seems to acknowledge his existence.

Quote from: Daggart
The problem with Spekkio being a Nu to me has always been that he acts nothing like the other Nu.

Quote from: Faulce
Thats true, he does act nothing like the other Nu.
(1) He has a name. (2) He fights using more than a headbutt.  (3) He can shapeshift. (4) He's red. (5) He has way more HP. [His final form has 20,000, I think.  The normal Nu has 1234HP].  (6) His personality is more developed than the other Nu we see.


2) Spekkio is a force of nature, or the embodiment of magic itself.

Quote from: V_Translanka
Plus, he has almost all the strongest magic attacks (Luminaire, Flare, Dark Matter), Hallation, & Salt (although some times he uses Salt on a party member). I think his having magical ability far outclasses him from being a lowly Nu. Nu only have two attacks really; Headbutt (1HP) & Headbutt (all but 1HP). Spekkio, along with not having either ability, has a hoard of magical ability. Plus, he somehow manages to avoid all physical attacks.

Only magic harms him and he has lots of magic himself. So, I believe Spekkio to be some kind of magical entity (not to be confused with the actual Entity). His power is simply a reflection of the power the party may have at any given time. If not just a reflection, then an enhancement of some kind. I've heard that spekkio means "mirror" in some other language...Although I might have heard that was debunked too...Whatever, it fits either way.

Quote from: XchrononetX
Perhaps Spekkio represents the very balance in the elements, the force that the people of Zeal forgot after finding Lavos as a potential for of energy. After all, it seems that he has all the most powerful representations of the Magic elements in his array of attacks, and it would only seem fit that he would be the pure representation of magic itself. This would make sense in that physical attacks cannot harm him, as magic is a force beyond a fist, so to speak. Magic can only harm magic... Yep, I think that's it. Spekkio is "Magic", or at least that's what I think.

Quote from: Faulce
I think that is a possibility. Even though 'magic' did not originally exist, the four elements (Lightning, Fire, Water, and Shadow) did exist and their balance was important. Maybe that is what the Nu are for: to preserve the balance of the elements (hence why there are so many of them in 12,000B.C. and almost none in any other era (and only one when magic ceases to be used in 12,000B.C.!!!)).

Quote from: 3Fangs 3Petals 3Feathers
It is my personal beleif that Spekkio is the Anti-Lavos.  As Lavos was created (and to some beleif, magic was created) the 'balance of power' created Spekkio.  As when Spekkio leaves in the ending of the return to EoT, I beleive that as Lavos is 'defeated' (temporarily at least), Spekkio is called back to wherever they both came from, and balance is given back to the world.

Quote from: Faulce
Its all starting to make sense now. I'm starting to think though that Spekkio was created to balance the elements after Lavos fell and during the height of Zealian magic use. The Nu were simply not enough (in terms of my new idea for their purpose) to keep the balance physically, so a true and complete magical balance had to be created to fulfill the 'hole' in the balance. (I really hope I'm not way off on this.)


3) Spekkio is an alien being, possibly like Lavos.

Quote from: Epsilon
That gave me an idea for a theory... What if Spekkio is another member of Lavos' race who achieved "perfect evolution," and for whatever reason decided to go to the End of Time (Or it existed, gathering DNA up until the End of Time...)?


4) Spekkio is a creation of Gaspar.

Quote from: V_Translanka
I assume that even when the so-called "Enlightened" ones were in Zeal, they did not automatically know Magic. For one, it's said how Schala and Janus seem to have their Magics (or lack of Magics) tested just to see if they have any ability. It makes sense that someone would teach them, if not exactly, then somewhat like how Spekkio teaches Crono & Co.

I immediately thought: The Gurus! But I also thought: Which of them would teach Magic? Did any of them even seem to know any Magic? Belthasar seems like he'd be too busy with the Epoch and the like... Melchior with his weapons... So, then, Gasper? Was there a Zealian council? Perhaps Dalton (he was a Magic user and even a Summoner)? Probably not... Or maybe it was just some of the scientists of Kajar or something? Maybe Q. Zeal herself taught Schala?

Quote from: Leebot
I just thought of something: What if Spekkio is an extension or creation of Gaspar? If so, it stands to reason that Gaspar could be able to teach magic to the people of Zeal.

Quote from: Leebot
Here's a wierd theory: Gaspar created Spekkio to appear in forms that each appeared more powerful than the previous one, but (for some reason) he wanted it to look like a Nu to him, so he made its most powerful form look like a Nu. He would see the most powerful form, as in order to create something with a certain level of magic, he would have to possess at least that level of magic himself (at least, in theory).

Quote from: Chrono'99
I've just thought about something. Masa and Mune claim to be Melchior's dream embodied, and Belthasar put his mind into his Nu, who is sleeping (either physically or "outside the flow of time", after you turn him off). Apparently, two of the Gurus are linked to some kind of avatars who have something to do with dreams.

Now what about Gaspar? There was nothing in the End of Time when he came, but eventually a ground and Spekkio appeared, while Gaspar is sleeping. Perhaps Spekkio is Gaspar's "dream avatar"? That God of War seems quite eccentric and out of place, so perhaps he is just a fancy dream Gaspar is having?

ZeaLitY

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Beyond Time - The End of Time [FINISHED]
« Reply #1 on: November 02, 2004, 03:34:46 pm »
Some support for his being a Nu is the fact that Belthasar had Nu assistants; this is effective only to a small degree, since Melchior, the other Guru, is never seen with such a helper.

Leebot

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Beyond Time - The End of Time [FINISHED]
« Reply #2 on: November 02, 2004, 03:57:14 pm »
True, but Belthasar's Nu was definitely a robot (unless you're referring to something in Zeal, but I don't remember any Nu helping out there), which makes it quite possible that it was one of his creations (given his technical prowess and the technology of the time, this is no stretch). This actually lends credence to the theory that Spekkio might have been a creation of Gaspar's.

Here's a wierd theory: Gaspar created Spekkio to appear in forms that each appeared more powerful than the previous one, but (for some reason) he wanted it to look like a Nu to him, so he made its most powerful form look like a Nu. He would see the most powerful form, as in order to create something with a certain level of magic, he would have to possess at least that level of magic himself (at least, in theory).

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Beyond Time - The End of Time [FINISHED]
« Reply #3 on: November 02, 2004, 09:58:30 pm »
I don't think Belthasar's Nu necessarilly has to be a robot. It could also be a kind of genetic tamporing that allowed him to insert his mind into that of the Nu. Perhaps all Nu are genetically engineered beings.

Leebot

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Beyond Time - The End of Time [FINISHED]
« Reply #4 on: November 02, 2004, 10:59:49 pm »
I don't know of any creatures that have an "Off" switch. And if they could engineer it like that, why can't they keep them from stealing tabs and needing their backs scratched?

V_Translanka

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Beyond Time - The End of Time [FINISHED]
« Reply #5 on: November 02, 2004, 11:36:21 pm »
Those both seem like emotional traits...Perhaps they cannot stop that with genetic engineering...And perhaps an 'off switch' was added or perhaps it was only added to Belthasar's Nu...

Leebot

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Beyond Time - The End of Time [FINISHED]
« Reply #6 on: November 03, 2004, 12:23:37 am »
One of the key differences being biological and technological organisms is that technological organisms can be shut down and restarted with little to no loss of function, but this is not the case for biological organisms. If you shut down a biological organism, it dies. If Zeal had found a way to get around this, they would have been able to get around death soon afterwards.

Besides that, the level of technology and knowledge needed to genetically engineer a complex creature like that is significantly greater than the technology and knowledge needed to create a robot that would serve the same function, especially when the world has plenty of sentient (or near-sentient) robots around to study. It just makes a lot more sense for Belthasar to create a robot Nu than to create a biological one, especially when he had plenty of robots to work with, and very few (if any) Nu to work with (We know he arrived alone, and there are no other known Nu in 2300 AD., so he would have no place to get the required biological material.).

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Beyond Time - The End of Time [FINISHED]
« Reply #7 on: November 03, 2004, 07:13:41 am »
Wait, can't it be argued that the Nu is only sleeping? Also, if nothing else, perhaps Belthasar implanted his memory into a device he put inside the Nu, which is what you actually shut off...

Also, it seems fairly easy to create new Nu (that's fun to say! New Nu! New Nu!) as splitting is one of their abilities. Speaking of which, how many robots do you know of that reproduce asexually as Nu may?

Leebot

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Beyond Time - The End of Time [FINISHED]
« Reply #8 on: November 03, 2004, 08:57:48 am »
Well, the Nu appears to freeze in place; any sleeping animal still has to breathe. Even if it is asleep, it's unlikely anyone will come around to wake it up, so it's as good as dead.

But there aren't any Nu in 2300 AD, so Belthasar would have to work from scratch. And I never claimed all Nu were robots, just Belthasar's one.

Actually, in theory, nanoassemblers could be programmed to create exact copies of themselves, so asexual reproduction of robots is a theoretical possibility.

Chrono'99

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« Reply #9 on: November 03, 2004, 02:15:02 pm »
Retrospectively, Belthasar's Nu should be a robot. If Belthasar could input his mind into another living being using some kind of device (which really would be like a Dragon Tear), then he wouldn't have need to bring Dinopolis all the way through the Time Crash in order to obtain a Dragon Tear he can't create on his own... It's a bit farfetched though, as I'm using CC infos to justify a CT thing.

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« Reply #10 on: November 03, 2004, 06:33:00 pm »
Quote from: leebot
Actually, in theory, nanoassemblers could be programmed to create exact copies of themselves, so asexual reproduction of robots is a theoretical possibility.


Now who's going over the bounds of technological knowledge? Genetic engineering or nanotechnology...?

Also, since it IS the future, I don't see why Belthasar couldn't have gotten a hold of genetic engineering technology.

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« Reply #11 on: November 03, 2004, 07:46:13 pm »
Quote from: Chrono'99
Retrospectively, Belthasar's Nu should be a robot. If Belthasar could input his mind into another living being using some kind of device (which really would be like a Dragon Tear), then he wouldn't have need to bring Dinopolis all the way through the Time Crash in order to obtain a Dragon Tear he can't create on his own... It's a bit farfetched though, as I'm using CC infos to justify a CT thing.


I thought the planet brought back Dinopolis.

Leebot

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« Reply #12 on: November 03, 2004, 11:08:08 pm »
Quote from: V_Translanka
Quote from: leebot
Actually, in theory, nanoassemblers could be programmed to create exact copies of themselves, so asexual reproduction of robots is a theoretical possibility.


Now who's going over the bounds of technological knowledge? Genetic engineering or nanotechnology...?

Also, since it IS the future, I don't see why Belthasar couldn't have gotten a hold of genetic engineering technology.


You were the one who challenged me to show how robots could reproduce asexually, so I gave an example of theoretical technology that could. I still stand by the theory that Belthasar's Nu is the only robot; in a future where robots abound, it just doesn't make any sense for him to genetically engineer a new Nu. Besides, robots can be made a lot more reliable and efficient than biological organisms.

Chrono'99

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« Reply #13 on: November 04, 2004, 07:42:27 am »
Quote from: GreenGannon
Quote from: Chrono'99
Retrospectively, Belthasar's Nu should be a robot. If Belthasar could input his mind into another living being using some kind of device (which really would be like a Dragon Tear), then he wouldn't have need to bring Dinopolis all the way through the Time Crash in order to obtain a Dragon Tear he can't create on his own... It's a bit farfetched though, as I'm using CC infos to justify a CT thing.


I thought the planet brought back Dinopolis.

Mmh yeah it's true. But the point is that Belthasar couldn't create a Dragon Tear by himself (let alone 2 of them), so he had to take Dinopolis' one.

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Beyond Time - The End of Time [FINISHED]
« Reply #14 on: November 04, 2004, 04:16:49 pm »
I believe his nu is a cyborg. You meet it in 1000AD in the sealed pyramid, and it seemed completely normal for a nu, and plus it seemed to have a personallity before the program was put into it.  If you talk to it early in the game in 2300AD, You can clearly see it is not a pure machine.