Author Topic: This sucks...  (Read 3161 times)

Kanadyets

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Re: This sucks...
« Reply #15 on: June 11, 2007, 04:31:04 am »
Wow, female gamers!  I'm sure such a statement must seem ignorant, and with all due respect to Kyronea's logical assertion that there should be some around, I find that female gamers are few and far between.  Further, girls that enjoy good games (read: RPGs) are even more of a rarity, let alone self-professed fangirls.  I'm not sure if it's different in other parts of the world (though I assume it is) but gaming is pretty much dominated by guys where I am.  Heck, now that I think of it, I believe I only know one, personally.

Kyronea

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Re: This sucks...
« Reply #16 on: June 11, 2007, 04:53:13 am »
There's a very good reason for that too: game companies cater to men, or rather, to those of us men who are more...juvinile when it comes to our sexual interests. Just take a look at the typical garb of a female in any game, say, Tekken. They tend to wear horribly inpratical clothing for their choice of occupation just because it makes them look "sexier." A lot of this rampent, if subtle, sexism pervades games, though it tends to pervade Japanese games far more often than Western games due to the sexism still somewhat ingrained into the culture there.

As such, any self-respecting female is going to look down upon this heavily and be turned off of games somewhat. It doesn't help that our own socities tend to push females towards the more "typically feminine" interests.

I'm hoping that as gaming progresses we'll see plenty more female gamers. We could certainly use plenty of them, at least.

Kanadyets

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Re: This sucks...
« Reply #17 on: June 11, 2007, 05:54:38 am »
And now to play devil's advocate...
I wouldn't say that the degree of sexuality portrayed in the games you mention necessarily denotes a juvenile attitude.  I'm not saying I enjoy Tekken (and I think the DoA series is an even better example in this case), and I do agree that the women are portrayed in a ridiculous fashion, but I would argue that the majority of men of just about any age or level of maturity like attractive women.  Is it necessary to have them dressed in Daisy Dukes and tube tops?  Absolutely not.  Is it reasonable that many men will find it appealling?  Without a doubt.  Now, of course, this says nothing about reasonable expectations regarding beauty versus societal demands and representations, but that's a whole other matter which I'm not about to get into.

Now as far as the issue of women being portrayed in an overtly sexual manner in a majority of video games, I think one need not go far to find sensibly designed female characters.  Let's look at Chrono Trigger.  We have the firey, independent-minded Marle, the super-genius Lucca, and the ultra-strong, progressive (give her a break, she's from 65 million years ago) Ayla.  Now I'll grant that she's scantily clad, but I think it's in keeping with the prehistoric motif.  If the prehistoric character was male, he'd probably be all bulging muscles and a loin cloth.  One might argue Kino could be used as evidence to the contrary, but I would say his generally weak character demands a more modest representation.

So there's my two cents.  I'll grant that there's a good deal of sexism in gaming, but I don't think it's quite so pervasive.  Further, I don't necessarily ascribe such a sexism to a juvenile attitude towards sexuality, but rather an unenlightened one.

rushingwind

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Re: This sucks...
« Reply #18 on: June 11, 2007, 09:48:19 pm »
Oh wow, I didn't mean to stir anything up! 

I just want to add my two cents in on the debate about scantily-clad women in video games.  I personally love RPGs, and that's a majority of what I play.  In most RPGs that I've played, I've come to view the depiction (clothing and such) of women to be representative of power.  They outwardly show their power through a sexual nature.  This may sound weird/twisted/strange, but bear with me.

I can think of no better example of this than Yunalesca from Final Fantasy 10.  The woman is barely wearing anything at all, but you know from the moment you first hear her voice that she is someone you do not want to roll with.  Her appearance oozes power through her sexuality.  This is also true of Lulu, who is someone else you do not want to roll with.

Now consider Yuna.  Conservatively clad and meek from the start of the game, she is someone that everyone else protects, or rescues.  Face it, when you look at Yuna in FFX, "powerful" is not the first word that pops to mind.  When you look at Lulu or Yunalesca, the words "scary" or "frightening" will probably be quicker.

Another example that pops into my head is from the FF7 game.  There are monsters that you fight throughout the game that look like scantily-clad women.  One of them is on the glacier, she's a snow maiden or something like that, and another (the Pollensalita) is in the very last dungeon of the game.  She has a skill that you can learn called 'Angel Whisper', and it restores HP, fixes status ailments and revives a dead ally.  That's a powerful healing ability, and who do you learn it from?  Yes, a powerful, sexy, scantily-clad woman. 

Also, considering that many games come from Japanese sources, you have to take into consideration their religions and secular traditions.  Women hold far more dominant roles in mythology there than they do here in the West (think of Shinto Priestesses). 

So when I see a scantily-clad woman in a Japanese video game, I think "wow, she's probably a tough cookie".

Kyronea

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Re: This sucks...
« Reply #19 on: June 11, 2007, 09:58:06 pm »
...

Now that's a completely different look on circumstances...and definitely an applicable one. I commend you, good madam(I've never said good madam before...it's always good sir...) for one point that gives me a completely different outlook on the matter. I'm not certain if I entirely agree with it in that it's what was intended by the game developers, but it's definitely a good outlook on the matter.

Kanadyets

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Re: This sucks...
« Reply #20 on: June 11, 2007, 09:58:41 pm »
Hey, I wouldn't worry about stirring things up.  It gives us more to talk about.

I'm with you on the examples from FFX, as I was furious right from the get-go that Yuna had such a dominant role in the game, as she's incredibly lame and a bane on my existence whenever I play FFX.

Lulu, on the other hand, is totally BA and a fixture in my primary 3 at all times (I just wish obtaining her celestial weapon wasn't such a pain).

I think the problem comes from the fact that while Japanese games do tend to depict women as both sexy and powerful, those of us living in the west get the bombshell-with-brains-of-a-gnat image thrown at us all too frequently.

Oh, and as an aside, the first word that popped into my mind when Lulu came along was "right".  The second was "on".

Burning Zeppelin

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Re: This sucks...
« Reply #21 on: June 12, 2007, 05:02:54 am »
I'm sure all women don't mind that women if video games are scantily clad.

Kanadyets

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Re: This sucks...
« Reply #22 on: June 12, 2007, 05:15:20 am »
Granted, but as rushingwind pointed out with her examples, the bared flesh and sexiness represents something.  I'll bet there'd be less entusiasm if games had characters whose entire purpose was simply to be scantily clad.  Not to mention that a game made up of calendar girls would probably be pretty boring.

Mystic Frog King

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Re: This sucks...
« Reply #23 on: June 12, 2007, 03:44:05 pm »
Hey, I wouldn't worry about stirring things up.  It gives us more to talk about.

Shame I can't blame it on Kyronea this time. =P

I honestly don't see the attraction in Lulu. Now Rikku, on the other hand... she's cute, sexy and she isn't even very scantily clad. Well, she is in X-2. But that game is an abomination and it completely ruined her. And Yuna, who's pretty in a different way, I guess.

Anyhow... I don't think scantily clad girls in games seems to repel female gamers- or at least it doesn't repel any female gamers I know, anyway.

Not to mention that a game made up of calendar girls would probably be pretty boring.

Well, yeah =/

Kanadyets

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Re: This sucks...
« Reply #24 on: June 12, 2007, 06:20:29 pm »

It was the whole goth thing.  It works.  Plus, given that she was very black mage-y, I thought it was a nice touch.  Rikku I found to be to loud and obnoxious.  She kinda reminded me of my little sister.  Very unsexy.

Mystic Frog King

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Re: This sucks...
« Reply #25 on: June 14, 2007, 01:07:51 pm »
It was the whole goth thing.  It works.  Plus, given that she was very black mage-y, I thought it was a nice touch.  Rikku I found to be to loud and obnoxious.  She kinda reminded me of my little sister.  Very unsexy.

Oh, I dunno. I'm only considering visual appeal here btw ;D

Kanadyets

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Re: This sucks...
« Reply #26 on: June 14, 2007, 01:14:03 pm »

Yeah, I know what you mean.  It's just that once the thought had entered my head when I started playing, it was there for good.

Mr. Molecule

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Re: This sucks...
« Reply #27 on: June 17, 2007, 07:04:45 am »
This is also true of Lulu, who is someone else you do not want to roll with.

I dunno. I wouldn't mind rolling with her.

...

[extracts mind from gutter]

There! Better. I really think the excessive amount of female flesh found in video games does turn women off video games. Imagine, guys, that there was a game that exclusively included guys in thongs playing beach volleyball. Now imagine this isn't a weird specialty game, but an offshoot of a major game that allows you to fight these same guys with mostly fully-clothed women. And even the most respected games in this second game's genre include guys revealing clothing that accentuates their most private bits. Imagine that most big games don't even have guys in them, just fully covered women, but when guys do pop up, they are usually portrayed primarily as sex symbols.

Yeah, there's a reason that although women certainly show an interest in the few games that DO cater to their interests, there are few avid female gamers.

I also have a problem with undressed=powerful. I dunno if it's a good message to send out there?

That said, I think the Chronoverse is pretty good about welcoming women I think. Even though there are sexy girls in Cross, there are also powerful women who don't also have to be sluts! And there's plenty o' beefcake too. Nikki shirks shirts, and Karsh and Guile also show tantalizing glimpses of bare chest. Oh la la!

...in case anyone is confused, yes, I am a (straight) guy. I'm just comfortable about it.

CyberSarkany

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Re: This sucks...
« Reply #28 on: June 17, 2007, 07:54:11 am »
Just don't give a damn, that's what I do. If anyone needs half naked(or is it half clothed?) women fighting in mud or whatever, it is his/her thingy. If a lot of people like it, and pay for it, I understand why companies go on that way. Blame ourselves. Of course most guys just prefer good looking women over cool looking guys, that's why a mix.

Ever played wrestling games?

Kanadyets

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Re: This sucks...
« Reply #29 on: June 17, 2007, 12:10:27 pm »

I hate to play devil's advocate, Mr. Molecule, but anytime that any element of my being gets reduced (elevated?) to the status of sex object, I'm a pretty happy camper as it doesn't happen often (read: ever).

Yes, I know, if it happened all the time and no one heard my ideas because I was just another pretty face (yeesh!), I would know what's it like for the shoe to be on the other foot.  In any case, as was pointed out previously, with Japanese games it's an aspect of culture.  Besides, one way or another, sexiness is powerful.  The example may be tasteless, but when drooling idiots go into a strip club and empty their pockets for women to disrobe, who is in control of whom?

Oh, and CyberSarkany, I would say it's half-naked.  It depends on what's considered to be the default.  I say clothed is.  Others might disagree since we come into the world all nakee, but I'd say full clothed is the standard when one is portrayed, hence to remove half of the clothes, one would therefore be half naked.