Author Topic: Lavos and Guardian (boss) paradox?  (Read 13843 times)

Zaperking

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Re: Lavos and Guardian (boss) paradox?
« Reply #15 on: September 21, 2007, 09:26:33 pm »
I'm pretty sure it's canon that Crono and co defeat Lavos via the Black Omen in 12,000BC.
Anything else and you have conflicting evidence.
For instance, should Lavos be defeated in 1,999AD, firstly that means the humans would detect a distrubance, and Lavos' rising.
Secondly, it'd mean Zeal would be fact because of the ruined Black Omen and the people who saw it in 600AD +.

alpha

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Re: Lavos and Guardian (boss) paradox?
« Reply #16 on: September 22, 2007, 02:35:20 am »
what if the pocket dimension somehow existed both in and out of time.?

Chrono'99

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Re: Lavos and Guardian (boss) paradox?
« Reply #17 on: September 23, 2007, 01:22:50 pm »
I'm pretty sure it's canon that Crono and co defeat Lavos via the Black Omen in 12,000BC.
Anything else and you have conflicting evidence.
You have conflicting evidence any way you look at it. Defeating Lavos in 12,000 B.C. does not prevent him from emerging in 1999 A.D. to ruin the world. This is because he has already emerged from his PD (=time-traveled) in 1999 A.D. (Crono can only travel to the ruined future, which means that Lavos "time-traveled" to 1999 A.D. before Crono time-travels to 2300 A.D., 12000 B.C., or anywhen else.) The only solution is to revise one of the site's theory, because there's something wrong somewhere.

Quote
For instance, should Lavos be defeated in 1,999AD, firstly that means the humans would detect a distrubance, and Lavos' rising.

This one argument is inconclusive. The statement in Chronopolis allows for a fairly large amount of interpretation. The ghost says that...

Quote
   On some time lines, Lavos
   appeared on the surface of
   the planet in the year 1999
   and brought the world to
   ruins.

The sentence is:

"On some time lines, Lavos appeared on the surface of the planet in the year 1999 and brought the world to ruins."

There are two statements here, "A" and "B" (they're separated by the "and"). The ghost then says that the Apocalypse was prevented in his timeline; basically that "B" was negated. However, he says nothing about "A". We don't know if Lavos appeared on the surface in his timeline or if he didn't appear at all. And we don't know what happened after the final battle in CT; perhaps Lavos's shell exploded in the Core's crazy time-warping effect and left no corpse on the field (or was sucked and fell directly in the DBT...).

Chronopolis may have sensed a disturbance and known about a mysterious hole in the ground; Lavos may have emerged and been defeated before a photo or recording of him could be made; we don't know. The only thing that Chronopolis definitely didn't get is the destruction of the world, the "Apocalypse". And a potential disturbance or a hole don't constitute useful information for them, even if they have them.

Quote
Secondly, it'd mean Zeal would be fact because of the ruined Black Omen and the people who saw it in 600AD +.

Inconclusive too. You can beat the Black Omen in 12000 B.C. and retreat after defeating Lavos's first form, then face Lavos again using the Epoch or the 1999 A.D. bucket.


---

Anyway, I've attached two two-dimensional timelines to this post. The regular timeline is on the y axis. The Time Error line, which corresponds to the order of each change to the timeline by the time-travelers, is on the x axis. Read each diagram horizontally so as to not get confused.

Let's consider the first diagram, which corresponds to the "Compendium's canon", with Lavos in a Pocket Dimension, etc. Remember that Pocket Dimensions run on the Time Error axis rather than the regular timeline. Thus, on the diagram, Lavos's Pocket Dimension only exists between point A (his arrival on the planet) and point D (his dissolving of the PD in 1999 A.D. and emerging). Let's summarize the problem.

Facts:
- Lavos appears in 12000 B.C. after the Black Omen is beaten (point I on my diagram).
- If the party defeated Lavos's shell earlier in the game, Lavos will be without shell (well, without "head" more precisely) there.

Issue:
- According to the Pocket Dimension theory and the Time Error principle, Lavos shouldn't even be able to appear in 12000 B.C. after the Black Omen, since his Pocket Dimension has already been dissolved at point D. He also never appeared at that date in the original timeline (no Black Omen back then).

Flawed solution (in case you're wondering):
- Perhaps Lavos simply never dissolved his PD? He wouldn't have exited it in 1999 A.D. and continued to live within it on Death Peak. This doesn't work, because even if Lavos didn't exit his PD at point D, his Destruction Rain would still have exited it, and thus the Rain would still appear in 1999 A.D. at point J, destroying the world.

It's complicated, so let's consider the second diagram, which corresponds to what the game should be if we discard the Pocket Dimension theory. Lavos would be a normal inhabitant of the timeline and the Apocalypse a normal event of history rather than the result of him entering the timeline from somewhere else (a Pocket Dimension). Surprisingly, the diagram is heavily simplified in this scenario (I kept the same letters for consistency).

In this no-PD scenario, the only issue is how Lavos loses his head in 12000 B.C. after the Black Omen if you had destroyed it in 1999 A.D. (this unique issue was the reason the PD theory was imagined initially). Well, a possible solution is that this 12000 B.C. Lavos is the 1999 A.D. one time-traveling to the past. This solution was already mentioned in this thread, but it's really less farfetched and more simple with the PD theory taken out. Seeing how Lavos can time-warp people and his Core can create weird time-warping vortex effects, Lavos can probably time-travel himself. This would even explain why the Ocean Palace Lavos always has its head regardless of what you do to him in 1999 A.D. (the OP Lavos would simply be the past version of the 1999 A.D. one).

We can leave it this way: Lavos is defeated in 12000 B.C. No paradox, no unresolvable issue. It works, I think.

As for what to do with the Armageddon-Branch theory, we'll discuss that in another thread because there's probably too much stuff here already (I hope this post made sense).


EDIT: Actually, the "flawed" solution can work if we say that exiting a Pocket Dimension doesn't grant Time Traveler's Immunity (alpha's suggestion of existing both "in and out of time"), and that Lavos created his PD at point B (like V_Translanka once suggested). Thus his defeat in the PD would prevent the Apocalypse, but not the Fall of Zeal which was caused by a non-PD Lavos. Thoughts?

[attachment deleted by admin]
« Last Edit: September 23, 2007, 02:18:07 pm by Chrono'99 »

Kebrel

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Re: Lavos and Guardian (boss) paradox?
« Reply #18 on: September 23, 2007, 02:27:36 pm »
What if Lavos could just regenerate his head? because really it was just a mouth not his real head. Some thing of his power should be able to.

Chrono'99

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Re: Lavos and Guardian (boss) paradox?
« Reply #19 on: September 23, 2007, 06:44:51 pm »
What if Lavos could just regenerate his head? because really it was just a mouth not his real head. Some thing of his power should be able to.
What is your point? Lavos does not regenerate his head when you destroy it.

Kebrel

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Re: Lavos and Guardian (boss) paradox?
« Reply #20 on: September 23, 2007, 06:56:39 pm »
In this no-PD scenario, the only issue is how Lavos loses his head in 12000 B.C. after the Black Omen if you had destroyed it in 1999 A.D. (this unique issue was the reason the PD theory was imagined initially). Well, a possible solution is that this 12000 B.C. Lavos is the 1999 A.D. one time-traveling to the past. This solution was already mentioned in this thread, but it's really less farfetched and more simple with the PD theory taken out. Seeing how Lavos can time-warp people and his Core can create weird time-warping vortex effects, Lavos can probably time-travel himself. This would even explain why the Ocean Palace Lavos always has its head regardless of what you do to him in 1999 A.D. (the OP Lavos would simply be the past version of the 1999 A.D. one).

Unless I misunderstood your post, I will to admit that I could be wrong. One of the problems related to the head, I see no reason that lavos couldn't have grown back his head. instead of going 1999 A.D. --> 12000 B.C. Lavos could just as easily have gone 1999 A.D.  --> PD --> 12000A.D. and while Lavos was at the PD he waited, and recovered.  That is what Any sentient creature would do, recover before running head long in to battle.

Chrono'99

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Re: Lavos and Guardian (boss) paradox?
« Reply #21 on: September 24, 2007, 05:15:45 am »
In this no-PD scenario, the only issue is how Lavos loses his head in 12000 B.C. after the Black Omen if you had destroyed it in 1999 A.D. (this unique issue was the reason the PD theory was imagined initially). Well, a possible solution is that this 12000 B.C. Lavos is the 1999 A.D. one time-traveling to the past. This solution was already mentioned in this thread, but it's really less farfetched and more simple with the PD theory taken out. Seeing how Lavos can time-warp people and his Core can create weird time-warping vortex effects, Lavos can probably time-travel himself. This would even explain why the Ocean Palace Lavos always has its head regardless of what you do to him in 1999 A.D. (the OP Lavos would simply be the past version of the 1999 A.D. one).

Unless I misunderstood your post, I will to admit that I could be wrong. One of the problems related to the head, I see no reason that lavos couldn't have grown back his head. instead of going 1999 A.D. --> 12000 B.C. Lavos could just as easily have gone 1999 A.D.  --> PD --> 12000A.D. and while Lavos was at the PD he waited, and recovered.  That is what Any sentient creature would do, recover before running head long in to battle.

You're mixing up two problems; I guess I spent too much time explaining one and then I mentioned the other too abruptly. There are 2 Lavos appearances in 12000 B.C.:

1/ Lavos appears during the Ocean Palace disaster (the scene where Crono dies); this one always has its head intact.
2/ Lavos appears after you beat Queen Zeal in the Black Omen; this one can have its head destroyed if you have destroyed it in 1999 A.D.

Point 2/ is the reason the Pocket Dimension theory was invented: he's in the past, yet something done to him in the future affects him here in the past. This sounds good, but there was a slight problem with that theory; I've tried to fix this problem in this topic.

Now point 1/ is something I've only mentioned once, in the post you quoted. The Ocean Palace Lavos always has its head intact regardless of what you do to Lavos elsewhere. The site's explanation is that it's just a gameplay inconsistency because you're supposed to lose to Lavos during that scene to continue to normal storyline (Crono dies). That's why I didn't focus on it in the topic. But according to both possible solutions that I proposed (the "no-PD theory" and what I called the "flawed solution", which I un-flawed in the EDIT), this inconsistency is fixed even though it wasn't the focus, so I mentioned it in passing.

And to be clear, I think what I called the "flawed solution" is better than the "no-PD theory" now. Basically all we have to do is add these fixes to the PD theory for it to work:

-Lavos never exited his PD once he created it (this explains how you can actually fight the same Lavos in 1999 A.D. and 12000 B.C. after the Black Omen)
-Exiting a PD doesn't grant Time Traveler's Immunity (this explains why killing Lavos in 12000 B.C. after the Black Omen prevents the Destruction Rain from still appearing in 1999 A.D.)
-Lavos created his PD during the Ocean Palace disaster (this explains why killing Lavos in 12000 B.C. after the Black Omen doesn't prevent the Fall of Zeal, which happened before the PD's creation)

Any flaw or problem remaining?


EDIT: I've attached a revised diagram. Lavos's creation of the PD is a natural event of the timeline which happens at 12000 B.C., so I didn't mark it on the Time Error axis. Since the PD isn't outside of time, I've put two dots for the Time Egg event (you save Crono from the regular past). Also, note that Lavos could have been defeated in 12000 B.C. after the Black Omen, but I marked his death in 1999 A.D. because this makes the Armageddon-Branch theory valid.

[attachment deleted by admin]
« Last Edit: September 24, 2007, 06:01:15 am by Chrono'99 »

alpha

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Re: Lavos and Guardian (boss) paradox?
« Reply #22 on: September 26, 2007, 12:59:00 am »
Quote
-Exiting a PD doesn't grant Time Traveler's Immunity (this explains why killing Lavos in 12000 B.C. after the Black Omen prevents the Destruction Rain from still appearing in 1999 A.D.)
why wouldnt exiting or entire the pd grant tti? what logic is behind this statement.  if you go to the future the display still shows the destructive rain. defeat lavos in 12000 then go to the future(2300) and check..

Loki Fenrisulf

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Re: Lavos and Guardian (boss) paradox?
« Reply #23 on: September 27, 2007, 07:06:54 pm »
Well, I see no Paradox on them meeting Lavos only after watching the video... I mean, the video was already recorded, if was a video of the future. If it was a paradox, so would be they getting to the destroyed future at all.

Vaij

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Re: Lavos and Guardian (boss) paradox?
« Reply #24 on: September 27, 2007, 10:47:28 pm »
I believe that most of the articles here feel that Lavos in 2300 A.D. is lying dormant as Death Peak after giving birth to its spawn, and given the sheer size of him, I wouldn't be surprised if Crono and friends did not initially realize that the mountain was actually Lavos' shell. As for the Guardian, I personally feel it's possible that the robot could have been built to defend something in 1999, so Lavos may have seen it and it's attacks when attacking civilization, and decided, for reasons of its own, to rebuild it.

Infinitus

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Re: Lavos and Guardian (boss) paradox?
« Reply #25 on: September 28, 2007, 07:35:27 pm »
Couldnīt Lavos just have read the mind of the party during the battle and used their memories in order to recreate the enemies they have encountered?

justin3009

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Re: Lavos and Guardian (boss) paradox?
« Reply #26 on: October 02, 2007, 03:34:36 pm »
I don't think Lavos actually reads minds of people, but more or less reads memories of the world.  I never realized how flawed this whole Lavos thing is until I actually started reading this...Does kinda leave alot of a questions.

Chrono'99

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Re: Lavos and Guardian (boss) paradox?
« Reply #27 on: October 13, 2007, 08:44:05 am »
Quote
-Exiting a PD doesn't grant Time Traveler's Immunity (this explains why killing Lavos in 12000 B.C. after the Black Omen prevents the Destruction Rain from still appearing in 1999 A.D.)
why wouldnt exiting or entire the pd grant tti? what logic is behind this statement.  if you go to the future the display still shows the destructive rain. defeat lavos in 12000 then go to the future(2300) and check..

Exiting a PD can't grant TTI because things don't work otherwise (paradoxes, plot-holes, etc.). Besides, you can't go to 2300 A.D. after defeating Lavos in 12000 B.C. (if you're talking about defeating just his first form, then it doesn't change anything either; Lavos is still alive even without head).

I don't think Lavos actually reads minds of people, but more or less reads memories of the world.  I never realized how flawed this whole Lavos thing is until I actually started reading this...Does kinda leave alot of a questions.

This is possible. After all the Frozen Flame can read minds, so Lavos could probably read the planet's memories. Anyway, I don't think there's problems left with the explanations posted above, though this is indeed a bit complicated.

Azala

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Re: Lavos and Guardian (boss) paradox?
« Reply #28 on: October 13, 2007, 12:56:00 pm »
Ironically, I highly doubt that the writers ever put this this much thought into the whole Lavos situation.

Dark Serge

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Re: Lavos and Guardian (boss) paradox?
« Reply #29 on: October 14, 2007, 09:56:03 am »
I didn't read everything but I think when the Black Omen rises you can clear it in 2300 AD too. And if you do, this wouldn't be a issue.