Author Topic: Question about shadow magic.  (Read 8120 times)

Magus_Brokenhart

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Question about shadow magic.
« on: May 05, 2007, 04:50:31 am »
Magus's stronger spells have to do with real time/space ideas. You know it probably, Black Hole, a bend, collapse in time and space due to extreme gravity. Suggested to create wormholes to transport you across time and space. Then there was Dark Matter. Apparently 90 percent of all the matter in the universe is composed of this, which we cannot see, but we can detect because it affects gravity. My point is, would very advanced shadow magic allow you to travel across time and space? Something Magus could have discovered later on?

Kyronea

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Re: Question about shadow magic.
« Reply #1 on: May 05, 2007, 05:13:45 am »
Yes. Shadow magic, from what we can discern from in-game evidence, is essentially about manipulating the forces of spacetime, and as such with enough power and knowledge of the intricities of Shadow magic, a shadowmage could conceivably create a form of Gate...after all, the Planet had to create the Gates somehow, and it was most likely done magically.

Chrono'99

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Re: Question about shadow magic.
« Reply #2 on: May 05, 2007, 05:38:49 am »
Even Dalton could create spatial Gates, so who knows what a very very advanced magic-user could do. In any case, Magus is not confirmed to have discovered timespace magic.

Kyronea

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Re: Question about shadow magic.
« Reply #3 on: May 05, 2007, 05:42:09 am »
Even Dalton could create spatial Gates, so who knows what a very very advanced magic-user could do. In any case, Magus is not confirmed to have discovered timespace magic.
True...the only piece of evidence we have that even suggests it is Lucca referring to Magus as Janus in her letter, but that could have easily been Epoch travel rather than Magus himself creating temporal Gates.

Still, I don't see why Shadow Magic itself could not achieve temporal travel, as I outlined above.

Zaperking

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Re: Question about shadow magic.
« Reply #4 on: May 05, 2007, 05:53:52 am »
If I recall correctly, Magus (or Gil) in Radical Dreamers supposedly had some time/space power. I forgot where it was teleportation, or time traveling.

As for Shadow Magic, as I once theorized, Shadow magic seems to be the true magic in the CT world.
What I meant by that is that Lightning,Water/Ice and Fire combined create Shadow.
The most striking evidence for it was that Magus is a Shadow user but he can cast any other magic type spell.

I know there was a discussion saying that Heaven countered it, but Shadow doesn't counter Heavenly, Hellish would lol.
Quite frankily, even Shadow Magic has spells of every other magic type. Dark Bomb is almost like Flare, theres a shielding spell that would be a life saving type spell (lightning/heavenly) etc.
It kind of works out in the end because then it would explain why Crono and co's magic was called "primative" as their magic is of only one of the 4 elements in CT.
Thats why Crono and co are so limited in their spell usage, whilst Magus and the Zealians can do so much (Magus turned Glenn into Frog, Schala sealed a time gate and traversed dimensions etc).

Feel free to add on.

Kyronea

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Re: Question about shadow magic.
« Reply #5 on: May 05, 2007, 06:07:29 am »
If I recall correctly, Magus (or Gil) in Radical Dreamers supposedly had some time/space power. I forgot where it was teleportation, or time traveling.
As much as I hate to say it since I adore Radical Dreamers, this is unfortunately irrelevant. Radical Dreamers is not canon.
Quote
As for Shadow Magic, as I once theorized, Shadow magic seems to be the true magic in the CT world.
What I meant by that is that Lightning,Water/Ice and Fire combined create Shadow.
The most striking evidence for it was that Magus is a Shadow user but he can cast any other magic type spell.
I am not certain I would agree...all magic seems to be manipulation of reality...now while it is possible that Shadow is simply the combined effort to manipulate spacetime along with the other elements, it really seems uncertain at best.
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I know there was a discussion saying that Heaven countered it, but Shadow doesn't counter Heavenly, Hellish would lol.
Quite frankily, even Shadow Magic has spells of every other magic type. Dark Bomb is almost like Flare, theres a shielding spell that would be a life saving type spell (lightning/heavenly) etc.
Well, see, it's not as if Heaven is pure and holy in any case, at least not in that sense. It's more associated with it, much like Shadow can be associated with evil. They are both in reality neutral but, as with many elements in so many other series--such as, say, Light and Darkness in Kingdom Hearts--they are not what they are associated as.

We also cannot assume that Shadow Magic can cast all other elements...Magus being the powerful sorcerer that he is suggests he may simply have learned a partial ability to utilize the other elements, and I would imagine Schala could do likewise, if not with greater proficiency. As he is the only example we have of true Shadow Magic we simply cannot determine this as of yet.

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It kind of works out in the end because then it would explain why Crono and co's magic was called "primative" as their magic is of only one of the 4 elements in CT.

Thats why Crono and co are so limited in their spell usage, whilst Magus and the Zealians can do so much (Magus turned Glenn into Frog, Schala sealed a time gate and traversed dimensions etc).
Possibly. The other possibility--the one I prefer--is that everyone in Zeal seemed to perceive normal elemental magic as primative. They did dismiss the energy of the Sun Stone as soon as they got their hands on Lavos' as a power source. Since their magic is not fully innate but powered by the Mammon Machine, they are utilizing Lavos's own magical energy as magical power, and as such would view it to be more powerful and superior to the "primative elemental magic."

Magus and Schala can do so much more because unlike Crono and the gang they have had years, if not decades, of experience with magic, whereas Crono, Marle, Lucca, and Frog had, at most, six months worth of experience.

Magus_Brokenhart

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Re: Question about shadow magic.
« Reply #6 on: May 06, 2007, 01:21:14 am »
Maybe only super beings like the planet and Lavos can hone shadow magic well enough to create gates. If any human could hone shadow magic to that degree, it would be Magus. Didn't they say that Janus had greater powers than the already impressive Schala? Then you have to take how much he improved as the Magus...

CyberSarkany

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Re: Question about shadow magic.
« Reply #7 on: May 10, 2007, 09:21:19 am »
Didn't Magus create some kind of gate in order to summon Lavos/get into his PD?

Kyronea

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Re: Question about shadow magic.
« Reply #8 on: May 10, 2007, 09:36:04 am »
Didn't Magus create some kind of gate in order to summon Lavos/get into his PD?
No. That Gate was created by Lavos, as evidenced by Magus' pissed off reaction. Presumeably Lavos was summoned through other means, and the summoning was partially interrupted.

CyberSarkany

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Re: Question about shadow magic.
« Reply #9 on: May 11, 2007, 07:29:23 am »
So what was he doing? Just standing there and wait for Lavos to open a gate?
If he didn't create the gate, he at least had to have some contact with Lavos, making him angry or something, in order to make Lavos open a gate. Magus somehow had to control the gate in order to get to Lavos, or he would be send to another era like it happend when he was interrupted by Crono and co and didn't have time to control it.

Maybe he wasn't able to get to Lavos through the gate in the Lavos-Timeline and was send to another era, but then he would still have to get Lavos attention somehow in order to make the gate appear. Another question would be, if he was sent to another era, why wasn't he sent to 12.000 BC like he was after being interrupted, because he was standing at the same spot after the fight with Crono and co(if the event horizont and stuff was the reason for him to end um in 12.000BC and Crono and co in Prehistory).

Kyronea

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Re: Question about shadow magic.
« Reply #10 on: May 11, 2007, 08:42:16 am »
So what was he doing? Just standing there and wait for Lavos to open a gate?
If he didn't create the gate, he at least had to have some contact with Lavos, making him angry or something, in order to make Lavos open a gate. Magus somehow had to control the gate in order to get to Lavos, or he would be send to another era like it happend when he was interrupted by Crono and co and didn't have time to control it.

Maybe he wasn't able to get to Lavos through the gate in the Lavos-Timeline and was send to another era, but then he would still have to get Lavos attention somehow in order to make the gate appear. Another question would be, if he was sent to another era, why wasn't he sent to 12.000 BC like he was after being interrupted, because he was standing at the same spot after the fight with Crono and co(if the event horizont and stuff was the reason for him to end um in 12.000BC and Crono and co in Prehistory).
Your entire argument relies on the idea that a Gate was required to bring Lavos out of his Pocket Dimension, as if there was not some other way to summon Lavos, which there most probably was. We have no evidence that Magus was truly capable of creating Gates or even controlling them. While Schala was capable of keeping the Gate in 12,000 B.C. shut, this seemed to be purely through the use of something that constricted physical space to prevent the Gate from opening, and remember, Magus had to have Schala do it...he did not do it himself, which suggests he can't.

CyberSarkany

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Re: Question about shadow magic.
« Reply #11 on: May 11, 2007, 11:46:26 am »
[...]and remember, Magus had to have Schala do it...he did not do it himself, which suggests he can't.
Or he didn't want to show his power to either Schala(who might recognize it) or the party. He was known to Schala as a prophet, not a magician.

For the gate thingy: He was still in his tower, and if he would summon Lavos any other way than via gate, he would get crushed by the tower when Lavos rises(the castle is the same location as the Death Mountain in the future and the Black Omen, meaning if Lavos would rise, it would be there). This of course implies that this summoning only means waking Lavos. But how would Magus going to face it? Of course, it can be a "not-explained" situation, but that's what hypothesis are for, trying to explain them.

Or maybe I didn't get what you mean by summoning.

Kyronea

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Re: Question about shadow magic.
« Reply #12 on: May 11, 2007, 12:01:15 pm »
Actually, to be honest, I have no idea how Magus was planning to summon Lavos. He had some method planned, perhaps some kind of teleportation of Lavos from his Pocket Dimension directly to his castle, but whatever the case, we don't know how he would do it. So while it's possible he could have used a Gate, I'm not seeing it, not with the evidence I mentioned earlier. We don't know precisely what kind of powers Magus showed to the Kingdom of Zeal as the Prophet, so we can't argue that he was trying to hide his capabilities when there is no evidence to suggest he would have to.

Zaperking

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Re: Question about shadow magic.
« Reply #13 on: May 12, 2007, 05:11:58 am »
Actually, to be honest, I have no idea how Magus was planning to summon Lavos. He had some method planned, perhaps some kind of teleportation of Lavos from his Pocket Dimension directly to his castle, but whatever the case, we don't know how he would do it. So while it's possible he could have used a Gate, I'm not seeing it, not with the evidence I mentioned earlier. We don't know precisely what kind of powers Magus showed to the Kingdom of Zeal as the Prophet, so we can't argue that he was trying to hide his capabilities when there is no evidence to suggest he would have to.

Err. I have to disagree :/
Magus did hide his powers, and his identity. The player and Crono and co were supposed to not know who the Prophet was, and neither did anyone in Zeal. The whole fact that Janus knows how to hide his power, and differs from Magus brings light to that point.
Furthermore, Magus probably got Schala to seal the gate especially so he wouldn't show his power, and so that also he could threaten Crono and co to Schala, and hence she wouldn't come back to reopen the gate if Magus did it himself.

But as for the Lavos summoning thing, I kind of agree. From the game evidence, however, it seems that he did have a way of summoning Lavos, and it was working, but maybe Lavos resisted it and caused the gate, or Magus was interrupted, who knows. Personally, I would have thought a giant gate would have opened up to bring Lavos in, just like how Dalton brings in the Golems.

Magus068

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Re: Question about shadow magic.
« Reply #14 on: May 13, 2007, 07:23:22 am »
If Schala can seal a time gate, wouldn't it be possible that Schala is a shadow innate?   What Schala did isn't any normal sealing & it might require a high level of magic potential & a deep knowledge in shadow magic.