Author Topic: Evolution of Mystics  (Read 5666 times)

Drumguy074

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Evolution of Mystics
« on: December 10, 2003, 04:48:03 am »
Isn't it also possible that mystics are the result of genetic manipulations by Lavos?  Lavos could have actually used the reptites as a blueprint of sorts, which might explain why the mystics are so eager to fight the human kingdom of Guardia.

knuck

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Evolution of Mystics
« Reply #1 on: December 10, 2003, 10:50:24 am »
I believe mystics are somehow a mutation of elighted ones and animals.
They exist since 12000BC.

YbrikMetaknight

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Evolution of Mystics
« Reply #2 on: December 15, 2003, 03:51:09 pm »
Quote from: Guardian_of_Ages
Yes, CC refers to it. In Fort Dragonia, first and foremost. But truly...who would take the word of a dragon? They hate humans, so I really don't think that their interpretation of events can be taken as truth.
Secondly, maybe that wasn't the best way to begin an argument, granted. But I was merely commenting on the fact that we cannot use a given as what happened. Actually, gravity is far more proven than evolution is. We see gravity, feel it, measure it, etc. It must be noted, however, that the only empirical evidence that might back up evolution is scattered fossils. Ever notice how they have a hundred of one type of creature, a hundred of another, but when they say one developed into another, they have not a fossil to show for the links in between. This, and the dilemma of irreducable complexity. Don't get me wrong; I'm not against science theories. I'm an engineering student after all; my studies revolve around science. But if Darwin himself didn't fully believe his theory (having said that if there was anything that slightly disproved it, it wouldn't work), I recommend caution in applying it until it does have more proof to back it up. As of yet, it does not have the kind of evidence that warrants it being taught in the way that it is.
Now, in terms of the Chrono universe...when does it explicitly say that it works on the basis of evolution? Granted it says so on the walls of Fort Dragonia...but that's a lie anyway. We know from CT that there were humans with advanced mental thinking skills (Ayla), 65,000,000BC...not 3,000,000BC as that mural says. That is Dragon propoganda; human intelligence had nothing to do with either Lavos or the Frozen Flame. Magic and emotion, according to the library in Zeal in CT, was born of the Dreamstone found by man's ancestors. We can see from Ayla's time that the Dreamstone existed well before Lavos ever arrived, and the victory of humanity over the reptites was achieved before Lavos' arrival.
But anyway, all of this aside, I am not looking at CT/CC from a science fiction perspective, which I think most people usually do, but from a fantasy perspective. The Mystics had a big enough army of their own, I think. Sure, we only see a few dozen sprites, but such are the limitations of a game. If I were to extrapolate the feeling I get of the game, I would think that the Mystic armies were 20,000 strong, and Guardia had a like number to match in their war. Just as I think Zeal must have had a 1,000,000+ population. I think it could be said that they are just from the East, and that is that. It does not require further explanation. They are simply sentient races apart from either the Reptites or Man.
Finally in regards to evolution being guided by Lavos...he WAS taking all of the DNA of the world, but I never remember it being said that he was guiding the development of the planet. Rather, he was bio-engineering a super-creature based on all of the world's creatures DNA.


I...no.

The Chrono universe is explicitly based on evolution.  Ever beaten CT?  Or at the very least made it to the second half of the final battle?  Ever done so with, say, Lucca or Robo in your party?  I think one of them specifically says something about evolution.  Granted, this is only the interpretation of individuals, but do not forget that they are fictional individuals, and therefore incapable of actual thought.  The creators of the game had them say those words (and put the Dragonian stuff in CC) for a reason.  Obviously evolution in the Chrono universe is intended outright.

Regardless of your opinions on evolution in the real world (and yes, start a thread in GenDisc if you want to debate this, by all means), don't argue against evolution in the context of a fictional game that follows a world where Darwinism clearly applies.  It's counterproductive.

As for your argument that we shouldn't use what we're simply given...It's a game.  We have nothing but that which the creators of the game give us.  Our goal to analyze the series and hopefully make it deeper than what it is now cannot be realized if we don't first use the basis of the original material.  This argument too is counterproductive.

Guardian_of_Ages, you need to abandon your opinions about the real world and embrace what's in the games.  Once you have done that, feel free to come back here and participate in what I hope are enlightening debates here on our site.

Radical_Dreamer

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Evolution of Mystics
« Reply #3 on: December 15, 2003, 03:57:04 pm »
Quote
Granted it says so on the walls of Fort Dragonia...but that's a lie anyway.


So because the dragons hate the humans anything they say can be disregared as a lie? What do the dragons have to gain by making humans think that the process of evolution occured on their world, if in fact, it didn't? Seems inconsequential.

Quote
...according to the library in Zeal in CT, was born of the Dreamstone found by man's ancestors.


Man's ancestors. Not men. Pre-men. I don't think it's too much of a leap to say that this implies evolution taking place.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'll assume that 20,000 strong Mystic army refers to the Medinan army. When they came from "The East" was it a mass migration, or a colonization? I think it is important to understanding why the Mystics went to war under the leadership of a human in a war against humans.

Quote
he WAS taking all of the DNA of the world, but I never remember it being said that he was guiding the development of the planet.


In the final confrontation with Lavos, Frog has this to say:

Quote
Reared like farm animals, our lives have been for naught.


and

Quote
We haveth our own wills!

GrayLensman

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Evolution of Mystics
« Reply #4 on: December 15, 2003, 04:34:37 pm »
Quote from: Guardian_of_Ages
Secondly, maybe that wasn't the best way to begin an argument, granted. But I was merely commenting on the fact that we cannot use a given as what happened. Actually, gravity is far more proven than evolution is. We see gravity, feel it, measure it, etc. It must be noted, however, that the only empirical evidence that might back up evolution is scattered fossils. Ever notice how they have a hundred of one type of creature, a hundred of another, but when they say one developed into another, they have not a fossil to show for the links in between. This, and the dilemma of irreducable complexity. Don't get me wrong; I'm not against science theories. I'm an engineering student after all; my studies revolve around science. But if Darwin himself didn't fully believe his theory (having said that if there was anything that slightly disproved it, it wouldn't work), I recommend caution in applying it until it does have more proof to back it up. As of yet, it does not have the kind of evidence that warrants it being taught in the way that it is.


In this thread, the discussion should be limited to evolution as it applies to the Chrono series.  As I stated earlier, I would be happy to debate the validity of evolution in the general discussion forum, but this is like trying to disprove the existence of time travel in Chrono Trigger using general relativity.  The creators of the Chrono series can use whatever natural laws they wish, real or not.

Quote from: Guardian_of_Ages
Now, in terms of the Chrono universe...when does it explicitly say that it works on the basis of evolution? Granted it says so on the walls of Fort Dragonia...but that's a lie anyway. We know from CT that there were humans with advanced mental thinking skills (Ayla), 65,000,000BC...not 3,000,000BC as that mural says.


True, humans remain relatively unchanged between 65*10^6 BC and the present day, but during that time many new species arise with new characteristics and abilities.  There is no need for a fossil record, the travelers can witness the progressive changes to species over time firsthand.

Quote from: Guardian_of_Ages
That is Dragon propoganda; human intelligence had nothing to do with either Lavos or the Frozen Flame. Magic and emotion, according to the library in Zeal in CT, was born of the Dreamstone found by man's ancestors. We can see from Ayla's time that the Dreamstone existed well before Lavos ever arrived, and the victory of humanity over the reptites was achieved before Lavos' arrival.


Quote
It all began aeons ago, when man's ancestors picked up a shard of a strange red rock... Its power, which was beyond human comprehension, cultivated dreams... In turn, love and hate were born... Only time will see how it all ends.


Dreamstone was responsible for human (and perhaps Reptite) sentience, but there is no mention of it causing magical ability.

Quote from: Guardian_of_Ages
Finally in regards to evolution being guided by Lavos...he WAS taking all of the DNA of the world, but I never remember it being said that he was guiding the development of the planet. Rather, he was bio-engineering a super-creature based on all of the world's creatures DNA.


Look no further.

Quote
Robo: Amazing...
It houses all the DNA of every
creature that ever lived...!

Marle: It's...humanoid... It seems like it has collected all of
the vitality from the creatures who
have lived on this planet.

Lucca: Now I understand... It lives on a planet for as long as
possible, stealing away the most vital
resources... It combined the DNA it found here
with its own, and gave birth to those
creatures up on Death Peak. Eventually the young must migrate to
other planets...to repeat the cycle...

Robo: This was Lavos's goal...! Using the DNA of every organism... And achieving the ultimate in evolution!

Frog: This be evil! Indeed! This thing possesseth the
vitality of all living creatures... It hath harvested DNA from animals,
only to further its own evolution!
And whilst sleeping, to boot!

Magus: ...... So...since the dawn of time, it has
slept underground, controlling
evolution on this world for his own
purpose...


Ayla: This smell like Ayla's land!
Reptites, Ptero, Nizbel. Ayla, and
Smell like all people I know!!... Smell of all living things!!

Marle: Are you saying IT'S the
reason we're all here?

Magus: We were created only to be
harvested.
All people... ...and all living things...

Lucca: Grown like farm animals,
waiting to be slaughtered... All of our history...
our art and science...
All to meet the needs of that...
beast...

Frog: It...is too much to bear... We
have been reared like animals...!
Our lives hath been for naught...


Lavos did not passively collect DNA samples from already existing life forms.  The travelers clearly state that Lavos was responsible for the development of all living things.  Lavos changed humans from primitive savages into the dominant life form on the planet, created new species, and doomed others to extinction.

ZeaLitY

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Evolution of Mystics
« Reply #5 on: December 15, 2003, 07:18:24 pm »
Keep in mind that an entire room in Chronopolis is dedicated to the evolution of the human brain.

Daniel Krispin

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Evolution of Mystics
« Reply #6 on: December 16, 2003, 02:08:07 am »
Ah, sorry guys. Don't take what I say quite so seriously. My style lends itself to sounding serious, even in forum posts, but I'm not quite that ardent about it. I merely try to reconcile my liking of the Chrono universe with my love of high fantasy, which I hold in very high regard. Not quite the direction most Chrono fans go, I realize, and makes me a little different. As a result it is very difficult for me to think of Chrono things in terms of evolution and such any more, though I realize fully that having that as a basis was the original intent of the game makers. I can only defend myself by saying that most of the theories are not what they had intended either, and is simply a personal interpretation of the events.
Regardless, I still think, evolution or not, that the Dragons do lie. That was their version of history, and is tainted by their hatred of humans. I did not take this as the sole basis for that comment, however. What I thought was that Ayla seemed quite intelligent, being only less intelligent by being raised in an unadvanced age; had she been brought up in the future, she would have been no less intelligent than Crono. At the very least her mind is far more advanced than the Dragons would account to humans in their murals. So if humans do evolve, it is natural, and they are simply misunderstood by the Dragons. Not unexpected, however. The humans base their technology in skill, the Dragons in the power of the earth. This creates a natural enimity between the two races. Remember, the Reptites and humans were at war already long before Lavos arrived. I don't remember Azala's appraisal of humankind all that friendly. Naturally I don't expect her descendents, from a city ripped from its own dimension only to find all of its race surplanted by their ancient enemies, to take to kindly to these "apes". On this basis, I would say that the Dragons lie. Humanity is every bit as natural as Dragons. It was not till the experimentation with the Frozen Flame in Chronopolis that they fell under the thrall of Lavos.
Now, in regards to the final battle, and all the comments the characters make...I never thought any of those referred to evolution, even the first time I played the game. He indeed took all the DNA...that was his purpose in his long parasitic sleep, was it not? To gain power and absorb the essence of all the beings? When Frog says that they have been raised as "animals for the slaughter", or whatever he says, why does that mean that Lavos has guided evolution? It simply means that their only purpose in the last 65,000,000 years, pending the destruction of the earth, was to provide the neccessary DNA. If evolution has occurred, it has been natural, and Lavos has only watched by with an evil eye on lordship over the earth, biding his time.
Also, I do think that the dreamstone gave birth to magic. The red knife, after all, is magical. Is it not then feasable that it was from this hallowed stone from which both the greatest sword and the Mammon machine were forged that magic came to humanity?
But here is a theory that combines both what the Dragons say and what is said in Zeal in the library. Is it not possible that the source for the evolution of the human mind in CT was not of the Frozen Flame, but rather the Dreamstone? It does say in Zeal that it was from this that hopes and dreams, which are higher levels of thought, are born. This seems to confirm, along with the fact that Ayla too has hopes and dreams, that it was not the Frozen Flame, but rather the Dreamstone that hyper-evolved humanity. But the Dreamstone is a natural part of the earth, so this is not, as the Dragons would say, an unnatural evolution. It is the guiding force of fate, which could in the Chrono universe be construed as the will of the planet.
In this respect, I am unsure where Mystics fall. They are not Reptites, that is sure. Maybe the Heckran is, but certainly the gargoyles and trolls are not. They could not have evolved from the Reptites either; this would counter one of the basic premises of evolution: survival of the fittest. Were the Mystics one race, this may have been possible. But they are no less than a dozen races, so evolution is not the key to their origin. They would have killed each other off for supremacy. What remains then? Perhaps they are simply a race born of magic, or even of the will of the earth. Just as in Greek mythology, where Gaia gives birth to the Giants to storm Olympus, perhaps their origin lies in such magical realms.

ZeaLitY

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Evolution of Mystics
« Reply #7 on: January 31, 2004, 01:58:14 am »
The most accepted theory now is that Lavos created the Mystics through manipulation of normal animals and the infusing of the Magic Trait; later, these magically abilitated animals were adapted for work and guarding by the civilization of Zeal.

funi30y

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Evolution of Mystics
« Reply #8 on: February 04, 2004, 04:09:33 am »
wait a sec... assuming that humans gained their intelligence from dreamstone, why not the mystics too?  While i'm not sure where they would get the dreamstone if humans evolved that way, why not them too?  Once again, this is assuming they did evolve from that, which is not quite proven.  The Reptites were clearly capable of higher thought, even if most of their thoughts were focused on killing the humans.  They also were clearly the elder race, having seen humans come from apes to mammals of higher thought.  Can it be thought that all races achieved higher order thinking from dreamstone?  Also, i believe it was guardian_of_ages that pointed out that the mystics aren't exactly a race so much as a motley collection of many different races.  That is pretty hard to explain but i suppose one could guess that the many different races formed a strong alliance, probably to fight the rising threat of humans.  I personally believe that lavos wasn't the catalyst of evolution, but merely chose what path it may or may not take.  
It is hard to know much about the mystics, because we do not know when they came to be, or how their culture worked before Magus arrived, because after he did their entire culture revovled around him.  Which leads to interesting thoughts...but ones that are probably crazy because of my lack of sleep.  That gives me the idea that Magus caused the mystics to exist but that seems a little far fethced...i'll have to research that one a little.

I haven't posted much but i have read through many different threads and discussions but if i am missing anything important and obvious that this compendium has already proven feel free to point them out to me.

ZeaLitY

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Evolution of Mystics
« Reply #9 on: February 04, 2004, 09:39:37 am »
Quote from: Fort Dragonia
The land became full of all
kinds of creatures. Among these, the dragon lizards and the more evolved Reptites
thought they would reign over the earth forever.


So it appears that the Reptites were more evolved than the apes. This confirms that it was the Frozen Flame that evolved humans:

Quote from: Fort Dragonia
However, the timid "apes" who had lived
hidden in the forests... ...came into contact with the crimson flame that fell from
the sky, and evolved into "humans." Or perhaps it was not "evolution," but
"transformation." In this way, humans increased in number and filled the earth...
The fearsome "progeny of Lavos" who, like their progenitor, began to devour our
mother planet.


Quote from: Chronopolis
The
anthroped brain enlarged at an accelerated pace until it became the human brain we know.
Could the reason for the abnormal development of the human brain be the biological
contamination caused by Lavos?

Sentenal

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Evolution of Mystics
« Reply #10 on: February 22, 2005, 11:09:41 pm »
in terms of the Mystics, I think the only part of the world they did control was Medina, not any "mother country".  Proof for this can be seen just by flying the epoch around the planet.  you can do a complete 360 of the planet, seeing all its lands, cities, etc, but never a Mystic-homeland.  Another set of proof is the scene where Lavos is destroying the planet.  The guy watching the screne mentions all the major cities, including Medina, but never any other city that my have been the Mystic homeland.

Magus was probably made the way he is (pointy ears, pale) because of the use of Shadow Magic.  Normal Magic in itself probably doesnt mutate, because many of the people of Zeal seem perfectly normal, and use magic regualarly.

But Mystics being created, or mutated, or whatever, by the people of Zeal seems most likey to me, such as the guards on the Mountain of Woe, and the monsters you fight in the Ocean Palace and Black Omen.

ChronoMagus

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Evolution of Mystics
« Reply #11 on: January 18, 2006, 09:53:51 pm »
I believe that they are indeed creations by the Zealots (Zealians just does not sound correct).  They were brought up with hate and malice, originally designed to fight for the Queen.  Think of it, the Enlightened Ones cannot fight if all they do is dream.  The Earthbound Ones possess no skill what so ever.  Create a mutant race possibly via Lavos to defend for you.  As time passed though the Mystics probably hated the Zealots.  Under the Zealot rule they are all constrained into specific areas.  Meanwhile they are much more rampant in post-Zeal rule.

Tonjevic

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« Reply #12 on: January 18, 2006, 10:56:24 pm »
But Zealian is correct. Referring to a nationality or ethnicity, the suffix ian is generally added. A zealot is a person who fllows something with much fervour and Zeal, to the point of extremism. I think...

Zaperking

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« Reply #13 on: January 19, 2006, 04:31:11 am »
Nu always seemed like a mystic to me...

Also, I doubt Zeal ever did genetic engineering. That's not what Zeal is about. Zeal is about enlightenment, and dreams. Why the hell would anyone dream up a mutation.. That's something more sci-fi.

Also, Magus' use of Shadow Magic cannot be blamed for his looks, since in RD, he still uses it, but he is described by Serge as being "handsome" and having a very beautiful face etc.

Tonjevic

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Evolution of Mystics
« Reply #14 on: January 19, 2006, 04:38:02 am »
Nu arent mystic, simply because we never see any Nu anywhere NEAR the mystcs. In the era in which you meet mystics,  you only ever see one Nu.
And that is on a cliff looking out into the distance untill you scare him; Nothing whatsoever to do with mystics.