Enhasa Halls - Chrono Series Analysis > Magic, Elements, and Technology
Evolution of Mystics
Drumguy074:
Isn't it also possible that mystics are the result of genetic manipulations by Lavos? Lavos could have actually used the reptites as a blueprint of sorts, which might explain why the mystics are so eager to fight the human kingdom of Guardia.
knuck:
I believe mystics are somehow a mutation of elighted ones and animals.
They exist since 12000BC.
YbrikMetaknight:
--- Quote from: Guardian_of_Ages ---Yes, CC refers to it. In Fort Dragonia, first and foremost. But truly...who would take the word of a dragon? They hate humans, so I really don't think that their interpretation of events can be taken as truth.
Secondly, maybe that wasn't the best way to begin an argument, granted. But I was merely commenting on the fact that we cannot use a given as what happened. Actually, gravity is far more proven than evolution is. We see gravity, feel it, measure it, etc. It must be noted, however, that the only empirical evidence that might back up evolution is scattered fossils. Ever notice how they have a hundred of one type of creature, a hundred of another, but when they say one developed into another, they have not a fossil to show for the links in between. This, and the dilemma of irreducable complexity. Don't get me wrong; I'm not against science theories. I'm an engineering student after all; my studies revolve around science. But if Darwin himself didn't fully believe his theory (having said that if there was anything that slightly disproved it, it wouldn't work), I recommend caution in applying it until it does have more proof to back it up. As of yet, it does not have the kind of evidence that warrants it being taught in the way that it is.
Now, in terms of the Chrono universe...when does it explicitly say that it works on the basis of evolution? Granted it says so on the walls of Fort Dragonia...but that's a lie anyway. We know from CT that there were humans with advanced mental thinking skills (Ayla), 65,000,000BC...not 3,000,000BC as that mural says. That is Dragon propoganda; human intelligence had nothing to do with either Lavos or the Frozen Flame. Magic and emotion, according to the library in Zeal in CT, was born of the Dreamstone found by man's ancestors. We can see from Ayla's time that the Dreamstone existed well before Lavos ever arrived, and the victory of humanity over the reptites was achieved before Lavos' arrival.
But anyway, all of this aside, I am not looking at CT/CC from a science fiction perspective, which I think most people usually do, but from a fantasy perspective. The Mystics had a big enough army of their own, I think. Sure, we only see a few dozen sprites, but such are the limitations of a game. If I were to extrapolate the feeling I get of the game, I would think that the Mystic armies were 20,000 strong, and Guardia had a like number to match in their war. Just as I think Zeal must have had a 1,000,000+ population. I think it could be said that they are just from the East, and that is that. It does not require further explanation. They are simply sentient races apart from either the Reptites or Man.
Finally in regards to evolution being guided by Lavos...he WAS taking all of the DNA of the world, but I never remember it being said that he was guiding the development of the planet. Rather, he was bio-engineering a super-creature based on all of the world's creatures DNA.
--- End quote ---
I...no.
The Chrono universe is explicitly based on evolution. Ever beaten CT? Or at the very least made it to the second half of the final battle? Ever done so with, say, Lucca or Robo in your party? I think one of them specifically says something about evolution. Granted, this is only the interpretation of individuals, but do not forget that they are fictional individuals, and therefore incapable of actual thought. The creators of the game had them say those words (and put the Dragonian stuff in CC) for a reason. Obviously evolution in the Chrono universe is intended outright.
Regardless of your opinions on evolution in the real world (and yes, start a thread in GenDisc if you want to debate this, by all means), don't argue against evolution in the context of a fictional game that follows a world where Darwinism clearly applies. It's counterproductive.
As for your argument that we shouldn't use what we're simply given...It's a game. We have nothing but that which the creators of the game give us. Our goal to analyze the series and hopefully make it deeper than what it is now cannot be realized if we don't first use the basis of the original material. This argument too is counterproductive.
Guardian_of_Ages, you need to abandon your opinions about the real world and embrace what's in the games. Once you have done that, feel free to come back here and participate in what I hope are enlightening debates here on our site.
Radical_Dreamer:
--- Quote ---Granted it says so on the walls of Fort Dragonia...but that's a lie anyway.
--- End quote ---
So because the dragons hate the humans anything they say can be disregared as a lie? What do the dragons have to gain by making humans think that the process of evolution occured on their world, if in fact, it didn't? Seems inconsequential.
--- Quote ---...according to the library in Zeal in CT, was born of the Dreamstone found by man's ancestors.
--- End quote ---
Man's ancestors. Not men. Pre-men. I don't think it's too much of a leap to say that this implies evolution taking place.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'll assume that 20,000 strong Mystic army refers to the Medinan army. When they came from "The East" was it a mass migration, or a colonization? I think it is important to understanding why the Mystics went to war under the leadership of a human in a war against humans.
--- Quote ---he WAS taking all of the DNA of the world, but I never remember it being said that he was guiding the development of the planet.
--- End quote ---
In the final confrontation with Lavos, Frog has this to say:
--- Quote ---Reared like farm animals, our lives have been for naught.
--- End quote ---
and
--- Quote ---We haveth our own wills!
--- End quote ---
GrayLensman:
--- Quote from: Guardian_of_Ages ---Secondly, maybe that wasn't the best way to begin an argument, granted. But I was merely commenting on the fact that we cannot use a given as what happened. Actually, gravity is far more proven than evolution is. We see gravity, feel it, measure it, etc. It must be noted, however, that the only empirical evidence that might back up evolution is scattered fossils. Ever notice how they have a hundred of one type of creature, a hundred of another, but when they say one developed into another, they have not a fossil to show for the links in between. This, and the dilemma of irreducable complexity. Don't get me wrong; I'm not against science theories. I'm an engineering student after all; my studies revolve around science. But if Darwin himself didn't fully believe his theory (having said that if there was anything that slightly disproved it, it wouldn't work), I recommend caution in applying it until it does have more proof to back it up. As of yet, it does not have the kind of evidence that warrants it being taught in the way that it is.
--- End quote ---
In this thread, the discussion should be limited to evolution as it applies to the Chrono series. As I stated earlier, I would be happy to debate the validity of evolution in the general discussion forum, but this is like trying to disprove the existence of time travel in Chrono Trigger using general relativity. The creators of the Chrono series can use whatever natural laws they wish, real or not.
--- Quote from: Guardian_of_Ages ---Now, in terms of the Chrono universe...when does it explicitly say that it works on the basis of evolution? Granted it says so on the walls of Fort Dragonia...but that's a lie anyway. We know from CT that there were humans with advanced mental thinking skills (Ayla), 65,000,000BC...not 3,000,000BC as that mural says.
--- End quote ---
True, humans remain relatively unchanged between 65*10^6 BC and the present day, but during that time many new species arise with new characteristics and abilities. There is no need for a fossil record, the travelers can witness the progressive changes to species over time firsthand.
--- Quote from: Guardian_of_Ages ---That is Dragon propoganda; human intelligence had nothing to do with either Lavos or the Frozen Flame. Magic and emotion, according to the library in Zeal in CT, was born of the Dreamstone found by man's ancestors. We can see from Ayla's time that the Dreamstone existed well before Lavos ever arrived, and the victory of humanity over the reptites was achieved before Lavos' arrival.
--- End quote ---
--- Quote ---It all began aeons ago, when man's ancestors picked up a shard of a strange red rock... Its power, which was beyond human comprehension, cultivated dreams... In turn, love and hate were born... Only time will see how it all ends.
--- End quote ---
Dreamstone was responsible for human (and perhaps Reptite) sentience, but there is no mention of it causing magical ability.
--- Quote from: Guardian_of_Ages ---Finally in regards to evolution being guided by Lavos...he WAS taking all of the DNA of the world, but I never remember it being said that he was guiding the development of the planet. Rather, he was bio-engineering a super-creature based on all of the world's creatures DNA.
--- End quote ---
Look no further.
--- Quote ---Robo: Amazing...
It houses all the DNA of every
creature that ever lived...!
Marle: It's...humanoid... It seems like it has collected all of
the vitality from the creatures who
have lived on this planet.
Lucca: Now I understand... It lives on a planet for as long as
possible, stealing away the most vital
resources... It combined the DNA it found here
with its own, and gave birth to those
creatures up on Death Peak. Eventually the young must migrate to
other planets...to repeat the cycle...
Robo: This was Lavos's goal...! Using the DNA of every organism... And achieving the ultimate in evolution!
Frog: This be evil! Indeed! This thing possesseth the
vitality of all living creatures... It hath harvested DNA from animals,
only to further its own evolution!
And whilst sleeping, to boot!
Magus: ...... So...since the dawn of time, it has
slept underground, controlling
evolution on this world for his own
purpose...
Ayla: This smell like Ayla's land!
Reptites, Ptero, Nizbel. Ayla, and
Smell like all people I know!!... Smell of all living things!!
Marle: Are you saying IT'S the
reason we're all here?
Magus: We were created only to be
harvested.
All people... ...and all living things...
Lucca: Grown like farm animals,
waiting to be slaughtered... All of our history...
our art and science...
All to meet the needs of that...
beast...
Frog: It...is too much to bear... We
have been reared like animals...!
Our lives hath been for naught...
--- End quote ---
Lavos did not passively collect DNA samples from already existing life forms. The travelers clearly state that Lavos was responsible for the development of all living things. Lavos changed humans from primitive savages into the dominant life form on the planet, created new species, and doomed others to extinction.
Navigation
[0] Message Index
[#] Next page
Go to full version