Lavos and Guardian (boss) paradox?

[Chrono'99]

This question is short and straightforward but I don't think it has been asked and answered yet. Maybe I'm forgetting some simple detail that explains it... I don't know. Here's the question: how can Lavos copy Guardian's battle mode (you know, the robot boss from Arris Dome), and the Lavos Core time-warp to the ruined future, even though the Apocalypse didn't happen yet when the party fights him? How does this work with the Compendium's "Flow Principle"?

[ZeaLitY]

Chrono Trigger is rapidly falling apart. But...

I just imagined that since the Guardian was created before 1999 A.D., Lavos was aware of it and also examined machines in producing his genome. And then for shifting it to the ruined future, we can tie it in to the primary Entity eras, as if Lavos is manipulating them. Of course, if...

Yeah, if the party is fighting him to prevent the ruined future, he shouldn't be able to go there.

So I don't think the Guardian's a plot hole, but 2300 A.D. definitely is. The only example of "seeing the future" from the past is Chronopolis, and it's a special case.

[Azala]

Well, who says Lavos shouldn't be able to take them to the ruined world, just because it hasn't happened yet?  As long as Lavos is alive, the "ruined world" future will remain the set outcome. During the battle, since Lavos hasn't been stopped yet, that future will remain true until the point that Lavos is defeated and thus the "ruined" future is undone.

[Kyronea]

The Guardian, as Zeality suggested, was most probably created before 1999 and was examined by Lavos like everything else. Given the way he manipulated the Kingdom of Zeal, it's not unreasonable to presume he would examine technology by the future humans as well.

As for the time warping...I never took it literally...it seemed to me to be more poetic, especially since the only point was for him to use some sort of linked ability, which makes absolutely no sense if he is actually time warping the party around.

[Chrono'99]

Well, who says Lavos shouldn't be able to take them to the ruined world, just because it hasn't happened yet?  As long as Lavos is alive, the "ruined world" future will remain the set outcome. During the battle, since Lavos hasn't been stopped yet, that future will remain true until the point that Lavos is defeated and thus the "ruined" future is undone.

http://www.chronocompendium.com/Term/Flow_Principle.html

[Chrono'99]

So, according to Zeality and Kyronea's explanations, the diagram on Lavos's Pocket Dimension (here) must be incorrect. Lavos in his Pocket Dimenson shouldn't be able to look into the ruined future. Interestingly, what Lavos should see when he looks into the future of the timeline from his PD is actually a prosperous future, a future devoid of his influence and thus very similar to the Chrono Cross one, with Belthasar finding the Frozen Flame and building Chronopolis... The only difference would be that Belthasar doesn't plan Project Kid in this future, since Schala has yet to be sucked into the Darkness Beyond Time (the PD is in the Time Error "past", Crono didn't visit Zeal yet) and obviously Lavos has yet to die to merge with her.

However, since Crono's party does visit the ruined future, this means that Lavos's whole PD is in the "past" in terms of Time Error. This fits with the fact that the future must be ruined first for the Entity to see a need to send Crono on his quest. This also means that, during Crono's adventure through time, the PD is already desintegrated, as the "most recent" Lavos (in terms of Time Error) came out in 1999 AD and became (or nested on) Death Peak. I don't know if it's relevant to anything, but this means that all the Lavoses that the party meets in the game are actually past versions of Lavos.

I attached a modified version of the diagram to illustrate what the PD's Lavos can see and what he cannot:

[attachment deleted by admin]

[Azala]

But doesn't Lavos have time traveller's immunity? If so, then killing a past version wouldn't affect the future versions, right? Or am I completely wrong?

[Chrono'99]

But doesn't Lavos have time traveller's immunity? If so, then killing a past version wouldn't affect the future versions, right? Or am I completely wrong?

You're right... Killing a past version of Lavos would still not prevent the present/future version of him from emerging in 1,999 A.D., so there's a problem somewhere. If the party goes in 12,000 B.C. and engages Lavos in his PD (=the past Lavos), then even if they are "shifted" to 1,999 A.D. during the fight, there would still be another Lavos (=the present version) emerging in 1,999 A.D. during or after the same battle.

A possible solution could be that the Lavos that the party engages in 12,000 B.C. is actually the present version. Lavos would emerge from his PD in 1,999 A.D. and would for some reason decide to recreate/reenter the PD and travel to 12,000 B.C. to fight the party... and then shift back to 1,999 A.D. during the battle. I think it makes sense in terms of logic, but in terms of reasoning, why would Lavos make all these trips back and forth? In particular, why would he emerge in 1,999 A.D. before going to meet the party in 12,000 B.C., why not directly go meet them first?

Or is it that it's not Lavos's choice, but Queen Zeal in the Black Omen who forcefully summons the present version back through time to fight the party since he should be the most grown-up, most powerful version of Lavos? Gee, that's interesting, but complicated (and we're not even throwing the Time Crash into the mix yet...).

[ZeaLitY]

My idea was that entering the PD shifts you to 1999 A.D. at the moment it dissolves and Lavos appears.

[Azala]

My idea was that entering the PD shifts you to 1999 A.D. at the moment it dissolves and Lavos appears.

Well, that would explain the fact that when fight him in 12,000 from the Black Omen, it shows him blow up 1999.

[Chrono'99]

It doesn't comply with the PD principle unfortunately. I forgot to take this principle into account in my middle paragraph in my previous post.

The premise of CT is that Lavos has "already" destroyed the world in 1999 A.D. once, and thus the Entity sends Crono on his quest through time to revert this Apocalypse. But if Lavos has already destroyed the world, this means he already exited his PD, so shouldn't this PD be dissolved for all the timeline? The PD shouldn't be able to appear in 12,000 B.C. after the Black Omen, since it has already been dissolved (or at least it should be empty, with Lavos away). It's like, instead of having a Lavos with no shell, there shouldn't be a Lavos at all... unless the Lavos that appears is the one that emerged in 1999 A.D. (the "present" Lavos).

The "no shell" detail seems to be a proof that it's really the 1,999 A.D. Lavos that appears in 12,000 B.C. If you defeat his shell in 1,999 A.D. and go back to 12,000 B.C., Lavos will appear after the Black Omen with his shell defeated. This means he emerged from his PD in 1999 A.D., may or may not encounter the party depending on their actions, and then he reenters his PD to go all the way back to 12,000 B.C., either summoned by Queen Zeal or on his own will.

[ZeaLitY]

Then I guess Lavos in 12000 B.C. could be said to have emerged via TTI and disappeared via Time Bastard. This is so far from what the developers or Kato probably intended, though...they probably still think Lavos actually was underground for 65 million years.

[Chrono'99]

Lavos emerging a second time in 12000 B.C. (after the OP disaster) is a problem because he could do that only if he also emerged a second time in the original 12000 B.C., and this is unlikely since the Black Omen didn't rise in the original timeline.

The core of these issues is with Time Error: from the party's perspective, Lavos has already emerged in 1999 A.D. to destroy the world, which means that his Pocket Dimension is already either dissolved or empty for all the timeline. As a result, the party can never enter his Pocket Dimension or even see it at all. All they can see is various versions of Lavoses, including the 1999 A.D. one, emerging from thin air. At this point, I'm starting to think the Pocket Dimension theory is either flawed or superfluous... Perhaps Lavos was really underground for 6500000 years? Queen Zeal still has to summon the 1999 A.D. Lavos (because of the shell detail), but other things might perhaps be simplified in this scenario.

In any case, Time Error is like a line that runs perpendicular to the normal timeline, right? Then I'm going to try sketching a two-dimensional timeline to see if things are clearer that way. That should be funny.

[dankun]

In any case, Time Error is like a line that runs perpendicular to the normal timeline, right? Then I'm going to try sketching a two-dimensional timeline to see if things are clearer that way. That should be funny.

Why would it be funny? It can still make as much sense as the Pocket Dimension theory....if done correctly.

[Chrono'99]

In any case, Time Error is like a line that runs perpendicular to the normal timeline, right? Then I'm going to try sketching a two-dimensional timeline to see if things are clearer that way. That should be funny.

Why would it be funny? It can still make as much sense as the Pocket Dimension theory....if done correctly.

I mean funny as in interesting, exciting. The problem is with the PD theory, not Time Error. The latter is really just the simple observation that time-travelers have a personal "time" above the normal time, it can't really be argued with. On the contrary, the PD is a theory, and it may or may not be correct.