Author Topic: Virginia Tech Massacre  (Read 8747 times)

Magus22

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Re: Virginia Tech Massacre
« Reply #75 on: April 19, 2007, 06:21:05 pm »
since even the quickest possible death through bladed weapons--decapitation--is not as quick as it might appear.

If you survive a decapitation some day, send me a postcard whenever you have the free time.



In response to VT, the media needs to stay the hell out of the students lives for the time being. These kids are shaken up, some lost friends, one lost a sibling, (some don't care) and the media comes to the rescue by interviewing them as they struggle through a conversation as tears are running down their faces with slurred speech. Not only that, but "oh yea thats right, our news company must be the first with news coverage of this incident, massacre, or tragedy, Tragedy!! oh it's brilliant!!!". On that day, you know how many different stories were conjured up from the many different media sources? It's sickening if you think hard about the implications. More food for the media though. The VT incident will die down eventually and people will soon forget about it. It's hot right now, because the media made it hot. The whole happening was unfortunate. This South Korean kid shot a professor with cerebral palsy. Low... very low...

You know, some teachers like having conversations like these with their students and having a "reflection" time for it. If we never had school shootings and terrorists attack, wars, etc... some of the individuals these days would have no clue what humanity, morals, and ethics are that apply to everyones life. You can't stop these school shootings, unless George Orwell's 1984 scenario is enabled.

There is a never ending chaos in this land that has yet to be stopped. It will never cease...

Kyronea

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Re: Virginia Tech Massacre
« Reply #76 on: April 19, 2007, 06:32:36 pm »

If you survive a decapitation some day, send me a postcard whenever you have the free time.
I did not mean to imply that decapitation did not result in death, merely that death via decapitation is just not as quick as you think. You do not instantly die when your head is cut off--you are aware of what is happening for at least a few seconds.

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In response to VT, the media needs to stay the hell out of the students lives for the time being. These kids are shaken up, some lost friends, one lost a sibling, (some don't care) and the media comes to the rescue by interviewing them as they struggle through a conversation as tears are running down their faces with slurred speech. Not only that, but "oh yea thats right, our news company must be the first with news coverage of this incident, massacre, or tragedy, Tragedy!! oh it's brilliant!!!". On that day, you know how many different stories were conjured up from the many different media sources? It's sickening if you think hard about the implications. More food for the media though. The VT incident will die down eventually and people will soon forget about it. It's hot right now, because the media made it hot. The whole happening was unfortunate. This South Korean kid shot a professor with cerebral palsy. Low... very low...
That's the media for you, at least corporate media. They make their money from ratings, and coverage of stories like this are always thrown in people's faces. I was interviewed on the scene by a local news authority and I quite literally punched the guy in the face thanks to his excessive and insenstive questioning of me...he just wanted a brief clip to show on the network, and I wouldn't have any of that.

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You know, some teachers like having conversations like these with their students and having a "reflection" time for it. If we never had school shootings and terrorists attack, wars, etc... some of the individuals these days would have no clue what humanity, morals, and ethics are that apply to everyones life. You can't stop these school shootings, unless George Orwell's 1984 scenario is enabled.

There is a never ending chaos in this land that has yet to be stopped. It will never cease...
Is there a way? Yes, there actually is. We simply have to provide food, water, shelter--all the neccesities of life--to all freely, without running out of any of that. That alone would cut poverty significantly.

Unfortunately, the sheer amount and sophistication of the technology required to produce this freely is simply too far beyond us right now. We can simply do the best we can with what we do have.

Burning Zeppelin

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Re: Virginia Tech Massacre
« Reply #77 on: April 19, 2007, 10:18:59 pm »
So, what can we do? The best we can do is raise our children not to use violence except as a last resort--and then the absolute minimum necessary--and to target and eliminate the causes of violent crime, such as poverty. Until we can truly examine ourselves more closely that's the best we can do.
That - "as a last resort" - is the problem. Many automatically think that all other possible solutions have been exhausted, and then go to use violence.

But yes, it probably is a cultural thing. Bigotry and class distinctions won't go away for a while, and neither will wealth gap.

Kyronea

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Re: Virginia Tech Massacre
« Reply #78 on: April 19, 2007, 10:25:08 pm »
That - "as a last resort" - is the problem. Many automatically think that all other possible solutions have been exhausted, and then go to use violence.

But yes, it probably is a cultural thing. Bigotry and class distinctions won't go away for a while, and neither will wealth gap.
The two are linked...different cultures and subcultures will affect how people react towards others. I, for instance, am pacifistic because I believe that all sentient beings are deserving of life, equal opportunity in that life, and are never beyond redemption. I was raised that way, or at least in that direction. Others are raised differently, and thus react towards people accordingly.

As for this specific case, the shooter showed various signs of mental illness. I frankly believe that one definite restriction upon firearms--and other weaponry--should be the illegalization of the mentally ill owning firearms, as they would not be able to own them without risking harm to themselves or others, as we have seen in the case of this massacre.

That said, we'd probably want to establish somewhat of a tiered system for defining mental illness, the amount of mental illness--say, you have merely minor hallucinations at random times versus full on schizophrenia--and the resulting ability to own firearms safely, and thus judge what firearms might be available accordingly, so we do not disenfranchise those who may only have slight traces of a mental illness.

ZeaLitY

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Re: Virginia Tech Massacre
« Reply #79 on: April 20, 2007, 01:40:23 pm »
CNN hosted an editorial face-off between some guy with the last name Plate and Ted Nugent. Plate wants to totally eliminate the right to bear arms:

http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/04/18/commentary.plate/index.html

The Nuge wants to totally allow the right to bear arms anywhere:

http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/04/19/commentary.nugent/index.html

What's interesting here is that Plate seems to make an appeal to emotion or empathy, but provides no evidence or solutions, or forethought for a gun solution. Nugent, on the other hand (who has his own share of problems), brings up several cases in which a legally armed person stopped a shooting spree.

Now, I can't make this post without appearing to endorse one side, but my point is, I'd like to see more science and constructive solutions. For being an extreme right-winger, Nugent is making a valid point, and Krispin's evidence of program failure is pretty compelling.

As a person totally uninitiated to the gun control issue, I'm surprised that empirical evidence is cutting through one side of the argument so effortlessly. Is there something I'm missing?

Hadriel

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Re: Virginia Tech Massacre
« Reply #80 on: April 20, 2007, 04:38:51 pm »
Liberal versus Conservative
The liberal talking heads have been emphasizing gun control pretty much down the line. Nothing very creative from them, although one Seattle liberal radio talk show host pointed out that it would have taken a very, very strict set of gun laws to have thwarted this particular shooting, because of the particulars. However, the Mayor noted what I said yesterday: Gun control might not be able to prevent a particular shooting from occurring, but over time it will save lives statistically. A ban (partial or total) would have some net positive effect.

On gun-related crime, yes.  What about other crimes?

Suppose you banned guns entirely.  It becomes much harder to get guns, and gun-related crime goes down.  Meanwhile, the number of crimes that could have been stopped by a gun skyrockets, since many of them don't actually require a gun to commit.  Is that a price worth paying?

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The conservatives have been emphasizing the immigration angle, and, apparently as a defense to the attacks on gun rights now underway, they have also been spinning the murder as overhyped. One right-wing radio talk show host in Seattle said today that people are driving this event way out of proportion, because more people die every day in this country from things like car wrecks than they do from shootings. So, he reasoned, what is all the fuss? (He's actually got a point, except for two things. One, a more calm public reaction will do nothing to prevent these shootings from happening. Two, the "fuss" is that premeditated murder is a more culturally harmful event than a car wreck.) A few minutes later the radio host started saying that illegal immigrants come into the country, infest our cities with crime, shoot police officers, and who knows what else--because at that point I turned off the radio. He's a bullshitting bastard, and it is scary that so many people feel the same way as him right now.

Here in Texas, we see a lot of illegal immigration.  And I hate to break it to you, but the guy has a point on the crime angle.  Though given the fact that such a comment was immediately followed by "shoot police officers," you're quite right in assuming that the only reason he's saying that is because he's a retarded fuck.

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Dehumanizing Diversions
It came out today that the killer left a letter raging against women, rich kids, campus debauchery, and perhaps some other things. I suggest to you all that these elements of the story are a diversion. They are meant to dehumanize the criminal and make it easier for us to think less critically about why this shooting occurred and how it can be prevented. In other words, the hype surrounding these details is our pop culture's own numbskulled attempt to cope with the tragedy in its own numbskulled way. Don't fall for it. We should assume that the killer was a human being just like the rest of us, and that whatever grievances drove him to this crime were at least somewhat based in society. I am not saying that we should absolve him of his legal responsibility for these crimes, but I am saying that a wiser society will look first at itself when one of its people goes bad, and only second will it look at the person who committed the crime.

This is another thing I hate to say, but the killer actually has a bit of a point; to some degree, it is society's fault.  That hardly constitutes a reason to commit mass murder, but according to everything I've read about him, he was shunned and mistreated constantly throughout his life.  There's only so far you can push someone before they'll snap.  Unfortunately, this is a problem that has to be fixed at the social level.

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The Second Amendment
Scrap it. If people want to have guns, let them damn submit to some regulation. I don't necessarily support a total gun ban, but neither do I support a Constitutional Amendment worded so broadly that right-wingers (and libertarians) falsely construe it to mean that private citizens should check their own government with the threat of violence. That is absurd in today's world.

Given the size of our country and the probable mass of defections, it might actually be possible to contest the government with guerrilla warfare to some extent, though I don't hold out much hope for such a revolution actually toppling it.  If anything, by becoming an outfit of tyranny the government would end up virtually shutting down the economy, bringing its scheme to a grinding halt in fairly short order.  Violence may be a solution, but it's rarely the best one.

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Illegal Guns
To those who keep arguing that outlawing guns will give criminals absolute power over the rest of us, stop being deliberately dense. For one thing, the authorities would still be armed, and they are ones best equipped to deal with all of this. For another thing, the implicit argument behind arming private citizens is that they will be able to defend themselves and others against armed criminals. Gun battles between private citizens is a very bad solution! Most people would be overwhelmed by adrenaline and would make bad decisions in the heat of a gun battle. I know many of you around here feel bold, smart, and able to function well under pressure. I also know that many of you are none of those things. So it is with the rest of society. If more people brought guns to a shootout, unintentional shootings would soar. Think of the chaos! At the time of the shooting, you have no information about what is going on...yet you expect to make sound decisions about who to shoot? Bullshit. Life is seldom that easy.

The implicit argument behind letting the authorities handle everything is that they know best in every situation.  All one has to do is look at the violence that goes on in many of our major cities to see that this is hardly the case.  Of course, I don't trust other people to make those types of decisions, either, which is why I believe that mandatory gun training really ought to be instituted in order to purchase firearms.

So too are England, Singapore, Germany...and Canada. I looked it up. All of these are countries with significant gun restrictions, and all of them have a far lower rate of intentional gun violence than does the United States.

And all feature cultures that are quite different from ours.  If I lived in one of those countries, I wouldn't mind not being able to arm myself, since I probably wouldn't need to.  Over here?  Not a chance.  I don't know why, but this country seems to be particularly vicious even when guns aren't involved.

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There does seem to be a cultural factor in play. Some societies are simply far more averse to gun violence than others, without regard to restrictions on guns. We have a violent, freewheeling, vigilante culture in many parts of America. But, dash it all, we also have a whole friggin' lot of guns.

I was about to mention that.  Japan's culture is quite subdued, generally speaking.  People are more focused on not fucking up their entire lives at the age of 15 to be bothered with the fine art of busting a cap in someone's ass.

Making guns illegal will not stop criminals from having guns. Criminals such as burglars. A home invasion is a situation in which a private citizen (the resident) owning a firearm can be of great benefit. If the burglar isn't armed, a hasty retreat is no doubt his response, thus minimizing the time spent burglarizing. If they are both armed, well, that's a bit trickier. Hopefully you manage to spot the burglar before he knows you're awake and armed. In such a scenario it doesn't matter if the police still have their guns because they won't be able to get there in time to help you.

And, statistically, you're more likely to use those home-protection guns to shoot a friend or family member than a burglar.

Even if I didn't have a great deal of trouble believing this, the mere presence of a gun is often enough to scare a criminal away.  In fact, this is what happens far more than the criminal actually getting shot.

cronopolis

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Re: Virginia Tech Massacre
« Reply #81 on: April 20, 2007, 05:16:55 pm »
Your last statement is true in that guns instell fear in those that are at the end of said gun, at the same time, those that obtain guns with the intent on purposely hurting innocent people for thier own selfish gain are empowered by the fact that they are holding fear in thier hands.  In a worst case senario, the one holding the gun with the intent to harm/kill a person has absolved all fear of anything in their heart and mind, thus allowing them to cross ethic boundries hardwired into the very nature of our being to the point where they are no longer a human, but a blood thirsty animal on the path to self destruction resulting in their emminent death upon subjugation of thier person......I have my smart moments of large words to 8)

Hadriel

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Re: Virginia Tech Massacre
« Reply #82 on: April 20, 2007, 06:16:37 pm »
In those cases, wouldn't the logical option be to have guns ready to deal with them before they commit massacres on this scale?

Burning Zeppelin

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Re: Virginia Tech Massacre
« Reply #83 on: April 20, 2007, 11:27:56 pm »
Though Ted Nugent brings up a good point that guns can stop gun related crime, it is a well known fact that prevention is better than cure. If gun control was far stricter, then I doubt the 8th grader would've been able to obtain a gun, and therefore there would've been no fatalities.

And what's he trying to say, take away the status of schools as gun-free zones? You don't need a gun to stop a shooter. Like he said in the one of his paragraphs, a good tackle could've stopped him in his tracks. I'm not sure what gun he was carrying, but I doubt it could hold more than 8 bullets, and I highly doubt he was such a good shot that he could've killed 8 people in that time (I'm talking about the second shooting).

This Ted Nugent guy seems like a fuck. "God-given rights"? "Pursuing the American Dream"? This guy is so right wing it makes Margaret Thatcher look like Lenin.

But seriously, I wouldn't feel safe at all if there were people carrying guns around in my school, just like how I wouldn't feel safe if there were security guards with guns on my plane.

ZeaLitY

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Re: Virginia Tech Massacre
« Reply #84 on: April 20, 2007, 11:33:15 pm »
Yes, he's radically right wing. That's what I alluded to when I said "has his own problems." There is a great leap of courage between shooting someone and tackling someone shooting at you and others.

Krispin has presented good evidence that prevention is not as easily obtainable as one might think.

Burning Zeppelin

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Re: Virginia Tech Massacre
« Reply #85 on: April 20, 2007, 11:37:01 pm »
Fair enough. But something just came to me. Didn't Cho get counseling for strange behaviour (stalking, voyeur photoes etc.), and didn't his teacher call the authority on his writings? I'm sure this is enough to not sell someone a gun.

EDIT: By the way, do we really need guns? What about tasers and other weapons that don't kill?
« Last Edit: April 20, 2007, 11:50:03 pm by Burning Zeppelin »

Leebot

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Re: Virginia Tech Massacre
« Reply #86 on: April 21, 2007, 01:08:29 am »
Fair enough. But something just came to me. Didn't Cho get counseling for strange behaviour (stalking, voyeur photoes etc.), and didn't his teacher call the authority on his writings? I'm sure this is enough to not sell someone a gun.
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He was actually involuntarily committed at one point, and judged by professionals. They indeed saw that there were problems with him and declared him a danger to himself and/or others. They decided that the best course of action was to treat him on an out-patient basis. This basically means that he wasn't confined to an asylum or hospital and could mostly go on with his life as normal, but had to see a psychologist/iatrist regularly.

And here's the problem: The law in Virginia prevents you from purchasing a gun if you've been committed and held - but not if you've been committed and released on an out-patient basis; even if you were declared a danger to yourself and/or others. You can see right here the problem with the law, and I highly suspect that this will change as a result.

EDIT: By the way, do we really need guns? What about tasers and other weapons that don't kill?

I've been pushing for that idea for a while; my particular favorite is guns that shoot tranquilizer darts. They fulfill the need for self-protection without posing a lethal threat. They don't fit the need for rebellion, but given the arms gap between the populace and the government anyway, it's not that big a difference.

Burning Zeppelin

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Re: Virginia Tech Massacre
« Reply #87 on: April 21, 2007, 01:16:05 am »
Fair enough. But something just came to me. Didn't Cho get counseling for strange behaviour (stalking, voyeur photoes etc.), and didn't his teacher call the authority on his writings? I'm sure this is enough to not sell someone a gun.

He was actually involuntarily committed at one point, and judged by professionals. They indeed saw that there were problems with him and declared him a danger to himself and/or others. They decided that the best course of action was to treat him on an out-patient basis. This basically means that he wasn't confined to an asylum or hospital and could mostly go on with his life as normal, but had to see a psychologist/iatrist regularly.

And here's the problem: The law in Virginia prevents you from purchasing a gun if you've been committed and held - but not if you've been committed and released on an out-patient basis; even if you were declared a danger to yourself and/or others. You can see right here the problem with the law, and I highly suspect that this will change as a result.
Too bad a massacre like this was needed for people to realize the fault in the rule.
EDIT: By the way, do we really need guns? What about tasers and other weapons that don't kill?
I've been pushing for that idea for a while; my particular favorite is guns that shoot tranquilizer darts. They fulfill the need for self-protection without posing a lethal threat. They don't fit the need for rebellion, but given the arms gap between the populace and the government anyway, it's not that big a difference.
I was thinking about that, but wouldn't tranquilizer darts be very expensive? (Not that tazers wouldn't)

Lord J Esq

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Re: Virginia Tech Massacre
« Reply #88 on: April 21, 2007, 02:57:01 am »
Krispin has presented good evidence that prevention is not as easily obtainable as one might think.

The pain and guilt at being bested in argument by (the noble and intelligent) Daniel Krispin has inspired me to look more into this. I still don't have the time to work it all out, so for now I shall have to snuggle with defeat, but I don't think his argument is quite as watertight as you give it credit for. There is a more complicated picture here, and what I see shows promise for the gun control factions.

He is right, though, that Canada had a program to restrict firearms that went over budget by several orders of magnitude (!), and that it became a national disgrace. But that's not an argument against gun control; that's a monument to ineffective government.

More to come; do not let the jury speak yet!

Leebot

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Re: Virginia Tech Massacre
« Reply #89 on: April 21, 2007, 02:59:07 am »
Let's see... pay through the nose or a few hundred extra deaths? The cost is worth it, especially when you consider that if you're using it for defense, you'd never expect to use more than a handful of shots ever. Now, I'd of course make an exception to the gun laws for hunters and farmers who might need to shoot pests, but they could only use guns appropriate for the task.