Author Topic: Fixing the Grandfather Paradox  (Read 1749 times)

RedStar

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Fixing the Grandfather Paradox
« on: July 06, 2008, 04:38:49 am »
If we believe that there is such a thing as Time Traveler's Immunity and Time Bastard we find ourselves with a sticky situation explaining how Marle can suffer from the Grandfather Paradox.  I believe I have an answer.  It's not an amazing one but it's still an idea.  In this theory I'll allow the Entity to have decided what time period to have sent Marle back to (creating a situation which would set off a chain of events to save the planet) but I'll explain in a moment why I believe that the Pendant was the cause for the Telepod to transport her through time and not the Entity as some believe.

I can think of 5 ways a person can go backwards in time in Chrono Trigger.

1. Marle's Pendant.  It sent Marle and Crono back in time.
2. The Gate Key.  It's the device through which time travel is done for the most part of in the game until you get the Epoch.
3. The Epoch.  Balthazar's creation that can go to any time period you have accessed.
4. A gate created by Lavos.  Lavos transported people through time at the Ocean Palace and at Magus's Castle.
5. The Time Crash.  Chronopolis was sent back in time but unlike other forms of time travel this affected a large 3 dimensional area and as pointed out in an article on this site, the area didn't travel but those 3 dimensional coordinates pointed to different time coordinates at the same 3 dimensional location. 

Marle's time travel situation was actually different than Crono's.  Crono traveled back in time with the Pendant whereas Marle was sent back because of it.  Does that make any difference?  I believe so.  I believe that the five examples I just listed are different than what Marle experienced.  I also believe that Time Traveler's Immunity doesn't just happen to you because you travel through time.  I'll first explain why I don't believe Marle could experience a Grandfather Paradox because of any of the five examples I listed.

First off, the Time Crash.  Going to Chronopolis would not send her backwards in time.  Going there would send her to a place that really hasn't been sent back in time, just the coordinates for it point to a different time than it should be in (this is based on an article here on the Compendium).  Marle cannot go back in time here and create a Grandfather Paradox.

Secondly, Gate Keys.  I don't know how they really work or why, but they do.  That said, anyone who uses them receives the Time Traveler's Immunity.  If you use the Gate Key or are with someone that uses it then you won't experience the Grandfather Paradox.  Time/nature has a way of balancing things out (like getting rid of extra copies of people for instance) which means that somehow it takes note of you when you travel through time.  The Gate Key is a way for time/nature to take note of you.  My reasoning for this is when you go to The End of Time there are portals there but after you use a gate more portals appear.  You can be sent back through a portal you have been through which means that somehow time/nature keeps track of where you have been.  Thus you are granted immunity from the effects of time travel.  I also think the Gate Key might be made out of Dreamstone but there's no way of knowing.  I'll get to why I think that it being made of Dreamstone would be important in a moment.

Thirdly, gates created by Lavos.  They usually send people forwards in time, but when Lavos appears at Magus's Castle it sends Magus and the Chrono Crew back in time and apparently to different time periods.  The Crew had a Gate Key so Magus might have been under the effect of traveling with the key.  Magus may have been sent to the same time period as the others and woken up before they were found and taken to the village.  Then again he may have been sent to a different time period and might not have been under the effect of the key.  He changes his own history by appearing as The Prophet and having an effect (even minimal) to his past self.  That would cause the future Janus to be different, thereby sending Magus to the Darkness Beyond Time.  I think there's an answer to that too.  Lavos seems to exist in a Pocket Dimension, kind of living outside the normal confines of time.  Traveling through a gate that Lavos created would give one Time Traveler's Immunity.  I'll explain why that would give you immunity in a moment as well.

Fourth up is the Epoch.  Once again hell if I understand the mechanics of the machine, they're not explained in the game.  Anyways, it's possible that the Epoch could send you to any time period you wanted but since that's beyond the ability of a game, you can only go to the time periods you've been to as well as the Day of Lavos.  It makes more sense that the Epoch would be limited to its destinations in time because the Neo-Epoch seems to have the ability to go to any time, and an upgrade like that would make it worthy of the name Neo-Epoch.  One additional way it would make sense that the Epoch is limited to the time periods you've been to would be if the Epoch could somehow determine where you have been (I think Star Trek: Voyager has talked about being able to read what time period someone's from) and then go there.  Maybe there are special materials that go into making the Epoch (like maybe Dreamstone helps it travel through time).  Does someone who uses the Epoch automatically receive Time Traveler's Immunity?  I'm actually not sure.  If the Epoch utilizes something like Dreamstone to help it travel through time, then I think so.  We can't know this for sure since everyone who rides the Epoch has either used the Gate Key already or has been sent through time because of Lavos so we don't have a "pure" subject to test it on.  I do think there's a good chance it would give you immunity because we see people from other time periods at the end of the game (explaining why they're there is a whole other topic, I personally think it's possible they were picked up before Lavos was beaten, giving them immunity to the effects of defeating Lavos, and therefore someone like Doan could go back in time to be at the fair).

The fifth and final thing is the Pendant.  It is made out of Dreamstone, a special material used to create some of the most important items in the game: the Pendant, the Mammon Machine, and the Masamune.  The Mammon Machine was created to commune with Lavos who doesn't interact with time normally.  If Lavos does indeed exist inside a pocket dimension then Dreamstone must have some interesting temporal qualities.  This is given more credibility when you think about how the whole adventure started.  Marle, wearing the Pendant made of Dreamstone stepped inside a machine designed to relocate a person's spacial coordinates.  The temporal qualities of the Pendant caused the machine to relocate Marle's temporal coordinates instead since she wound up in the same spacial location.  The Entity, perhaps aware of what would happen, and having created gates for the heroes to use, decided what time period to send her to.

Now to tie everything together.  I believe that traveling through a gate with an item with temporal qualities or travleing through a gate caused by something with temporal qualities grants one Time Traveler's Immunity.  The Pendant is made of Dreamstone which appears to have temporal qualities since it can commune with Lavos who apparently exists in a Pocket Dimension.  Crono had the Pendant with him when he went back in time and when the timeline was changed because of the disappearance of Marle's ancestor (which would have changed Crono's history and therefore changed Crono and would have sent him to the Dimension Beyond Time if the didn't have immunity) he wasn't affected.  After Lucca created the Gate Key (which has apparent temporal qualities because it can manipulate gates but might possibly be made of Dreamstone) anyone who traveled with them never had to worry about disappearing because of their actions in the past.  Lavos has temporal qualities and created a gate which sent Magus into the past.  The Epoch might have temporal qualities since it can travel through time on its own without the need of a gate.  It apparently just needs to know the time periods the people piloting it have been to in order to know what time periods it can go to.  I also think it makes sense if Dreamstone somehow powered that time travel mechanism, but there's no way to know that.

That leaves us with Marle who was sent back in time because of the Pendant but did not travel with it.  She is the one case in which someone went backwards in time and was not with something with temporal qualities or was sent back by Lavos who has temporal qualities.  She's also the only person to experience the Grandfather Paradox.

Two quick things of note: Even though we changed the events in Zeal it still had the same outcome.  In the original history it makes sense that Frog would have found the missing queen at the Cathedral anyways.  Frog would have found a way to have conquered Magus in the original timeline because we are told he was defeated.  We helped Ayla but the dinosaurs in the past still would have died out after Lavos hit the Earth.  Simply put: events still had the same results after we went back in time.  I don't think the creators of the game expected us to believe that going back in time and trying to change things that ended with the same result as before would cause the original timeline to be sent to the Darkness Beyond Time because a few protons and electrons are out of place because of our presence.

Also I think it's pretty interesting to note that all time travel done without a Gate Key (assuming it's not made of Dreamstone) or futuristic technology (the Epoch and whatever was used in the Time Crash) was done in the presence of Dreamstone.  The Pendant at the beginning, Mammon Machine at the Ocean Palace, and the Masamune at Magus's Castle.

Sorry it's such a long post, let me know if you can think of anything that might confirm or contradict my ideas.

killercactus

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Re: Fixing the Grandfather Paradox
« Reply #1 on: November 06, 2008, 03:52:06 pm »
I like your thinking on this..... but I'm not sure Marle is the only person / thing that is affected by the Grandfather Paradox.  I think (and no one is sure, because we don't know a ton about the Dead Sea) that Chronopolis was affected by the Grandfather Paradox - with the result being the Dead Sea.

What Kato has said about the Dead Sea (and what Miguel says) is that it exists because Serge's survival brings back into existence the destroyed future.  If Lavos destroys the future in 1999, Chronopolis is never built.  Therefore it can't be pulled back during the Time Crash, therefore it doesn't exist in 1020 AD Home World, hence the Dead Sea.  Sounds like the Grandfather Paradox to me.

I wrote up a little theory on Marle and the Dead Sea, and how each are affected by the Grandfather Paradox when nothing else is, because their methods of travel were different from the others in the game - much like you described.  I also postulated that Dreamstone had something to do with it - mainly that it's temporal qualities may have been what caused the Time Crash (or allowed Belthasar to cause the Time Crash).  What I wrote is in the Marle's Disappearance thread - check it out.

V_Translanka

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Re: Fixing the Grandfather Paradox
« Reply #2 on: November 06, 2008, 07:55:13 pm »
While I understand the theory, I don't know if I like how it's proposed...The idea that Marle is effected by the paradox because she doesn't have a key (or a part of a key) makes sense...Though I don't think the Pendant itself is what opened the Gate. It was the combination of the Pendant & the Telepod (which is the basis for the Gate Key)...whether or not the Entity used that specific combination of situations and made a Gate there to be opened is debatable, but I think that makes sense...

As to why she didn't travel with the Pendant, there are several possibilities...Like Lucca says, perhaps you just have to hold on to the Pendant itself, where Marle simply had it around her neck...Another possibility is the earlier run-in (HA!) with Crono & her subsequently dropping the Pendant broke it's latch and her jolt by the Telepod simply caused it come off of her.

Personally, I think the main thing is just that Lucca is wrong & no Grandfather Paradox takes place at all. The Entity steps in and displaces Marle so that Crono (& Lucca!) continue their adventure (& learn about Magus along the way)...

As for the Epoch, I think that the times were preset by Belthasar, who foresaw everything and everywhere that the heroes would need to go. His notes prior to the entrance to his Wings of Time seem to glint the fact that he knows more than perhaps he should...and then, of course, there's all the crazy similar crap he pulls off in Chrono Cross...

Thought

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Re: Fixing the Grandfather Paradox
« Reply #3 on: November 07, 2008, 11:11:22 am »
I'm of the opinion that the Pendant itself is what choose to stay behind after Marle was sent through the gate. There is a thread around here somewhere that goes into that indepth, but to sum it up: we know that the pendant has a mind of its own (after the Ocean Palace incident it sought out and clung to the party). Since there doesn't seem to be much of a reason for Marle to drop the pendant, it seems more likely that the pendant "dropped" Marle, given that it had a mind that allowed it to act. The intelligence behind the pendant is most likely Doreen.

Which really doesn't address the grandfather paradox, but...

Tiammat

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Re: Fixing the Grandfather Paradox
« Reply #4 on: November 07, 2008, 01:38:42 pm »
Nice theory. Great thinking. I read it all.

Your theory made me think and i have a question.

When Magus goes back in time and become the Prophet, why little Janus didn't disappear?

Wouldn't Time Bastard discard Janus since Magus was back?

killercactus

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Re: Fixing the Grandfather Paradox
« Reply #5 on: November 07, 2008, 02:11:15 pm »
Time Bastard, if I understand it correctly, would not discard Janus until the point in time that Janus originally left 12000 BC (i.e., the Ocean Palace disaster).  I believe in the game, this does actually happen.

Tiammat

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Re: Fixing the Grandfather Paradox
« Reply #6 on: November 07, 2008, 08:04:54 pm »
Indeed... Janus would disappear only in the Ocean Palace incident...

Thanks for the answer.
« Last Edit: November 07, 2008, 08:08:16 pm by Tiammat »

Thought

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Re: Fixing the Grandfather Paradox
« Reply #7 on: November 10, 2008, 10:22:32 am »
I believe in the game, this does actually happen.

Maybe. Janus and Melchior get sucked into gates, but where these gates take them is unknown. Admittedly, before finding the Compendium, I always thought Janus and Melchior getting sucked into gates was time preserving itself; they had to be sucked to 600 and 1000 AD, respectively, because they already had. Such doesn't quite fit in with my understanding of the game now, however.

V_Translanka

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Re: Fixing the Grandfather Paradox
« Reply #8 on: November 10, 2008, 04:02:30 pm »
I forget, what's the exact quote that says Janus & Melchior get sucked into gates...Does it say gates? Something appeared and sucked them away? Did they just disappear? I'm fairly sure it does say something like you say, but I just can't remember...

Thought

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Re: Fixing the Grandfather Paradox
« Reply #9 on: November 10, 2008, 05:00:28 pm »
Quote from:  NA translation
ELDER: When the disaster struck, an
   eerie, black portal materialized.
   Melchior tried to save Janus, but he
   was also dragged in.

Lucca: A black portal?     
   A GATE!!!

Robo: A black portal     
   No doubt, a Gate made by Lavos!

Frog: A black portal?     
   A GATE!!!

Ayla: A black portal?
   Like one we step thru?

The retranslation basically says the same thing.

V_Translanka

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Re: Fixing the Grandfather Paradox
« Reply #10 on: November 10, 2008, 07:53:23 pm »
Strange that Lavos would do such a thing...I mean, aren't Janus & Melchior in the Earthbound village? Why would Lavos single them out like that? From what the Elder says, it even seems as though he was only after Janus and that Melchior got hit in the crossfire trying to save him...Could it be because of what Magus did against Lavos? Though then why not just do it to Magus himself? Very odd...Unless Robo is wrong and it wasn't Lavos (though it appears as though the other black gates were made by Lavos as well)...

Thought

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Re: Fixing the Grandfather Paradox
« Reply #11 on: November 11, 2008, 10:23:45 am »
That is one of the problems with the game; what the characters know isn't always an accurate reflection of reality. Might be Lavos, or it might be a gate sucking Janus into the DBT, or it might be the Entity trying to preserve the timeline, or it might be Magus' own badassness that prevents there from being two of him in existence, etc etc.

Xenterex

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Re: Fixing the Grandfather Paradox
« Reply #12 on: November 18, 2008, 02:50:49 pm »
Quote

Strange that Lavos would do such a thing...I mean, aren't Janus & Melchior in the Earthbound village? Why would Lavos single them out like that?

If Lavos has a degree of sentience, then perhaps this is a way oh him lashing out against Melchoir.  Melchoir does use dreamstone to create instruments that have an effect on Lavos such that he had to reveal himself to destroy Zeal, and he throws Melchoir/Janus away in time to ensure they won't be there to rebuild Zeal. 

Quote
it seems more likely that the pendant "dropped" Marle, given that it had a mind that allowed it to act. The intelligence behind the pendant is most likely Doreen

funny thing to note that after this point in the game, it's referred to as "Crono's pendant"  or "the pendant that Chrono had."  the one dialogue exception may be, if I remember right, if Marle's in Zeal when Schala opens a door, and comments on how it looks like her pendant.  Another interesting thought I just had, if Crono's been wearing the pendant since he put it on at the fair and up until he dies in Zeal, that means he had it on at the Trial,  and nobody at the trial noticed.  Seems they're content with that he at least gave the pendant back once >.>

Quote
Frog would have found a way to have conquered Magus in the original timeline because we are told he was defeated.

I think here, some of us presume that Magus' actually doesn't get interfered with at all and completes his summon of Lavos and is then either drained of power, or killed.  Glenn probably doesn't muster up the courage to face Magus without a repaired Masamune, otherwise he'd probably have an honorable mention in time without Crono's tampering.

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Re: Fixing the Grandfather Paradox
« Reply #13 on: November 19, 2008, 04:01:47 am »
Another interesting thought I just had, if Crono's been wearing the pendant since he put it on at the fair and up until he dies in Zeal, that means he had it on at the Trial,  and nobody at the trial noticed.  Seems they're content with that he at least gave the pendant back once >.>

Yeah, but they also lock him up with all of his weapons, armor & other items...I think it's safe to say that they didn't look through his possessions at all when they put Crono behind bars...