Author Topic: The $%*! frustration thread  (Read 479758 times)

Katie Skyye

  • Poet of El Nido
  • Acacia Deva (+500)
  • *
  • Posts: 575
  • And you'll never catch her...
    • View Profile
    • Katie Skyye's Deviantart
Re: The $%*! frustration thread
« Reply #6330 on: November 09, 2011, 06:44:15 pm »
As a right-handed person I am completely okay with a right-favoring control scheme, though I realize that it may cause problems for left-handers. At least half of my nerdy friends are left-handed, though, and none of them have yet expressed any dismay...

...and excluding an official Zelda game from canon is just silly, in my opinion, and I don't feel the need to back that opinion up, so don't bother challenging me on it.

Syna

  • Squaretable Knight (+400)
  • *
  • Posts: 448
    • View Profile
Re: The $%*! frustration thread
« Reply #6331 on: November 09, 2011, 07:05:41 pm »
To note, Link's handedness is rarely consistent even within a game. He swings his sword with his left hand, yes, but which hand does he use to operate the hookshot, to pull the string on his bow, or to push objects? His right. What hand does he used to throw the boomerang? His left.

Ambidexterity really is the only explanation.


I notice this in a lot of supposedly left-handed characters in anime-- Sephiroth and Utena come to mind. Good point!

rushingwind

  • Guru of Life Emeritus
  • Squaretable Knight (+400)
  • *
  • Posts: 425
    • View Profile
Re: The $%*! frustration thread
« Reply #6332 on: November 09, 2011, 07:15:50 pm »
My frustration: In the attempt to squash pseudoscientific alternative medicine, sometimes we accidentally lump in the real doctors too!

https://www.burzynskimovie.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=126

This clinic treats cancer patients by running a genetic profile of the patient and using the medicine they think will work best with the individual's genome. Anyone who knows me also knows that I am extremely anti-alternative medicine, but this guy does NOT fall into that category. He's a real medical doctor, and his methods have cured a lot of patients who had cancer, and they're living years later cancer free! That's really amazing. His medicine is in Stage 3 FDA trials right now for approval for cancer treatment, the final stage before approval!

Now the Texas Board of Health is suing to take away his medical license because he was unable to cure two of his cancer patients. One had an extremely rare cancer that has less than a thousand recorded cases in history, and the other was triple negative breast cancer. I don't understand the logic here... I don't know of any oncologists who have only lost two cancer patients in the course of their career!

The video explains it in more detail, but the possible outcome is very distressing. If he loses his license, his clinic will shut down and all his patients will find themselves without treatment. And also, he's the only guy in the entire United States doing this right now.

It's possible I'm missing some crucial detail here, but I don't know of one. I made a note of this guy a few years ago, and thought he'd be interesting to follow. Alternative medicine nuts may claim to cure cancer, but this guy actually has scores of documented people who have been cured of serious, terminal cancer. That's noteworthy!

People seem to think it's some drug company conspiracy or whatever. I don't really buy into all that, but as for Texas just generally being and doing batshit crazy stuff? Yeah, I believe that!

Lord J Esq

  • Moon Stone J
  • Hero of Time (+5000)
  • *
  • Posts: 5463
  • ^_^ "Ayla teach at college level!!"
    • View Profile
Re: The $%*! frustration thread
« Reply #6333 on: November 09, 2011, 08:13:58 pm »
While I'm also kinda disappointed about Link being right-handed in Skyward Sword (I'm left-handed as well), and even got the GameCube version of Twilight Princess over the Wii one, but isn't the whole 'right handedness being not canon' a little extreme?

People have different things which matter to them. To me, it's not trivial that they're changing one of Nintendo's only star left-handers to not be left-handed anymore. It's a big disappointment.

But I was joking, which some folks didn't get, about declaring Skyward Sword to be non-canonical. As it turns out, I'm not a Nintendo vice president and don't have the authority to actually do that. Nor, as it turns out, am I actually planning to invade Japan.

Or so you think.

One thing you guys should be aware is that Link is actually ambidextrous, mostly since Shigeru Miyamoto is ambidextrous himself.

I don't know where you got this information, but it isn't correct. He is sometimes described as "ambidextrous," but he clearly prefers his left-handed. Left-handedness and double-handedness are not the same thing. Given his age, and the lingering social stigma of being left-handed in Japan, it's likely that he was raised to be skilled in the use of his right hand because of social factors, not innate handedness.

However, Link is not strictly left-handed. Indeed, I remember that for A Link to the Past, I think the Manual stated Link would switch hands when he had Death Mountain to his left because of the superstition that all evil came from there, and so would have his shield on the left in-between the mountain and him.

Your memory is incorrect--although that would have been a very flavor-rich addition to the manual! To be sure, I reviewed the manual.

Gameplay-wise this is just because the sprite was mirrored when facing the other way, but why have this big of an explanation then?

It's correct that the "facing right" sprite set is just a mirror of the "facing left" set, to save space on the cartridge. But there is no in-universe explanation for it.

~~~ ~~~ ~~~
To note, Link's handedness is rarely consistent even within a game. He swings his sword with his left hand, yes, but which hand does he use to operate the hookshot, to pull the string on his bow, or to push objects? His right. What hand does he used to throw the boomerang? His left.

It would depend on which games and which item combinations you are talking about, but as something of a left-handed fanatic I pay very close attention to this stuff and I have always been very satisfied to see that the Link in each game has always acted in a fully left-handed manner. It would seem your memory is mistaken. Just to be sure, I checked some YouTube footage of various game actions across the games. Even in A Link to the Past, he operates the bow left-handed, for instance, and the hammer, the bug-catching net, and the boomerang. (The bow is held in the right hand, and the arrow is cocked with the left.)

There are some instances where Link uses exclusively his right hand to operate something. Those are always combination items, where he will remain free to use his left hand on more important equipment, or they are cinematic sequences. And there are not many of them! The designers and artists were remarkably consistent about this throughout the series--just as they will be with a right-handed Link in Skyward Sword.

Many right-handers don't pay attention to this stuff because they don't think of the world as being any other way. Right-handed artists routinely draw characters in left-handed situations when the characters aren't left-handed--especially when the artists use themselves as a reference. The mistake crops up in video games too, but the Zelda series has always been remarkably consistent. (That's why I was so surprised that Ganon from ALttP wielded the Trident in his left hand but subsequent Ganons wielded it in their right--because, after all, each Zelda game has a different Link, but it's always the same Ganon.

(This also applies to Syna's comment.)

~~~ ~~~ ~~~
As a right-handed person I am completely okay with a right-favoring control scheme, though I realize that it may cause problems for left-handers. At least half of my nerdy friends are left-handed, though, and none of them have yet expressed any dismay...

Left-handed people tend to get used to living in a world that doesn't cater to them, and sadly many do not even give conscious thought to the prejudices levied against them--which admittedly are often small in comparison to other social prejudices. I do have a complaint to make about shutting left-handed players out of a game which (supposedly) depends very highly on precision hand coordination, but my primarily complaint is aesthetic.

...and excluding an official Zelda game from canon is just silly, in my opinion, and I don't feel the need to back that opinion up, so don't bother challenging me on it.

See, this is why I made that inappropriate comment yesterday, about you not caring about anything. You don't realize it, but it's insulting to be so dismissive of the things that are important to other people. I'm not really going to exclude the game from canon, like I said, but it's a serious disappointment that they won't be offering a left-handed play mode. Your sympathy is not required, but your dismissiveness is not appreciated.

Lord J Esq

  • Moon Stone J
  • Hero of Time (+5000)
  • *
  • Posts: 5463
  • ^_^ "Ayla teach at college level!!"
    • View Profile
Re: The $%*! frustration thread
« Reply #6334 on: November 09, 2011, 08:16:29 pm »
As for your story about the Texas doctor, rushingwind, that's just plain disgusting. But not surprising. (This assumes that there isn't some big part to the story that I'm missing.) This really ought to teach people not to do conspicuous business in such conservative places. You'll get  burned.

Sajainta

  • Survivor of the Darkness
  • Radical Dreamer (+2000)
  • *
  • Posts: 2004
  • Reporting live from Purgatory.
    • View Profile
Re: The $%*! frustration thread
« Reply #6335 on: November 09, 2011, 09:06:58 pm »
This is a really interesting discussion.  I'm a righty living in a righty world, so I don't notice the discriminations (no matter how small) that lefties face.  I asked D--my favourite southpaw--about this just now, and he gave me this laundry list::

People assume you can't drive a stick shift.
People assume you can't pitch well (D was in Little League).
People assume you can't be talented at anything artistic or craft-sy, since those tools are mostly for right-handers.
He's searched the world over for a spiral-bound notebook for lefties, but he still hasn't been able to find a single one.
Just walk into Staples as a leftie and you'd understand.

He says that after finding out that the new Zelda game won't be leftie-friendly, he probably won't play it.

Katie Skyye

  • Poet of El Nido
  • Acacia Deva (+500)
  • *
  • Posts: 575
  • And you'll never catch her...
    • View Profile
    • Katie Skyye's Deviantart
Re: The $%*! frustration thread
« Reply #6336 on: November 09, 2011, 09:21:11 pm »
...and excluding an official Zelda game from canon is just silly, in my opinion, and I don't feel the need to back that opinion up, so don't bother challenging me on it.
See, this is why I made that inappropriate comment yesterday, about you not caring about anything. You don't realize it, but it's insulting to be so dismissive of the things that are important to other people...Your sympathy is not required, but your dismissiveness is not appreciated.

Hum...I wasn't dismissing anyone's opinions. I was just stating my own. See, I have a lot of opinions that I hold very strongly, but I rarely feel the need to actually back them up. It's enough that I hold them, and I don't need to justify my reasons or my position to anyone. I'm not asking anyone to agree with me, and if you disagree that's nice and it adds to whatever discussion, I guess...
But I probably won't make any effort to argue back unless for some reason I'm feeling particularly fired up that day.
I have my opinions and beliefs and y'all have yours, and whatever I say isn't likely to change what you think, and it's unlikely that anything you say will change the way I think. This is why I don't join discussions very often...though to be honest, I'm trying to be more active on the CC in general, and these places are the best to do it, so maybe that will change.
I guess, I just want to post my opinion, as in, "here's my opinion guys, this is what I think," but as a  general rule I'm not trying to argue with anyone in those cases.

So in this case, I AM being sympathetic. Just because I, personally, am fine with a right-handed control scheme, doesn't mean I don't think it would be BETTER if there were both a right- and left-handed mode or something similar. I am 'dismissing' things that are important to other people only in the sense that they aren't important to me--I don't presume that they aren't important to you or anyone else. I don't consider my worldviews the be-all, end-all and understand that I could be wrong or misguided.
So, I consider my views to be fluid. Just because they're all nicely contained in jars for now doesn't mean that someone might not come along and knock one over or fill one differently, of even upend the table. Just because I hold these opinions now, doesn't mean I'll hold them next year, or even tomorrow. I've changed a lot in my lifetime, and accept that I'll change a lot more. Just because I feel strongly enough NOW about something that I would want to support it...I understand that I may feel differently one day.

And I guess I'm pretty frustrated about being misinterpreted. I try to say things clearly but seemingly always fail in some department...

Also, damnit Texas, stop being so terrible! You're making yourself look bad, and I lived there for 18 years! It's embarrassing!

Also, left-handers should be just fine or better at art since the right side of the brain is the more artistic side and controls the left hand...there's no left-brain interference going through the arm.

Thought

  • Guru of Time Emeritus
  • God of War (+3000)
  • *
  • Posts: 3426
    • View Profile
Re: The $%*! frustration thread
« Reply #6337 on: November 09, 2011, 09:34:36 pm »
Ah, in review, it would seem that indeed my memory about the bow was indeed incorrect. Still, the other two I noted remain.

Link using the hookshot against the water temple boss

Link pushing with is right shoulder (note, you do get to see his left-handed use of the bow here)

Both are particularly interesting. Link is not using the hookshot in combination with his sword: he specifically puts it away when he grabs out his sword, and the reverse is also true. His left hand is right there, he could easily have used it to operate it, but he does not. Nor does he use anything else with the hookshot, insofar as I have been able to find. The fact that I recently moved also means that I am quite familiar with people's tendency to "put their backs into it" with their dominant side: that Link pushes with his right side indicates that his right side is his dominant side.

And then there is the fact that he grabs equipment, such as the ocarina, out from behind his back with his right hand. And reaches into big chests with his right hand first. And when he pulls out the Master sword? Right hand is on top. I would also think that if he was left handed that he'd wear the Goron Bracelet on his right hand (just as a left-hander might wear their watch on their right hand), but that is admittedly far more debatable.

Still, that said, there really is no reason for even Wii Twilight Princess to be right-handed only, and much less for Skyward Sword. Being able to mirror the controls, and in turn the appearance of the game, doesn't seem like that complex of a task.

Katie Skyye

  • Poet of El Nido
  • Acacia Deva (+500)
  • *
  • Posts: 575
  • And you'll never catch her...
    • View Profile
    • Katie Skyye's Deviantart
Re: The $%*! frustration thread
« Reply #6338 on: November 09, 2011, 10:04:03 pm »
Both are particularly interesting. Link is not using the hookshot in combination with his sword: he specifically puts it away when he grabs out his sword, and the reverse is also true. His left hand is right there, he could easily have used it to operate it, but he does not.

Um, it's not entirely relevant, but when aiming (with a Nerf Gun) during HvZ, I noticed that I generally held the gun in my left hand and used my right arm to aim it. In the case of the hookshot, he may 'hold' it on his right arm and use his left hand to aim--not that in-game evidence supports this, it was just interesting to me.

Truthordeal

  • Dimension Crosser (+1000)
  • *
  • Posts: 1133
  • Dunno what's supposed to go here. Oh now I see.
    • View Profile
    • Youtube Account
Re: The $%*! frustration thread
« Reply #6339 on: November 09, 2011, 10:50:04 pm »
ARGH. One line over a one page book review limit. One line. And the real frustration is the temptation of throwing out the last sentence to cut it down and still make everything sound right. But the problem is that I love that last sentence! It's so well-worded and encompasses everything I think was relevant in the subject!

Alas, I must butcher enough of my other prose to make it fit, or cry and cry and end up cutting it out. To work!

Sajainta

  • Survivor of the Darkness
  • Radical Dreamer (+2000)
  • *
  • Posts: 2004
  • Reporting live from Purgatory.
    • View Profile
Re: The $%*! frustration thread
« Reply #6340 on: November 09, 2011, 10:53:36 pm »
D and I are going out to Ohio tomorrow through Sunday to visit friends (yay) and attend his sister's wedding (gag).  Obviously we can't take Draco with us so we agreed a long time ago to give him to some friends for the weekend.  They know that we're dropping him off tomorrow, but they haven't responded to our calls about when tomorrow we're coming to their place.  It's beyond frustrating.  What if we show up tomorrow and no one's there to take Draco?  Ugh.  People, either answer your goddamn calls or call back.

Lord J Esq

  • Moon Stone J
  • Hero of Time (+5000)
  • *
  • Posts: 5463
  • ^_^ "Ayla teach at college level!!"
    • View Profile
Re: The $%*! frustration thread
« Reply #6341 on: November 09, 2011, 11:06:39 pm »
Ah, in review, it would seem that indeed my memory about the bow was indeed incorrect. Still, the other two I noted remain.

Link using the hookshot against the water temple boss

Link pushing with is right shoulder (note, you do get to see his left-handed use of the bow here)

Both are particularly interesting. Link is not using the hookshot in combination with his sword: he specifically puts it away when he grabs out his sword, and the reverse is also true. His left hand is right there, he could easily have used it to operate it, but he does not. Nor does he use anything else with the hookshot, insofar as I have been able to find.

Link's use of the Hookshot and Longshot in his right hand in OoT is an interesting quandary. When I first played OoT, this stood out to me because he did almost everything else in the game with his left hand. At the time I concluded that it must be proper left-handed form, since grappling is a context action that enables the dominant hand to undertake more specific actions. For example, one can hold themselves steady on a boat with their non-dominant hand so that they may pilot with their dominant hand.

But you make a good point about the Hookshot not being used in combination with anything in the game. And, more importantly, subsequent Links used the Hookshot (or its equivalent) in their left hands. There are a number of possible explanations for why the OoT Link would hold it in his right hand. The most satisfying to me is that the original intent was for the game to allow grappling and swordplay at the same time. We know that OoT had a number of gameplay aspirations that it wasn't able to meet (such as horseback combat beyond just the archery). This may have been one of those shortfalls. We know that Link uses his shield in his right hand, and in that sense the Hookshot could be a homologue.

But after a quick google I couldn't find any indication that that is what happened. Another possibility is that they made a creative-level decision (rather than a gameplay one) that he would use it with his right-hand so that his left hand would remain free more often. Still another possibility is that they made a different creative-level decision that the Hookshot, a major piece of equipment, wouldn't fit on his person in a way that would facilitate efficient left-handed use.

The developers were very meticulous with their design and this can't be a mistake, yet that Link is clearly left-handed. I'd love to ask the development team what the truth is! They'd roll their eyes and laugh at their crazy fans. Especially if I had it shipped there and back with UPS Express Critical, which apparently would let me charter a private airplane for the fastest possible delivery.

The fact that I recently moved also means that I am quite familiar with people's tendency to "put their backs into it" with their dominant side: that Link pushes with his right side indicates that his right side is his dominant side.

This, on the other hand, has very little merit. Pushing is another context activity, and heavy pushing relies more on leg power--which would come disproportionately from the side of the body opposite to being pushed. I've done enough heavy moving to know that much. And, in Link's case, pushing with his right side leaves his left side free. Given that his enemies are all around him, that's probably just good sense.

What's strange, though, is that in the video you provide, his pulling actually does take a right-legged stance, since it's the closer leg to the object rather than the farther one which provides the most force. What could this be? Is he left-handed but double-legged? Is there something about pulling which causes him to favor a right-dominant approach? Is this a very rare instance of a subtle art mistake by the developers?

And then there is the fact that he grabs equipment, such as the ocarina, out from behind his back with his right hand. And reaches into big chests with his right hand first.

Indeed, I covered that when I spoke of scripted sequences. I should have covered a clause about trivial actions, and maybe another one for actions which one deliberately undertakes with their non-dominant hand because of a risk to the hand undertaking the action. He probably takes the ocarina in his right hand because it rests on his right side. Reaching into treasure chests is a trivial enough grabbing action, but one that (in a magic world, anyhow), entails risks. It could also simply be that he is only "merely" left-handed rather than extremely so. Some people will go out of their way to favor their dominant hand. Others will use their non-dominant hand for some actions if it is more convenient to do so.

And when he pulls out the Master sword? Right hand is on top.

The resolution on the video is very poor. It looks first like his right hand is on top, and later the left, and also it looks as though the left hand is wrapped around the right. It's not clear enough for me to say what all is happening, and I must admit I never did catch that particular detail! (Bully to you for noticing something on my pet subject which I did not!)

But if you are correct, and his right hand is on top, then that would be correct left-handed form anyway, because the sword is upside down and the "top" hand is actually closer to the pommel of the sword, which is where the non-dominant hand normally would be in a two-handed sword grip. (Of course, one could easily argue that at that point he was merely retrieving the sword from the stone as an object and not holding it as one would hold a sword.) I'm tempted to call this ambiguous to the point of irrelevance.

I would also think that if he was left handed that he'd wear the Goron Bracelet on his right hand (just as a left-hander might wear their watch on their right hand), but that is admittedly far more debatable.

It grants gripping and lifting strength. It makes perfect sense for him to wear it on his dominant hand. (And, for what it's worth, I wear my wristwatch on my left hand. That does require right-handed operation, but it means left-handed use. And, while I might look at my watch a hundred times in a day, I can go for weeks without having to press one of its buttons.)

Still, that said, there really is no reason for even Wii Twilight Princess to be right-handed only, and much less for Skyward Sword. Being able to mirror the controls, and in turn the appearance of the game, doesn't seem like that complex of a task.

I would rather just Link be mirrored, rather than the entire environment, but, yeah...even if mirroring Link would have been prohibitive, mirroring the environment would not have.

~~~ ~~~ ~~~
@ Katie Skyye:

That was thoughtfully said. Thank you for clearing it up. I hope you will not let certain argumentative people whose names entail a letter J spoil your goal of participating more around here.


~~~ ~~~ ~~~
@ Truthordeal:

Just condense the wording of sentences throughout your work. No need to cut an entire line. Or, you may find another line elsewhere that can easily be cut.

Thought

  • Guru of Time Emeritus
  • God of War (+3000)
  • *
  • Posts: 3426
    • View Profile
Re: The $%*! frustration thread
« Reply #6342 on: November 10, 2011, 01:31:05 am »
Interesting that your heavy lifting experience has been different. As far as I've been able to find evidence for, you are unique in that experience, but admittedly that doesn't mean much: the only "evidence" I've been able to find is anecdotal.

While I disagree on the pushing (and on the pulling! That is clearly a left-handed pull), this would be a silly this to spend time debating, especially when I fully admit that Link should be using his left hand for his sword.

However, I do want to comment on the video, because it brings up an interesting note about the game. I watched a few videos, including one of the 3DS remake, and the right is on top first, then the left slides through it as the camera pans. I can only assume that was a glitch in how the objects were interacting with each other. One of the reasons I remember Link's actions so well ("fairly well," I guess... stupid bow) in OoT was that when I first played it I was very impressed at how often they got positioning smack on. Perhaps you recall Link climbing a ladder (he starts with his left foot)? His feet match up with the rungs all the way! That was unheard of in video games at the time.

One final note, to amuse you: Link uses a left handed ocarina. And now, if you will excuse me, I have a certain golden cartridge to dig out.

<.<
>.>

Acacia Sgt

  • Guru of Reason
  • Zurvan Surfer (+2500)
  • *
  • Posts: 2654
  • Forever loyal to the Acacia Dragoons
    • View Profile
Re: The $%*! frustration thread
« Reply #6343 on: November 10, 2011, 01:56:12 am »
Man, why must it be hard to find it. I know it's official Miyamoto stating Link is ambidextrous, but I can't find any reference out of second-hand comments.

But I'll find it somewhere... somewhere... gah...

Synchronization

  • Porrean (+50)
  • *
  • Posts: 66
    • View Profile
Re: The $%*! frustration thread
« Reply #6344 on: November 10, 2011, 09:22:51 pm »
I remember in LttP he would always spin attack in the clockwise direction like a left side dominant batter.