Author Topic: The technological rise of Porre  (Read 8738 times)

Kebrel

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Re: The technological rise of Porre
« Reply #15 on: October 14, 2007, 05:31:17 am »
Porre mayor had the sun stone at one point remember. There no telling how long they had it(at most 400years) or what they learned from it.

Chrono'99

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Re: The technological rise of Porre
« Reply #16 on: October 14, 2007, 06:56:46 am »
You know, that's, like, exactly what I said.

Except Porre may have even found the past version of the Sun Stone (the one that has yet to be found by Crono in 2300 A.D.) by Chrono Cross' time.

Dark Serge

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Re: The technological rise of Porre
« Reply #17 on: October 14, 2007, 10:04:59 am »
Bringing this up makes it weird Porre attacked Guardia in itself. I guess they did acquire powerful weapons, either with the Sun Stone or other manners, and became hungry for power. But if you help that woman in 600 AD, the mayor of Porre in 1000 AD becomes a niceguy.

Kebrel

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Re: The technological rise of Porre
« Reply #18 on: October 14, 2007, 04:29:33 pm »
You know, that's, like, exactly what I said.

Except Porre may have even found the past version of the Sun Stone (the one that has yet to be found by Crono in 2300 A.D.) by Chrono Cross' time.
Whoops missed the end of that post.

jono

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Re: The technological rise of Porre
« Reply #19 on: October 14, 2007, 10:50:43 pm »
I'd just like to say that it's great the way this idea has been developed, I missed most of it but I'll comment properly later on.

ZeaLitY

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Re: The technological rise of Porre
« Reply #20 on: January 13, 2008, 01:02:20 am »
This sounds good.

Porre Artifact Theory

Jono, Nickolz, Chrono'99

Chrono Cross and the events of Chrono Trigger suggest that Crono's meddling may have helped Porre gain technology or power it would not have had in the Lavos Timeline.

1. Crono's actions result in the introduction of a charged Sun Stone into the world of 1000 A.D. Following that year, Porre may have acquired the Sun Stone or discovered the past Sun Stone as well.

2. Cross notes that Porre is apparently excavating ancient ruins, which are the source of Grobyc's StrongArm device.

Quote
Luccia:
   I cannot believe dis...!
   It is an ancient super veapon.
   I do recall my brotter
   talking about dis.
   ...About a super veapon that vas
   excavated near an ancient ruin.
   According to him, dere vere not
   enough parts to complete it,
   but dis shows othervise.
   Dis vould have been
   Grobyc's exclusive veapon.
   I must bring Grobyc here.

Grobyc:
   This-cannot-be...
   This-is-the-ancient-super
   weapon-that-was-in
   development-in-Porre.
   But-what-is-it-doing-here?
   It-looks-complete.

Perhaps these expeditions are motivated by legend of the Frozen Flame, or something else. In any event, this action may have somehow been caused by the adventure in Chrono Trigger; for instance, those who saw the Sun Stone in Porre may have been motivated to search for artifacts like it. Porre may have even found the past Sun Stone during its excavations. Comparing the maps of 2300 A.D. and 1000 A.D., the Sun Palace lies near Porre's former location. However, it is important to note that the world of 2300 A.D. is very continentally different from the eras of 600 A.D. and 1000 A.D.

In conclusion, these artifacts of Zeal can be construed as foreign to the timeline, a condition Masato Kato assigns whatever caused the Fall of Guardia following Chrono Trigger.

~

Well, what do you know. The Porre Artifact theory already exists in name, but it doesn't include this information. I've added it to:

http://www.chronocompendium.com/Term/The_Rise_of_Porre.html#Porre_Artifacts

Eske

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Re: The technological rise of Porre
« Reply #21 on: January 29, 2008, 02:04:21 am »
I have a more simple explaination to offer.  I don't have any evidence, save for some text in one of CT's endings.

1. Crono and Co. defeat Lavos
2. They come back to 1000 A.D. and say their hellos to everyone
3. They attend the Midnight Parade at Leene Square
4. By talking to some of the characters, you learn that everyone and their brother knows that Crono and Co. saved the future.

Its possible that more details of their adventures leaked out (such as the time travel thing) and Porre felt threatened by such power.  They may have demanded more details about time travel and the gates, but were probably told "the gates are closed forever, don't worry about it."  Fearing that this perceived and misunderstood ability to alter time gave Guardia an incredible militaristic advantage, Porre began a full scale invasion to crush Guardia and "ensure" its own survival.

So there, I said it.  =)

MagilsugaM

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Re: The technological rise of Porre
« Reply #22 on: February 08, 2008, 06:10:25 pm »
Yes...
But I am sure that they won't able to destroy Guardia only with their people.Perhaps Porre really found more acient weapons in that excavation but the posivilities of this are 1 of 100000. However it's inpossible to understad all by simple saying that in chrono cross just could be more than one dimension.

1stoftheLast

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Re: The technological rise of Porre
« Reply #23 on: October 19, 2008, 04:49:55 pm »
This always got me, Porre becoming an overnight (ok oversequel) superpower.  I just didn't see it when I was playing through Chrono Trigger.  Obviously people will lust for more power, but it's quite a trick to get a large group of people all together on something like that.  What kind of motives do we know of that would cause this seemingly change in cultural philosophy? 

Or did the developers just not want Guardia to be the bad guys and drew a new superpower out of a hat?

Boo the Gentleman Caller

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Re: The technological rise of Porre
« Reply #24 on: October 19, 2008, 09:05:00 pm »
Well Porre was just a little area in Chrono Trigger, but because of the new future, time was altered to allow Porre to become a huge nation, equally powerful (if not moreso) than Guardia Kingdom. 

You see, because Lavos was destroyed and the Day of Lavos never occurred, Chronopolis was created in 2400 AD.  The counter-time experiment was created and it eventually hurled Chronopolis to the Ice Age, roughly 7000-9000 BC (I can't remember the exact details of time).  Through that event, El Nido was CREATED, and the FATE mother computer of Chronopolis tried very hard to keep El Nido isolated from the outside world, in order to preserve the timeline.  In order to keep universal harmony, Dinopolis was pulled from an alternate timeline.  However, Chronopolis and Dinopolis warred with each other.

(Note: Dinopolis was the Reptite-reality counterpart to Chronopolis.  It held 65 million years worth of Reptite-dimension technology, which was quite different from the 65 million years worth of Human-dimension technology.  The Reptite-dimension technology included a bio-organic living supercomputer known that became the Six Dragons, as well as powerful, magic-like Elements.)

However, several hundred years before 1000 AD Porre found it's way to and 'discovered' El Nido.  They likewise discovered Elements and similar pieces of technology from the Reptite-dimension, effectively altering time and allowing the new and powerful technology to grow their nation into the Porre we witness in Chrono Cross.

Thought

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Re: The technological rise of Porre
« Reply #25 on: October 21, 2008, 11:29:01 am »
The Sun Stone? That is incredibly unlikely to have influenced the timeline.

While it is a powerful artifact, there are several problems with assuming that it could have changed the course of history. First, even if Porre found the 1000 AD "Sun Stone" (to note, Crono & Co used the 2300 AD Sun Stone), it wasn't really the Sun Stone. It was a partially charged Moon Stone. The question is if the Moon Stone is like a battery (partially charge it and you can use the charge even if it isn't full) or if it is like a nuclear reaction (it has to reach critical mass before it does anything fun).

Second, even assuming Porre obtained the Sun Stone, would they have even realized what it was capable of? People have known about lead for ages, but it was only after the discovery of radiation that we learned that lead is so good at blocking it. Likewise, oil was well known throughout much of human history, but only with the advent of the internal combustion engine was it even possible to apply oil for locomotive purposes.

Third, its primary purpose in Zeal (and even for Crono & Co) was as an Energy Source. Thus, in order to utilize it, Porre would have needed to have been able to extract that energy (plausible, as Lucca was able to do so with 1000 AD tech), but it would have also needed such exotic energy. Give a rural tribal village in Africa a nuclear power plant and they'll have access to more energy than they can imagine, but that doesn't suddenly turn them into a regional superpower. Energy Sources have one purpose; to provide power for those objects that require it. Before the Sun Stone could have influence Porre, Porre would need to have developed technology that required levels of Energy that only the Sun Stone could have practically provided. However, Porrean tech appears to be fairly primitive, on a near steam-punk level. Their energy needs do not seem to necessitate a power source like the Sun Stone.

Fourth, the secondary purpose of the Sun Stone is in its ability to form very nice alloys. Unfortunately, it appears that the only individual aware of this is Melchior. If Porre had Melchior working for them, then the Sun Stone becomes a moot point; Melchior is that influence outside the normal flow of time.


Zealean technology, on the other hand, is a very interesting possibility but I am afraid you haven't thought out the implications fully. Saying that Zealean technology is responsible for the rise of Porre is like saying that the answer to the question of "the chicken or the egg" is "coq au vin." The discovery of Zealean Technology must inherently occur after the influence that lead to the Rise of Porre, it cannot be that influence itself. If Zealean technology was sufficient to change the course of history and cause the Rise of Porre, then in the original timeline Porre must not have discovered it. The question is, then, what influenced Porre in such a manner that they discovered and began to unearth Zealean technology?

Zealean artifacts could be construed as foreign to the timeline, but they cannot satisfy Masato Kato's remarks; they are effects, not causes. There must be some other influence foreign to the original timeline that even led Porre to discover the Zealean Artifacts.


I am with Boo on this; the cause of the Rise of Porre must be in the rise of El Nido (though I disagree that Elements influenced that rise, as FATE would have been largely working against allowing those out into the wide world... unless Records of Fate accompanied Elements). But the very fact that El Nido existed shifted the political landscape significantly. In the pre-time-crash timeline, the Acacia Dragoons existed in the Porrean region at least up until around 1000 AD. In the post-time-crash timeline, the Acacia Dragoons moved to El Nido fairly early on. This left a power vacuum in the Porrean region, Porre could have then been able to expand, by expanding it might have gained access to sites where Zealean technology rested under the ground (such as the would-be site of Viper Manor, if only the Acacia Dragoons were still there to have built it).

Hmm okay they only appear in Home World. But Lucca says they don't exist in this timeline anymore.
I don't how to interpret that, did they die or did they just disappear from the Home World timeline?
And is Home World even a timeline itself?

Sort of. It appears that the Chronoverse is not a fractal multiverse. That is, every decision does not cause the universe to branch into two separate dimensions in which both decisions occur. Multiple dimensions seem to be able to exist, but the exact nature of these dimensions are difficult to determine (did they split from a single dimension or are they all unique from beginning to end and just happen to have similar elements?). But regardless, a timeline is the particular form that a single dimension takes. It is kind of like playdoh; the dimension is the playdoh itself, but the timeline is the shape that the playdoh has been molded into. If you change the timeline, the dimension remains the same, just as if you had made a bird out of playdoh but then changed it into a snake. The playdoh is still the same playdoh, but the shape has changed.

However, in CC, something went amiss. The Timeline was changed but instead of replacing the old one, it creates a new dimension. The one ball of playdoh somehow became two separate balls of playdoh, each with similar but different shapes.

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Re: The technological rise of Porre
« Reply #26 on: December 10, 2008, 04:58:40 pm »
"Do they appear on both another world and home world?  If not then re-read what you said say "Doesn't exist in THIS world".  It could possibly say that they're not alive in that current world but are in another one.  Then again, I really have no clue how they would project themselves like that."      cough Epoch cough End of Time cough.    Excuse me but I guess the other force must be giving me the caughs.

Dark Serge

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Re: The technological rise of Porre
« Reply #27 on: April 03, 2009, 04:46:51 am »
They do appear both in Home and Another. They have a much bigger influence in Home World however.

Feldschlacht IV

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Re: The technological rise of Porre
« Reply #28 on: April 18, 2009, 02:22:12 pm »
It doesn't really help that we don't see much of Porre in CT, which is why we mistakenly might believe that it's just an irrelevant little town.

Zephira

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Re: The technological rise of Porre
« Reply #29 on: April 18, 2009, 02:35:04 pm »
Porre mayor had the sun stone at one point remember. There no telling how long they had it(at most 400years) or what they learned from it.
Quote from: CTscript
Porre Mayor: You're interested in the Moon Stone?
Well, someone simply left it here.
Retranslation:
Porre Mayor: Darkness Stone? Ah, if you mean that, a young traveler left it here.

Sounds like the Sun Stone just recently came into Porre's  possession. He didn't seem too attached to it, and neither did anyone else in the household, so I don't think they studied it too much.