Author Topic: Small Government, Big Government: A Mature Conversation Herein Awaits  (Read 6075 times)

Lord J Esq

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Rep. Ron Paul (R) speaking on the House floor in 2003 about how the Neo-Conservatives in Washington are destroying our country.

Ah, paleoconservatives. They make ya just all warm and fuzzy inside, eh? What with their monotone chant of...Small government! Small government! Small government! A government so small you can drown it in a bathtub! (See: "Norquist's Bathtub")

I made it through 8'57" of Rep. Paul's little ditty.

Hurricane Katrina was all the bath anybody should ever need to send those jokers packing. Paleoconservatives are as bad as the neoconservatives. Small government was discredited by the dawn of the nineteenth century. High technology, global economics, and large populations ensure the permanent need for a strong central authority.

Anybody who elects a government that hates government is a fool and probably deserves what they get.

Ramsus

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« Reply #1 on: May 10, 2007, 11:12:35 am »
Rep. Ron Paul (R) speaking on the House floor in 2003 about how the Neo-Conservatives in Washington are destroying our country.

Ah, paleoconservatives. They make ya just all warm and fuzzy inside, eh? What with their monotone chant of...Small government! Small government! Small government! A government so small you can drown it in a bathtub! (See: "Norquist's Bathtub")

I made it through 8'57" of Rep. Paul's little ditty.

Hurricane Katrina was all the bath anybody should ever need to send those jokers packing. Paleoconservatives are as bad as the neoconservatives. Small government was discredited by the dawn of the nineteenth century. High technology, global economics, and large populations ensure the permanent need for a strong central authority.

Anybody who elects a government that hates government is a fool and probably deserves what they get.

Greater personal liberty and a more liberally managed economy that encourages new business growth and development? An end to the war on drugs, and more money spent on domestic issues instead of fighting wars abroad and acting as the world police? An end to our convoluted tax laws that help the accountant and lawyer professions more than any poor family? A balanced budget?

The central authority can be strong without reaching into every aspect of our daily lives. Maybe you want the government changing your diaper every day, but I sure as hell don't if it means I also can't leave the house.

Besides, I thought fascism and communism were discredited in the 20th century.

Kyronea

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« Reply #2 on: May 10, 2007, 11:25:51 am »
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Greater personal liberty and a more liberally managed economy that encourages new business growth and development? An end to the war on drugs, and more money spent on domestic issues instead of fighting wars abroad and acting as the world police? An end to our convoluted tax laws that help the accountant and lawyer professions more than any poor family? A balanced budget?
Hey, I agree with all that, for the most part, though I would like some conditions put into place market wise that would allow all to have equal opportunity. I stress opportunity, as people should rise and fall based on their merits, but they deserve the chance to prove they have said merits, eh? Otherwise, as I said, I agree with all that.
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The central authority can be strong without reaching into every aspect of our daily lives. Maybe you want the government changing your diaper every day, but I sure as hell don't if it means I also can't leave the house.
Neither do I...a nanny state is dangerously close to an authoritarian state. On that same token I don't want a toothless government incapable of doing anything, and that seems to be what some paleoconservatives want.
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Besides, I thought fascism and communism were discredited in the 20th century.
Oh, come on, Ramsus...don't toss out such an obvious strawman.

ZeaLitY

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« Reply #3 on: May 10, 2007, 01:01:02 pm »
This need not be a battle of sweeping ideals. We can specify our points of contention:

  • Welfare
  • Affirmative action
  • Social Security

State run social institutions are usually the subjects of debate. So one can start with welfare. Conservatives say that in America, you have the power to work hard, go to college, get a degree, and get a higher paying job. Liberals say that in America, we take care of one another, and the unemployed should not be left out to dry between jobs or should get some help in moving up the social ladder. The reality is convoluted, and can lend itself to arguments for either side. These include success stories, such as people actually getting off welfare, and failure stories, such as poor people using the money to buy into elaborate installment agreements (well, make that America, not poor people) or stating that they receive more economic benefit on welfare than they could taking a job at the time.

Well, not sure where I was going with that, but I think what I mean to say is that we aren't talking blank check GOVERNMENT IN UR LIFE KILLIN UR RIGHTS versus THE LOOT IS ON FIRE. We can pinpoint what private does better and can do, and what public does better and must do.

Kyronea

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« Reply #4 on: May 10, 2007, 01:21:49 pm »
Exactly my point, Zeality, which is why I was annoyed at Ramsus' obvious and unnecessary strawman.

When it comes to welfare, I am firmly in favour of aiding those in need, in terms of funding for various purposes, such as food, housing, and especially learning skills for jobs and finding jobs. We'd need to set some kind of system in place to avoid abuse, however...how we can do that I do not yet know. I would suggest some kind of strike system, or perhaps a time-based system, but either one could potentially leave innocents out in the cold, and since we're trying to avoid exactly that...

Affirmative action, on the other hand, I am completely and totally against, as it is naught but state-sponsered racism, of the worst kind: an attempt to help. I say it is the worst kind because while helping is good, helping for the wrong reasons is terrible. Everyone deserves equal opportunity, and by equal I mean equal, regardless of race, sex, sexual orientation, ect ect. None of these quotas or intentional allowing of lesser qualified people because they are a minority or what have you. Treat everyone equally and ensure equal opportunity, and address what must be addressed to ensure this.

Social security is a much more iffy proposition for me...I agree with the idea but I would like for people to able to do it on their own if they can, so in essence it's like an extension of my vision of welfare: help for those who need it to get back on their feet and accomplish things on their own, a safety net rather than a nanny. On that same token, I will under no circumstances write people off due to advanced age. Most of the problems that result from advanced age are reverseable and preventable with our medical science as it stands now, and what is left to address becomes easier to address each and every day. My father is almost 65, but he is still hard at work because he has no other option. Sadly, he is extremely specialized and so when he does lose a job it becomes enormously difficult for him to find another one, and he has to because he supports not only my mother---who was diagnosed with diabetes last month and has since been quite ill--but myself and three younger siblings. It can be quite tight at times...we lost a house once...and because I understand this situation from my perspective I am eager to help render aid to others in similiar situations.

In all cases, I feel humanity, because we are sentient and can think for ourselves, has a duty and a responsibility to aid fellow humans wherever and whenever possible. We are not simple animals...we have minds. We can think...we can feel...we can act on morality. As such we must take care of each other, because nothing else on this planet will.

Ramsus

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« Reply #5 on: May 10, 2007, 03:40:02 pm »
Obvious and unnecessary? I'd be more concerned about a subversive straw man argument that the author actually believed due to an inability to think logically than an obvious one that amounts to nothing more than a figurative, and somewhat flashy, soundbite.

For example, what do you call making it appear that that somehow I'm against helping people based merely on my belief in smaller government, more liberal business laws, simpler taxes, and a balanced budget, and then using it as an argument against my beliefs?

I call that a straw man argument.

More importantly than that though, why are you limiting your options? Where is it written that national government is the only way in which society can be helped? You honestly don't think state governments and humanitarian organizations can do more good for people than a super-powerful nation-state that has control of our daily life in the name of working for "the greater good" ? It's my firm belief that such a powerful government would be too dangerous to permit, regardless of the possible benefits.

I believe that such a government simply wastes money, slows down economic growth, misallocates welfare, brainwashes our kids, and hurts our civil liberties, and that such a government inevitably leads to fascism, as those in power begin to feel the needs of preserving their all so precious state are more important than the needs of the people it was created to help.

However, I don't believe that we should all live in some back-stabbing, dog-eat-dog world where individuals have to fight to survive, and those born into poverty should be left to pull themselves up by themselves.

Quit thinking like some third-rate political science student, and start thinking for yourself.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2007, 03:43:26 pm by Ramsus »

Kyronea

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« Reply #6 on: May 10, 2007, 03:48:48 pm »
Obvious and unnecessary? I'd be more concerned about a subversive straw man argument that the author actually believed due to an inability to think logically than an obvious one that amounts to nothing more than a figurative, and somewhat flashy, soundbite.

For example, what do you call making it appear that that somehow I'm against helping people based merely on my belief in smaller government, more liberal business laws, simpler taxes, and a balanced budget, and then using it as an argument against my beliefs?

I call that a straw man argument.
I also call it a complete misinterpretation of my point. I was adding on my own personal beliefs, not attempting to skew or otherwise determine your own.
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More importantly than that though, why are you limiting your options? Where is it written that national government is the only way in which society can be helped?
Never said that.
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You honestly don't think state governments and humanitarian organizations can do more good for people than a super-powerful nation-state that has control of our daily life in the name of working for "the greater good" ? It's my firm belief that such a powerful government would be too dangerous to permit, regardless of the possible benefits.
I never said that either. In fact, I think I specifically stated I was against putting all of my eggs in one basket, so to speak. Please don't make the exact assumptions you are accusing me of making.

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I believe that such a government simply wastes money, slows down economic growth, misallocates welfare, brainwashes our kids, and hurts our civil liberties, and that such a government inevitably leads to fascism, as those in power begin to feel the needs of preserving their all so precious state are more important than the needs of the people it was created to help.
And I agree with you. I am in firm favour of bringing in the private sector to aid where they would be most efficient. What I am concerned about is not dismissing government completely out of hand. Yes, giving it too much power is obviously a bad idea but that does not suddenly make the private sector anymore reliable. The exact same thing that makes the government too unreliable when given so much power--human nature--rules the private sector as well. As such, I urge caution on all fronts.

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However, I don't believe that we should all live in some back-stabbing, dog-eat-dog world where individuals have to fight to survive, and those born into poverty should be left to pull themselves up by themselves.
I'm glad to hear that, and I had honestly figured as much. Unlike some I'm not making assumptions left and right about people.
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Quit thinking like some third-rate political science student, and start thinking for yourself.
Take your own advice before tossing it on me.

Ramsus

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« Reply #7 on: May 10, 2007, 04:11:50 pm »
Obvious and unnecessary? I'd be more concerned about a subversive straw man argument that the author actually believed due to an inability to think logically than an obvious one that amounts to nothing more than a figurative, and somewhat flashy, soundbite.

For example, what do you call making it appear that that somehow I'm against helping people based merely on my belief in smaller government, more liberal business laws, simpler taxes, and a balanced budget, and then using it as an argument against my beliefs?

I call that a straw man argument.
I also call it a complete misinterpretation of my point. I was adding on my own personal beliefs, not attempting to skew or otherwise determine your own.
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More importantly than that though, why are you limiting your options? Where is it written that national government is the only way in which society can be helped?
Never said that.
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You honestly don't think state governments and humanitarian organizations can do more good for people than a super-powerful nation-state that has control of our daily life in the name of working for "the greater good" ? It's my firm belief that such a powerful government would be too dangerous to permit, regardless of the possible benefits.
I never said that either. In fact, I think I specifically stated I was against putting all of my eggs in one basket, so to speak. Please don't make the exact assumptions you are accusing me of making.

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I believe that such a government simply wastes money, slows down economic growth, misallocates welfare, brainwashes our kids, and hurts our civil liberties, and that such a government inevitably leads to fascism, as those in power begin to feel the needs of preserving their all so precious state are more important than the needs of the people it was created to help.
And I agree with you. I am in firm favour of bringing in the private sector to aid where they would be most efficient. What I am concerned about is not dismissing government completely out of hand. Yes, giving it too much power is obviously a bad idea but that does not suddenly make the private sector anymore reliable. The exact same thing that makes the government too unreliable when given so much power--human nature--rules the private sector as well. As such, I urge caution on all fronts.

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However, I don't believe that we should all live in some back-stabbing, dog-eat-dog world where individuals have to fight to survive, and those born into poverty should be left to pull themselves up by themselves.
I'm glad to hear that, and I had honestly figured as much. Unlike some I'm not making assumptions left and right about people.
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Quit thinking like some third-rate political science student, and start thinking for yourself.
Take your own advice before tossing it on me.

Stylish language is lost on you. Let me reduce myself to a level you understand.

Zeality posts about typical conservative beliefs. You post "exactly my point," explain that's why you don't like my "straw man," and then you used his constructed example to introduce your own beliefs through contrast. This associated my beliefs with typical conservative beliefs, creating a faulty implication that I held those typical conservative beliefs.

After pointing this out, I merely then tried to advance discussion by introducing possibilities that you didn't post about. Honestly, have you ever considered alternatives to using welfare backed by a strong national government to help society? What alternatives did you consider? That's essentially what I'm asking with my "assumptions."

Maybe you think talking about "public" and "private" sector and trust means something. You're thinking in the wrong terms.

When my Dad was in the Army, no matter what happened, he could get help, whether it was a few thousand dollars to cover some immediate debt or get a car fixed, or just getting someone to keep on eye on us. This is because all the guys he worked with and their families often pooled their money and organized things so they could work together and help each other if they were in need.

The Air Force has an organization that does just that for Airmen as well, and every year it saves a lot of people from losing their job or getting stuck in the middle of nowhere. However, if the national government were in charge of helping these same individuals, most of them would've been too stuck in paperwork and red tape to get any help, and those who get help would've gotten it too late.

I believe that it's communities that have to help people, not bureaucracies. At the very least, it should be a smaller bureaucracy like a state or city government.

That's why you think like a third-rate political science student, while I'm just a flashy asshole who actually thinks for himself.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2007, 04:30:55 pm by Ramsus »

Kyronea

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« Reply #8 on: May 10, 2007, 04:19:02 pm »
Quote from: Ramsus
Stylish language is lost on you. Let me reduce myself to a level you understand.

Zeality posts about typical conservative beliefs. You post "exactly my point," explain that's why you don't like my "straw man," and then you used his constructed example to introduce your own beliefs through contrast. This associated my beliefs with typical conservative beliefs, creating a faulty implication that I held those typical conservative beliefs.

After pointing this out, I merely then tried to advance discussion by introducing possibilities that you didn't post about. Honestly, have you ever considered alternatives to using welfare backed by a strong national government to help society? What alternatives did you consider?

That's why you think like a third-rate political science student, while I'm just a flashy asshole who actually thinks for himself.
You know what might help just a tiny bit Ramsus? If you quit acting like a jerk and discuss this reasonably without the insults. I am perfectly willing to discuss this topic rationally without any vested personal interest, but you seem to be unable to separate your own antagonistic behavior from the actual topic at hand.

As for what alternatives I've considered? Many. Just because I have not exposited on them does not mean I have not considered them. You keep telling me not to make assumptions about you and your political beliefs while you freely do the exact same thing.

And at the moment I will not exposit on them. I am tired and am not thinking as clearly as I would like. When I am thinking more clearly I will return and exposit, if you would like me to.

Lord J Esq

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« Reply #9 on: May 11, 2007, 04:05:49 am »
Small government was discredited by the dawn of the nineteenth century. High technology, global economics, and large populations ensure the permanent need for a strong central authority.

Anybody who elects a government that hates government is a fool and probably deserves what they get.

Greater personal liberty and a more liberally managed economy that encourages new business growth and development? An end to the war on drugs, and more money spent on domestic issues instead of fighting wars abroad and acting as the world police? An end to our convoluted tax laws that help the accountant and lawyer professions more than any poor family? A balanced budget?

Many of those things are excellent ideas. None of them inherently require a move toward smaller government. In fact, most of them require bigger government. (Not true either)

Item 1: Only a government with teeth and a long arm can keep aggressive mega corporations in line. It isn't the government that kills small business. It's big business that kills small business.

Item 2: An end to the war on drugs would be great, since we lost that particular war as soon as we declared it. But it has nothing to do with making the government smaller. Less invasive, perhaps.

Item 3: An end to the war in Iraq would be great also, since a whole lotta people are dead now because of it--not least of which is America's reputation--and all for nothing. But, again, ending the war doesn't require that we make the government smaller. Less militaristic, perhaps.

Item 4: Tax reform is a great idea! But reforming the tax code doesn't mean collecting fewer taxes.

Item 5: A balanced budget is something we desperately need. And I'd even support a great deal of spending cuts to get there. We can start by slashing corporate welfare, rehabilitating our military, and going electronic, just to name a few things. We also need to jack up taxes on the rich, but that's another story. In any case, the prerequisite of a balanced budget is not a smaller government, nor is the reverse true.

You could have saved yourself a lot of time--and a spat with Kyronea--by putting out some legitimate small-government ideas rather than a fistful of herring. Of course, even if you had done so you still would have lost, because small government went extinct like the dodo and it ain't coming back. The Democrats aren't going to revive it. The Republicans sure as hell aren't going to revive it. And the Libertarians would half-destroy society and get killed in the elections before their plans ever came to their dreadful conclusion.

The central authority can be strong without reaching into every aspect of our daily lives.

Yes, I agree with you there, Ramsus. Good point.

Maybe you want the government changing your diaper every day, but I sure as hell don't if it means I also can't leave the house. Besides, I thought fascism and communism were discredited in the 20th century.

The reason we don't leave the people to change their own diapers is that shit stinks.

Kyronea

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One thing I completely missed when I last looked at your post: when I said "exactly my point" to Zeality's post, I was referring to Zeality's last line:
Quote from: Zeality
Well, not sure where I was going with that, but I think what I mean to say is that we aren't talking blank check GOVERNMENT IN UR LIFE KILLIN UR RIGHTS versus THE LOOT IS ON FIRE. We can pinpoint what private does better and can do, and what public does better and must do.

I did not quote that line and thus caused confusion. My apologies.

Now, as promised, I will exposit on the ideas I considered:

1. A combined government/corporate welfare system. Think the way the Postal Service is partially privatized, with the government generally running things from a funding standpoint but with private corporations providing the management and efficiency. While this is probably the best way to run universal healthcare--an absolute necessity for our nation, since with current insurance rates it would be far cheaper on the whole to pay through taxes than to pay for insurance--it is not the best way to run welfare.

2. Completely outsourced to the private sector: this is probably the worst idea because welfare would turn into a joke, much like our current healthcare system.

3. Private savings accounts, a la Bush's plan to "save" Social Security: also a bad idea because it not only relies upon one being able to net a job and donate enough of what they make from that job into a savings account in the first place--which is almost never going to happen for those who take low-income jobs such as fast food jobs--it could severely limit those even with much higher-income jobs and leave lots of people hanging.

So, this is why I prefer something purely government run. If necessary, I am willing to bring in some private management, but I am hesitant to do so because I do not entirely trust such management for an issue like this. Do not mistake this for complete trust in the government on this either...I am simply more willing to trust those I can elect and vote out of office than those I cannot. Call it a case of extra security on who is in charge.


Many of those things are excellent ideas. None of them inherently require a move toward smaller government. In fact, most of them require bigger government. (Not true either)
Exactly. What they require is an efficient government. People seem to have this idea in their head that a government has to be small to be efficient, and that simply is not true in all instances, though it does occasionally. It all depends on what specific parts we are trying to make efficient.
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Item 1: Only a government with teeth and a long arm can keep aggressive mega corporations in line. It isn't the government that kills small business. It's big business that kills small business.
Indeed. Corporations will freely abuse their power if given free reign. On that same token, let us not give said government too many teeth, lest we have the same situation on our hands.
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Item 2: An end to the war on drugs would be great, since we lost that particular war as soon as we declared it. But it has nothing to do with making the government smaller. Less invasive, perhaps.
Aye. It was foolish from the start. What would make a hell of a lot more sense is to legalize most of these drugs--though keep some of the more artificial ones, such as crystal meth, illegal--and start regulating them. Tax them and use at least some of the funds to help pay for any potential medical problems that result. You create a new industry, save billions of dollars each year and bring in new income, provide new jobs when it comes to domestic growth, cultivation, and creation of the drugs collapse the black market, and keep those who use such drugs safer because through regulation we can prevent doping of some drugs with harder drugs, overdoses, and so on and so forth. It's all nice and tidy and everyone wins..
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Item 3: An end to the war in Iraq would be great also, since a whole lotta people are dead now because of it--not least of which is America's reputation--and all for nothing. But, again, ending the war doesn't require that we make the government smaller. Less militaristic, perhaps.
Aye. The war was a bad idea from the start. While Saddam Hussein is no angel by any means, he was probably our best bet for some kind of reliable ally in the Middle East. He was a secularist, and more than that, he sat on the Pandora's Box of Chaos and kept things in line. Women had a lot more freedom on the whole under his regime than they do now, certainly. By taking him out we destroyed the one thing keeping all of those groups that hate each other there from killing each other. It's our fault.

Unfortunately, we do not have the manpower necessary to get it under control, as it would require five times the number of troops we have in the region right now, and as I last recall, we're so strained that we've been sending people on third and fourth tours of duty with barely any sort of downtime. We've even been sending injured soldiers back out there.

So all we can do now is withdraw and let the Iraqis handle the situation on their own. Eventually one group will gain power and take everything over, and maybe--just maybe--get things under control, at which time we should establish diplomatic relations with this group in power and do what we can to try to reform things from there. The more we delay from taking this course of action, the more  lives we sacrifice for nothing.

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Item 4: Tax reform is a great idea! But reforming the tax code doesn't mean collecting fewer taxes.
Reforming the tax code means simplifying the tax laws, and by doing so we may find we are collecting fewer taxes on the whole, especially if we're cutting funding in certain areas, such as fighting the War on Drugs or the war in Iraq.
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Item 5: A balanced budget is something we desperately need. And I'd even support a great deal of spending cuts to get there. We can start by slashing corporate welfare, rehabilitating our military, and going electronic, just to name a few things. We also need to jack up taxes on the rich, but that's another story. In any case, the prerequisite of a balanced budget is not a smaller government, nor is the reverse true.
Indeed. We need a balanced budget more than ever with rampant unchecked spending by the Bush administration going full on without looking back. As for how? Well, you mentioned several items worthy of note, such as slashing corporate welfare, and restructering our military, though I have no idea what you mean by going electronic. Are you referring to eliminating paperwork in the sense of papers and conducting such business through computers?

Raising taxes on the rich is a good idea, but so is lowering taxes on the poorer masses. I again suggest my method that combines a national sales tax with Keynesian scaled income tax, where we only tax the income of those who earn upper-middle class and above incomes, as they can afford to have such tax come from their incomes a lot easier than others.
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Of course, even if you had done so you still would have lost, because small government went extinct like the dodo and it ain't coming back. The Democrats aren't going to revive it. The Republicans sure as hell aren't going to revive it. And the Libertarians would half-destroy society and get killed in the elections before their plans ever came to their dreadful conclusion.
Indeed, indeed, and oh CERTAINLY indeed. Hopefully we're seeing the end of big government as well, and the dawn of efficient government, which should be the goal of all, where size is irrelevant.

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The reason we don't leave the people to change their own diapers is that shit stinks.
I think he was trying to use it as a metaphor for not doing anything ourselves but just letting the government provide for us all the time, which we should never allow to happen. It's what I interpreted from his statement, and I agree with it. On that same token I don't want the government or society completely abandoning everyone either. As I said before, as sentient beings we have a duty and a responsibility to help each other whenever possible.

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Sweet...Ron Paul:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=peBGJwE9NXo&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fronpaul2008%2Ecom%2F
(Off topic sorry, the debate could be a new topic for later perhaps)

"Paleoconservatives are as bad as the neoconservatives."

Well, let's see...I would rate the Bush administration as highly neo-con. So would we'd all rather have gigantic spending, much on a war that wasn't needed and hasn't helped us, wiretapping, allegations of torture, fear mongering, corruption...or those monotone guys talking about smaller government, are they really as bad as neo-cons? Governments have corrupt elements, governments sometimes do bad things, so why would anyone want to make ourselves more reliant on it?

Ron Paul makes many good points, our government is large, mixed with our expensive policies (most of which arent working), are making this country bankrupt, and they are printing money almost constantly to make up for it.

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Here's a big miscellaneous post.

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3. Private savings accounts, a la Bush's plan to "save" Social Security: also a bad idea because it not only relies upon one being able to net a job and donate enough of what they make from that job into a savings account in the first place--which is almost never going to happen for those who take low-income jobs such as fast food jobs--it could severely limit those even with much higher-income jobs and leave lots of people hanging.

This depends on one's style of living. If you take 10%-50% of your paycheck, starting from age 18, and put it combined in stocks, Roth IRAs, maybe some bonds, and mutual funds, you'll be a millionaire in your 40s. Most people just live beyond the threshold for taking such a percentage (easy to do when you're surviving), live beyond their means entirely (if I had a nickel for all the people I know of who owe their first borns to a car dealership or bank...), or don't have the know-how or drive to invest. But the system is definitely there and waiting.

As an aside, Sarbanes-Oxley really ethically clamped down on US public corporations (that's partially why private buyouts are getting popular). SEC security registration is tightened, and management has to personally sign of on all representations concerning the financial statements and internal controls of the company. There are a few critics who argue that other, unethical countries now have free reign to encroach upon our markets now that the US bottom line has been put in check somewhat. But this is mostly a problem of clerical inefficiency (like the money pit of registering securities with the SEC; it costs exorbitant amounts). If you want to find the worst ostensible problem, it's these stupidly huge severance packages, like the Exxon guy getting $140 million or the failed Home Depot guy getting his millions.

Well, more asides. Healthcare is a byzantine, labyrinthine hell. Exercise, because the healthcare system cannot be trusted. From all the experiences and information I've read, I vote no confidence. Sheesh, it's insane, and big pharmaceutical companies are some of the corporations to really watch out for. Still, they can argue that they synthesize and handle R&D better than government labs, since they are motivated by profits.

Right now, the tax code is a product of the Republicans winning the war. The estate tax this year no longer exists for those with $2 million or under, and next year the limit goes up to $3. It's incredibly more lenient than it was in years passed, but it's still pretty complex. Taxes will probably go up in the future now that the long reign is over, so Roth IRAs are a good bet for locking in some of your money at a lower tax rate for investment growth. (In a Roth IRA, you pay taxes before contributing to the plan.) But I wouldn't be so hasty to just tax the wealthy at inordinate rates just yet. There's an entire commodity market designed just for them, including real estate, yachts, and other fancy items. Levying taxes on the rich is something that will need research beforehand, and a rich product sales tax might be a nice idea.

Lastly, I've got to agree with Ramsus that state and regional governments are probably better equipped to handle welfare right now. Sure, "efficient government" can be touted as a panacea, but until something that magical happens, state governments are right there waiting to micromanage and capable of auditing problems within their borders. Part of the reason why US law is so organic and evolving is the existence of several state courts and district courts, which allow conflicting rulings to be made over time. This puts the practice of using precedent in check somewhat, especially if you're in weird states like California and Louisiana. Good ideas can grow in rebel state courts, and the diversity of state governments allows social programs to be tested on trial bases (rather than putting the entire country in cold turkey). So I agree that the states could do some good, at least until you up the magnifying glass and realize that a few states are outright theocracies at the moment...

Kyronea

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Here's a big miscellaneous post.
Goodie.
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This depends on one's style of living. If you take 10%-50% of your paycheck, starting from age 18, and put it combined in stocks, Roth IRAs, maybe some bonds, and mutual funds, you'll be a millionaire in your 40s. Most people just live beyond the threshold for taking such a percentage (easy to do when you're surviving), live beyond their means entirely (if I had a nickel for all the people I know of who owe their first borns to a car dealership or bank...), or don't have the know-how or drive to invest. But the system is definitely there and waiting.
All true. Still, the problem is that this relies purely on education and investment know-how, and most people do not have this education necessary, which is sad. We so rarely prepare people for dealing with finances and so on as we should in high school, and this is something that should definitely be addressed.

Of course, it can still be quite difficult for most people even if they are just surviving. You have to remember how many people will have one or two children to provide for as well as themselves...all those single parents struggling to survive...while investment is a path for some, it's just not possible for many, which is why it cannot be relied upon, at least not as a system for everyone. For those that can, on the other hand, it's a good system and I give the nod to it.

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As an aside, Sarbanes-Oxley really ethically clamped down on US public corporations (that's partially why private buyouts are getting popular). SEC security registration is tightened, and management has to personally sign of on all representations concerning the financial statements and internal controls of the company. There are a few critics who argue that other, unethical countries now have free reign to encroach upon our markets now that the US bottom line has been put in check somewhat. But this is mostly a problem of clerical inefficiency (like the money pit of registering securities with the SEC; it costs exorbitant amounts). If you want to find the worst ostensible problem, it's these stupidly huge severance packages, like the Exxon guy getting $140 million or the failed Home Depot guy getting his millions.
You know more about this than I do, so I stand educated on this topic, and for that I thank you.
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Well, more asides. Healthcare is a byzantine, labyrinthine hell. Exercise, because the healthcare system cannot be trusted. From all the experiences and information I've read, I vote no confidence.
With the current system, absolutely. That's why we need a partial privatized universal health care set into works. It will be far cheaper for everyone, and millions of people who need treatment will be able to get it, rather than fretting over not being able to pay the bills.
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Sheesh, it's insane, and big pharmaceutical companies are some of the corporations to really watch out for. Still, they can argue that they synthesize and handle R&D better than government labs, since they are motivated by profits.
Sure, they synthesize and handle R&D better, but their priorites when it comes to what precisely they should work on are driven purely by the market, and I would prefer at least some governmental oversight on these issues to ensure that they do not waste their time on hair loss or something inane when there are serious medical problems to be addressed.
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Right now, the tax code is a product of the Republicans winning the war. The estate tax this year no longer exists for those with $2 million or under, and next year the limit goes up to $3. It's incredibly more lenient than it was in years passed, but it's still pretty complex. Taxes will probably go up in the future now that the long reign is over, so Roth IRAs are a good bet for locking in some of your money at a lower tax rate for investment growth. (In a Roth IRA, you pay taxes before contributing to the plan.) But I wouldn't be so hasty to just tax the wealthy at inordinate rates just yet. There's an entire commodity market designed just for them, including real estate, yachts, and other fancy items. Levying taxes on the rich is something that will need research beforehand, and a rich product sales tax might be a nice idea.
Indeed. I don't know about J--though he'll probably agree with me--but I'm not for just raising them head-on without research into the specific areas it would be best to raise them in first. Sensible planning will save us a lot of time and extra expense later, and that's more efficient.

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Lastly, I've got to agree with Ramsus that state and regional governments are probably better equipped to handle welfare right now. Sure, "efficient government" can be touted as a panacea, but until something that magical happens, state governments are right there waiting to micromanage and capable of auditing problems within their borders. Part of the reason why US law is so organic and evolving is the existence of several state courts and district courts, which allow conflicting rulings to be made over time. This puts the practice of using precedent in check somewhat, especially if you're in weird states like California and Louisiana. Good ideas can grow in rebel state courts, and the diversity of state governments allows social programs to be tested on trial bases (rather than putting the entire country in cold turkey). So I agree that the states could do some good, at least until you up the magnifying glass and realize that a few states are outright theocracies at the moment...
I never said state governments couldn't do things efficiently. I agree especially when it comes to welfare they are more likely to be able to handle the specifics better on their own state level. I just want all government, be it local, state, federal, global, or what have you, to be as efficient as possible, because with efficiency comes saved money and time for all, and that'll make everyone much happier.

Radical_Dreamer

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While ending the drug war and simplifying the tax code don't have any intrinsic connection to small government, the practical effect of such changse in the United States would be a smaller government. The DEA could be dismantled, and the IRS reduced in scale. To maintain the present size of these groups with those changes would be big government for big government's sake.