Author Topic: Question about shadow magic.  (Read 4268 times)

Chrono'99

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Re: Question about shadow magic.
« Reply #15 on: May 25, 2007, 11:24:05 am »
If Schala can seal a time gate, wouldn't it be possible that Schala is a shadow innate?   What Schala did isn't any normal sealing & it might require a high level of magic potential & a deep knowledge in shadow magic.

Schala can't "seal a time gate", she just created a force field around something which happened to be a time gate.

SolidSnake_8608

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Re: Question about shadow magic.
« Reply #16 on: May 25, 2007, 01:18:40 pm »
Which in itself is weird. How the hell can someone put a barrier over something like a gate?

Chrono'99

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Re: Question about shadow magic.
« Reply #17 on: May 25, 2007, 02:50:02 pm »
Which in itself is weird. How the hell can someone put a barrier over something like a gate?

Same way you put a barrier over, like, anything else.

Kyronea

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Re: Question about shadow magic.
« Reply #18 on: May 25, 2007, 08:04:38 pm »
To add on to what Chrono'99 is saying, she essentially created a pyramid-shaped forcefield around the area of the Gate where it would be unable to expand. Without being able to expand, it could not be opened.

I do admit minor confusion over why the pyramid also appeared in 65,000,000 B.C., and why it just vanished after Crono and friends obtained the Epoch, but those two are easily explained:

1. It was more a gameplay feature than reality. In the reality of the situation a pyramid would not have appeared, but the Gate would only take them to the End of Time. Rather than take the time to only force the 65,000,000 B.C. half of the Gate to appear in the End of Time without the other end appearing as well, the game creators just wrote the whole thing off and sealed it from the player.

2. Presumeably Schala removed the barrier from the Gate as well as the barrier on the Skyway, though this explanation might be incorrect if the pyramid force field was immediately gone upon arrival in the Epoch, as Schala had yet to come down to the planet's surface at this time. (Otherwise we might have seen her in the Earthbound Village and we would have been able to access the Skyway.)

SolidSnake_8608

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Re: Question about shadow magic.
« Reply #19 on: May 26, 2007, 03:19:02 pm »
My point is that how can a barrier stop something like a time gate from being activated. I mean, putting a box over a gate wouldn't stop it from opening, more like it would just travel in time with whoever activated the gate to begin with.

Radical_Dreamer

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Re: Question about shadow magic.
« Reply #20 on: May 26, 2007, 03:40:07 pm »
Time gates physically expand when someone is travelling through them. Schala's barrier prevents this expansion, and thus, the use of the gate.

SolidSnake_8608

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Re: Question about shadow magic.
« Reply #21 on: May 31, 2007, 09:09:07 pm »
I somehow find it hard to believe that a barrier of any kind would stop a rift in the space time continnuam from opening.

Kyronea

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Re: Question about shadow magic.
« Reply #22 on: May 31, 2007, 09:44:27 pm »
I somehow find it hard to believe that a barrier of any kind would stop a rift in the space time continnuam from opening.
...

Okay, look, were you not reading what he said? Yes, it is a tear in the space-time continuum, but it has to expand physically in order for the three people inside of it to exit out back into reality! If it cannot expand physically--meaning that hole is really there as a physical object--then it cannot deposit them and they cannot travel through.

Zaperking

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Re: Question about shadow magic.
« Reply #23 on: June 01, 2007, 10:03:03 pm »
Can't we also say that the round gate thing is also just for game play? Early on in the game, when Crono and co were running away from the Chancellor, they had them backed in a corner, and all of a sudden the Chancellor said that they disappeared into thin air.
If a real gate opened up, and it was visible, then wouldn't they have seen them actually step into something and run after them into it?

It's probably just for game play, and truly all Crono and co do is detect a gate or something with the gate key and the gate key automatically lets them pass through as if the gate was a well or something. Without the key - there is nothing there kinda :/ Who knows.

Kyronea

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Re: Question about shadow magic.
« Reply #24 on: June 01, 2007, 11:57:10 pm »
Can't we also say that the round gate thing is also just for game play? Early on in the game, when Crono and co were running away from the Chancellor, they had them backed in a corner, and all of a sudden the Chancellor said that they disappeared into thin air.
If a real gate opened up, and it was visible, then wouldn't they have seen them actually step into something and run after them into it?

It's probably just for game play, and truly all Crono and co do is detect a gate or something with the gate key and the gate key automatically lets them pass through as if the gate was a well or something. Without the key - there is nothing there kinda :/ Who knows.
Uh, no. The Chancellor's comment leaves room for interpretation, especially since the characters tend to make a fuss over Gates appearing in several parts of the game. Basically, the way I see it, he had no idea what the actual Gate effect was and just saw something swallow them up. "They...DISAPPEARED?!" is not an entirely accurate comment on the situation, but definitely one of the things people are most likely to say.

So no, we cannot say that the physical Gate effect is for gameplay, especially since that would throw the whole idea of Gates into whack to begin with. Remember the display in Chronopolis in Chrono Cross that talks about Lucca's postulate about miniature black holes? She's talking about the Gates there. And without a physical component, how could they enter the Gate to begin with?

No...the Gates are what they appear to be...distortions in space-time with a physical opening that can only be stabilized by the Gate Key or a similiar device. Presumeably the Gate Key also encorporates a method of exicting the Gates into revealing their location, as they are invisible to the player until Lucca has the Gate Key, as demonstrated when the Gate in Truce Canyon disappeared after Crono passed through.

SolidSnake_8608

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Re: Question about shadow magic.
« Reply #25 on: June 02, 2007, 12:38:53 am »
I somehow find it hard to believe that a barrier of any kind would stop a rift in the space time continnuam from opening.
...

Okay, look, were you not reading what he said? Yes, it is a tear in the space-time continuum, but it has to expand physically in order for the three people inside of it to exit out back into reality! If it cannot expand physically--meaning that hole is really there as a physical object--then it cannot deposit them and they cannot travel through.

What I'm saying is that by standing next to the barrier and activating the gate, the barrier wouldn't stop it, the gate would just open up and suck the barrier in with when it closes. A gate  has no physical form, the Chancellor didn't see it because of this. You wouldn't just run into an invisible object one day and think, "Crap, must be a gate." You would just walk right through it. It would be like putting a box over a worm hole, activating it the same way a gate needs to be activated, and the worm hole not "opening" because of a box being over it. The reason why it doesn't expand is because it doesn't make sense for the game, that's the only reason.

Kyronea

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Re: Question about shadow magic.
« Reply #26 on: June 02, 2007, 12:44:28 am »

What I'm saying is that by standing next to the barrier and activating the gate, the barrier wouldn't stop it, the gate would just open up and suck the barrier in with when it closes. A gate  has no physical form, the Chancellor didn't see it because of this. You wouldn't just run into an invisible object one day and think, "Crap, must be a gate." You would just walk right through it. It would be like putting a box over a worm hole, activating it the same way a gate needs to be activated, and the worm hole not "opening" because of a box being over it. The reason why it doesn't expand is because it doesn't make sense for the game, that's the only reason.
...

The Gate does have a physical opening that has to deposit the people inside of it in normal space-time. That physical opening is the Gate effect we see. While you're right that a Gate otherwise has no physical form in our space-time--the minature Gate we see once we have the Gate Key is an unstable vortex that cannot be interacted with--it does when it operates under its normal function. As such, without the ability for it to physical expand into our own space-time, it cannot open and cannot be traveled through.

Radical_Dreamer

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Re: Question about shadow magic.
« Reply #27 on: June 02, 2007, 02:04:37 am »
The gates must have physical form because they are observed by characters in the game.

Zaperking

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Re: Question about shadow magic.
« Reply #28 on: June 02, 2007, 04:22:08 am »
Firstly, someone brought up the idea that Schala's barrier simply stopped the gate from expanding. If that is so, then what if an imp wanted to pass through it? They wouldn't need a large gate. And that's also the same as saying that a being like Lavos wanted to pass through it. They should if they want to.

But then whats the point of the game making an explicit statement about there having been a GIANT gate in Magus' castle. If the gate opens up proportionally to the people's size, then there would be no point in having different categories of gate magnitudes.

Furthermore, gates have a tendency to move people through time, as once you go inside the gate, you're being wooshed in the time steam.
This is evidenced by how in the beginning, you see the time stream pass.
This is also shown in the fact that in the Ocean Palace, the gates appeared underneath Janus and the Guru's and began to carry them away.
Why then does the game show Crono and co stepping inside the gate, then closing it, whilst they're standing in the time stream? Since when is the time stream static enough to let them just stand there.
The reason is because it's another gameplay thing. Just how the world doesn't reflect the entire inhabitance, just how Lavos doesn't look that big in his fight, just how Schala's barrier appears in both times (though you can't rule out the fact that she could have blocked the timegate, maybe doing a counter blackhole spell or something).

Either way, you can't say that gates are seeable. When Crono went to 600AD the first time, no gate appeared. The whole reason why we see it later is because Lucca made a gatekey, and for the player, we need to know where the gates are anyway. As I was saying, most likely anyone could stand in the spot where the gate is, but for it to actually open up physically or w/e, you need something like a gate key to activate it, just as SolidSnake_8608 said. Otherwise think what the other characters in the game would have tought of a big blue orb just hoving there -.-

Kyronea

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Re: Question about shadow magic.
« Reply #29 on: June 02, 2007, 04:41:26 am »
Firstly, someone brought up the idea that Schala's barrier simply stopped the gate from expanding. If that is so, then what if an imp wanted to pass through it? They wouldn't need a large gate. And that's also the same as saying that a being like Lavos wanted to pass through it. They should if they want to.
Uh...maybe because the barrier would work both ways, as most barriers tend to? Just because a brick wall keeps one from exiting a house does not mean one can enter a house through that same brick wall.
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But then whats the point of the game making an explicit statement about there having been a GIANT gate in Magus' castle. If the gate opens up proportionally to the people's size, then there would be no point in having different categories of gate magnitudes.
...because it doesn't open up proportionally to people's sizes. You just defeated your own argument by invoking the incident at Magus' Castle. The fact that Gate was larger than normal proves that Gates have a set size, possibly determined by their function and how they are able to continue existing.
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Furthermore, gates have a tendency to move people through time, as once you go inside the gate, you're being wooshed in the time steam.
This is evidenced by how in the beginning, you see the time stream pass.
This is also shown in the fact that in the Ocean Palace, the gates appeared underneath Janus and the Guru's and began to carry them away.
Okay, I'm with you here, since you're correct.
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Why then does the game show Crono and co stepping inside the gate, then closing it, whilst they're standing in the time stream? Since when is the time stream static enough to let them just stand there.
...yes, because we're always seeing things from the point of view of Crono and friends. It's not possible the camera lingered longer to show the casting of the barrier!

Come on, Zaper, you can't possibly be this stupid about this. Obviously they were wisked through time the instant they stepped through the Gate, as they normally are. We simply did not see it immediately because there was a cutscene we needed to view.
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The reason is because it's another gameplay thing. Just how the world doesn't reflect the entire inhabitance, just how Lavos doesn't look that big in his fight, just how Schala's barrier appears in both times (though you can't rule out the fact that she could have blocked the timegate, maybe doing a counter blackhole spell or something).
Not exactly. More like a storyline thing, but you're interpreting the event incorrectly.
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Either way, you can't say that gates are seeable.
Visible. Under normal conditions, no, they are not.
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When Crono went to 600AD the first time, no gate appeared.
It was there, but Crono could not see it.
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The whole reason why we see it later is because Lucca made a gatekey, and for the player, we need to know where the gates are anyway.
Yes...but remember, every single second we have the Gate Key, we can see the Gates. When we don't have the Gate Key, like when it is missing in 65,000,000 B.C., the Gates disappear from sight. This, to me, means that Lucca programmed something into the Gate Key to excite the Gates into existence whenever they step near, allowing them to see the Gates as a visible, though not physical, distortion. It would make sense, as it is just a limited version of what the Gate Key does anyway.
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As I was saying, most likely anyone could stand in the spot where the gate is, but for it to actually open up physically or w/e, you need something like a gate key to activate it, just as SolidSnake_8608 said. Otherwise think what the other characters in the game would have tought of a big blue orb just hoving there -.-
What's your point? This is completely and totally obvious. As I keep saying, the Gate Key is used to excite the Gates into revealing themselves. Without it, the distortion is invisble and cannot be interacted with on any level. Even when visible it still cannot be interacted with, unless you exert the full effects of the Gate Key and open it manually. Otherwise Gates would just open up whenever the party stepped near them rather than waiting till the party intentionally touched the Gate.

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