The $%*! frustration thread

[Lord J Esq]

I can't speak for Sajainta, but that's the most awesome thing you've ever suggested on these forums, Ramsus.

@Thought: Damn straight.

[GenesisOne]

So instead of "right", what would be a better word choice?

The euphemism shouldn't be "privilege to work"... unless that was the intention.


On another note...

There's one advantage to having mostly online friends, and it's one that I've never seen anybody here mention as of yet:

They demand less from you.

Sure, you emotionally support them, comfort them after a breakup, maybe even talk them out of a suicide. But knowing someone in cyberspace can also add a whole, long list of demands from them. In this sense, you have much more control in Instant Messenger, or on a forum (like this one), or in MMORPGs.

The problem is you are hard-wired by evolution to need to do things for people. Everybody for the last five thousand years seemed to realize this and then we suddenly forgot it in the last few decades. We get suicidal teens and scramble to teach them self-esteem.  Unfortunately, self-esteem and the ability to like yourself only seems to come AFTER you've done something that makes you likable. You can't kid yourself. If I think John Doe over here is worthless for sitting in his room all day, drinking Pabst and playing video games one-handed because he's whacking off with the other one, what will I think of myself if I do the same thing? (Yes, it's an extreme example, but you get what I'm saying, right?)

You want to break out of that tar-pit of self-hatred? Brush the hair out of your eyes, step away from the computer and buy a nice gift for someone you loathe. Send a card to your worst enemy. Make dinner for your mom and dad or friends. Go clean the leaves out of the gutter. Grow a plant. Do something simple, with a tangible result.

It's not rocket science; you are a social animal and thus you are born with little happiness hormones that are released into your bloodstream when you see a physical benefit to your actions. Think about all those teenagers in their dark rooms, glued to their PC's, turning every life problem into  melodrama. Why do they make those cuts on their arms? It's because making the pain (and subsequent healing) releases endorphins they don't get otherwise. It's pain, but at least it's real.

That form of stress relief via mild discomfort used to be part of our daily lives, our routine of hunting gazelles, gathering berries, climbing rocks and fighting bears. Not anymore. This is why office jobs make so many of us miserable; we don't get any physical, tangible result from our work. But do construction out in the hot sun for two months, and for the rest of your life you can drive past a certain house and say, "Hey, I built that." Maybe that's why mass shootings are more common in offices than construction sites. (It's only a conjectural theory; I don't actually believe that's the reason why)

It's the kind of physical, blue-collar satisfaction that you can only get by turning off the computer, going outdoors and re-connecting with the real world. That feeling, that "I built that" or "I grew that" or "I fed that guy" or "I made these pants" feeling, can't be matched by anything the internet has to offer.

Anyways, that's my take on it.  What says you?
 

[alfadorredux]

I'm probably going to regret posting this, but...my "take" on this is that you've probably never experienced it from the inside. Genuine depression--the kind that leads to suicide--completely saps your energy and motivation. You can't just go out and "do" something: the well inside you from which you should draw the strength to act is so empty that you can barely manage to get out of bed in the morning, and if even the tiniest thing goes wrong, and you think that you're responsible for it, it can take you days to pull yourself together again. Withdrawing means that things are less likely to go wrong, so withdrawing is what you tend to do. It's difficult, almost to the point of impossible, to break out of a depression without help, and the kind of advice you're giving will tend to make things worse, not better.

Tell person to do something -> person can't do it -> further erosion of self-esteem due to failure. It's a simple, ugly cycle, and very difficult to stop once it gets started.

[KebreI]

What the hell? Lord J is one of the most emotional draining and demanding people I have had the privilege to know. A complete slave driver! You have some lax internet buddies.

[GenesisOne]

alf, you're right about me... to a point.

I've been depressed before, but never to the point of being suicidal.  The fact that I was staying inside doing nothing only enhanced my mood, kind of like how humidity enhances the temperature.

Questions: Is the depression you speak about clinical depression or simply the mood of depression?  Did you ever have depression before?  If so, was it naturally occurring or self-induced? (This would explain a lot about what you're talking about)

As for that "well inside you" being empty, the depression is only telling you that it's empty.  That doesn't mean that it is; you're just so depressed that you're only convincing yourself that it is.  Of course belittling yourself over the smallest happenstance of wrongdoing will make things worse.  You're not going to accomplish anything by sitting there feeling miserable about yourself.

Withdrawing may be the lesser of the two proverbial evils, but the existence of such depression is no justification to sink further into despair. <-- Analogy Alert!

It's like writer's block (the likes of which I'm suffering in my screenwriting goals); if I don't keep on writing, the block wins.  Even if its pointless free-thought writing, at least I'm still writing and not surrendering to the block.  Who knows?  Maybe through my pointless writing I may discover an amazing character trait, clever plot device, or even a new story idea, the likes of which I probably would've never found out if I chose to "weather out" my block (have you anybody who's done that yet?).  And the tangible result of my writing is a finished copy of a screenplay, be it the first draft or the tenth.

You can't conquer depression by weathering it out.  You have to take initiative.

 

[ZeaLitY]

Sounds nice and all, but there are cases where depression is caused by serious, biological imbalances in brain chemistry that need medical help. While some sufferers of that might be able to do the impossible and fight the power in the springtime of youth, it'd be brutal to expect them to when they're facing stacked odds due to their own errant biology.

[alfadorredux]

And ZeaLitY has neatly nailed it.

Me, personally? I have dysthymia, which could be described as chronic moderate clinical depression. The reasons are at least partly physiological: I have a serotonin deficiency, exact cause suspected but not known for certain. If I take enough pills, I can do a reasonable imitation of a human being, but I still react badly to certain situations that most people would be able to shrug off.

GenesisOne, the reason why what you said bothered me so much is that, for someone like me, your advice is actively damaging and verges on (unintentional, I'm sure) victim-blaming, and it isn't necessarily easy to tell from the outside whether a person is just in a low mood that might be resolved by your advice, or has a serious problem that needs medical help. (Actually, it isn't always easy to tell from the inside, either--the stigma attached to mental illness is so severe that many people will put a lot of effort into denying that there's anything wrong, even to themselves.)

Part of the point I'm trying to ram home to you is that it is nearly impossible for someone suffering from clinical depression to take the initiative for anything, and the failure to do so when you've been told that you're supposed to feeds back into the depression and makes it worse--the mechanism that breaks this feedback loop in normal people just isn't there, and no amount of well-meaning advice can bring it into being. Believe me, I was hit with a lot of advice of the form, "You should just be able to shrug that off," as though I should have been able to cure myself by an act of will. That's like telling a paraplegic that he should just be able to get out of his wheelchair, because after all, his legs are there, aren't they? The damage that makes them useless is no more visible to an outside observer than depression is.

I was lucky enough to have a family that cared enough about me that, once they figured out what was going on (and it took them more than a decade to do that, even though they did care) they were willing to do most of the work needed to get me on meds for me, because left to myself, I wouldn't have been able to do it even though I knew I needed to. For someone who isn't that lucky, your advice could be the last straw that causes them to take out the gun, load it, stick it in their mouth, and pull the trigger.

[Lord J Esq]

*cracks whip*
*beheads peasants*

Seriously, though, others have made an important point, which is that when you're gripped with a mental illness, such as a depression, your ability to live life normally can be severely impeded. This is a point worth underscoring. I've known a number of people who suffered from these kinds of psychological maladies, and have even had tensions with family members and lost a couple of friends over it. It is every bit as debilitating, and more, as alfadorredux says.

[GenesisOne]

alf, I was referring to the mood of depression in my post, not clinical depression.  Bringing myself up to speed...

Yes, I realize that clinical depression is near impossible to break out of without the help of medications.  I'm sorry if I offended with my advice, but for the record, it's a false analogy to compare my advice to telling a parapelegic to stand up from his wheelchair because he still has his legs.  The challenges that face a parapelegic are much different from the challenges facing one who is clinically depressed.

As for that whole slippery slope that taking my advice will eventually lead to suicide, the fact that you ARE that lucky to have a whole family care about you and your dysthymia speaks volumes about the altruism of humanity.  Unconditional charity shouldn't be a reason to loathe yourself even more.  

These people care about you by magnitudes, and that, along with the medication they provide you, should at least be the booster rocket that will break you out of the atmosphere of depression.  Ultimately, however, the will to conquer your condition lies within yourself.  For you, there IS a way out.  You just need to find that way.

However, if it's your honest opinion that I'm doing more harm than good with my postings about this, I'll stop.

[alfadorredux]

Genesis, I chose the analogy I did deliberately. As I said, the roots of my problem are physical. I am stuck on the meds I am taking for the rest of my life, and they are still not a perfect fix. No matter how much help I get, I will never have the emotional resilience that you take for granted...just like your working legs.

And yes, I do think that the harm your advice could do, in the worst case, outweighs the good it could do. Neither of us has any idea who is reading this or what shape they're in, and this is one area where well-meaning verbal interference really can do damage. Best to leave well enough alone.

[Sajainta]

Late to the conversation, but I read over the posts on depression and I (as someone who has been diagnosed with clinical depression) completely agree with J and alfadorredux.

That is all.

~~~~~

I'm frustrated with this huge head cold that I have.  It's never fun to be the one kid in class who's sniffling and constantly blowing their nose and coughing.  Yuck.

[ZeaLitY]

Made a fucking ton of friends at the conference, but one of the most interesting ones hates Obama and is really religious. Fucking Texas.

The badass I met more than compensates.

[GenesisOne]

I loathe texting with a passion because it's a conduit for miscommunication.  That's the mild way I would put it.  I'd hate to unlock the censorship barrier and let loose on how I really feel about it.

So do we really need a study to tell us that we can reduce miscommunication by 53 percent when it's on a face-to-face basis? Well, apparently there is such a study.

Questions: How many of your friends have you only spoken with online? If a good percent of your personality has gotten lost in the text transition, how well do these people actually know you? The people who dislike you via text, on message boards or chatrooms or whatever; is it because you're honestly incompatible, or is it because of the misunderstood 53 percent? And what about the ones who like you?

One method to make up that difference is in sheer numbers, piling up six dozen friends on Facebook.  Now, don't get me wrong.  Facebook friends are great, but how many of them are like your real-life friends that you hang out with on the weekends and wax nostalgia over your favorite pasttimes?  I can only think of five friends in my life that actually do that, and I do that every week at my friends' houses.  It's done me wonders in figuring them out and building a lasting relationship between all of them, something I've yet to accomplish with texting.

Anyways, that's my take on it.  What says you?

[tripehound]

It's done me wonders in figuring them out and building a lasting relationship between all of them, something I've yet to accomplish with texting.

It depends on the people involved, I suppose. There are many of us, that, in order to have a fulfilling relationship with someone, need to have face-to-face interaction. On the topic of miscommunication, there are many subtleties in communicating in-person that can't be relayed consistently through text: vocal pitch, gestures, facial expressions, etc. It's the lack of these that could be behind a number of the communication issues that Genesis is speaking of.

In my case, I feel I can best convey myself when those subtleties are taken out of the equation. Rather than aid, my non-verbal cues tend to mislead those who aren't intimately familiar with my personality. For example, I can't look someone directly in the eyes when speaking to them. It takes so much effort for me to direct my gaze towards someone's face, and keep it there, that I lose my train of thought when speaking, or fail to entirely comprehend the words spoken by the other person. An average person, unfamiliar with my "quirks," would likely take this as a sign that I'm tuning them out, or that I don't particularly care about the conversation, when the opposite is more likely to be the case.

It's more comfortable, and efficient, for many involved parties if I put my thoughts into text and allow the reader to assign to me their own non-verbal nuances and expressions in lieu of mine.

I should point out, too, that I don't actively engage in high-speed texting as we tend to identify it today, with cell phones, Blackberries, iPhones, etc. I tend to stick to emails and message boards, since I find that txt tlk is teh sux0rz lollolomfg!!!!!1!!1oneone. To me, it's counter-intuitive, as it tends to bring up its own unique set of communication difficulties.

[Zephira]

I've never used 'txt speak', but I do more texting on my phone than actual phone calls. Yes, it can lead to miscommunication, and it is very inappropriate for certain situations (like trying to resolve D&D dramas). On the other end of the spectrum, it is a fast and convenient method of relaying or requesting short bits of information, especially when you're in a situation where you can't talk, or you just don't like talking on the phone.
If you're talking about making friends through phone texting, I've never heard of anyone using it that way. I only text people who I already know, and who I see on a pretty much daily basis (mostly my mom, little brother, and D&D group members). Why would anyone have your phone number if you don't know them, anyway?

If you mean you loathe texting by forum posts, then why are you even here?