Author Topic: Virginia Tech Massacre  (Read 8692 times)

Lord J Esq

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Re: Virginia Tech Massacre
« Reply #15 on: April 17, 2007, 12:22:43 am »
Josh, I disagree with your assertion that guns are the easiest means of group murder to acquire. There is no waiting period or background check to purchase bleach or amonia, and the cost is dramatically higher for the firearm as well. Not to mention the ammunition. Guns are the most obvious, because they are easy to use.

Take away all the guns though, and you will start to see chlorine bombs and such. And say what you will about the danger of gunmen, you kill the gunman you end the threat. Have fun hiding behind a table from chlorine gas.

That is an appeal to emotion--a logical fallacy. Take away "all the guns," as you put it, and fewer people are going to carry out mass murder. Some inevitably will switch to other means, but the very reasons that keep those means from being the preeminent means employed today, will likewise ensure a drop in the overall incidents. You mention chemicals; sure, any old fool can get their hands on dangerous chemicals. But, for the reasons I mentioned in my larger post above, using chemicals to attack is less effective and more risky for the attacker, not to mention being harder to prepare for and harder to execute.

Burning Zeppelin

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Re: Virginia Tech Massacre
« Reply #16 on: April 17, 2007, 12:43:32 am »
Exactly; it is far easier and simpler for a potential murder to go "I have a gun, all I need to do is go and shoot", than "buy materials, risk getting caught before making it, making it, then go out and kill, and probably fail".

Hadriel

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Re: Virginia Tech Massacre
« Reply #17 on: April 17, 2007, 01:05:37 am »
How would a ban on firearms have stopped this?  If the guy wanted a gun, he'd get one, legal or not.

Nathan Jonas Jordison

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Re: Virginia Tech Massacre
« Reply #18 on: April 17, 2007, 01:22:28 am »
A gun ban, like hadriel said, would stop nothing. It would only bring easier access to guns. See since marijuana is illegal it's more fun to obtain and use because of the thrill. Making guns illegal would only give it a thrill and people would own more guns than necessary.

nightmare975

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Re: Virginia Tech Massacre
« Reply #19 on: April 17, 2007, 01:27:15 am »
So if we making killing legal, then no one would get the thrill?

Nathan Jonas Jordison

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Re: Virginia Tech Massacre
« Reply #20 on: April 17, 2007, 01:30:19 am »
Well in that case the thrill would turn into pure hate. Any dislike of another person would lead to death. That would cause more murders.

Burning Zeppelin

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Re: Virginia Tech Massacre
« Reply #21 on: April 17, 2007, 01:31:50 am »
How would a ban on firearms have stopped this?  If the guy wanted a gun, he'd get one, legal or not.
But the ease of acquiring a gun will be seen as an incentive to kill. We're not talking about terrorists here.

Hadriel

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Re: Virginia Tech Massacre
« Reply #22 on: April 17, 2007, 01:48:55 am »
Acquiring a gun is pretty damned easy regardless, thanks to the black market.

Now I'm all for tighter restrictions on gun ownership.  But taking them away outright won't accomplish anything.  It will very possibly lose more lives than it saves, by virtue of people not being able to defend themselves in their homes.

Quote
A gun ban, like hadriel said, would stop nothing. It would only bring easier access to guns. See since marijuana is illegal it's more fun to obtain and use because of the thrill. Making guns illegal would only give it a thrill and people would own more guns than necessary.

Speaking as someone who's smoked it before, I can tell you that the "thrill" of acquisition really has very little to do with it, except in the case of young teenagers.

Lord J Esq

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Re: Virginia Tech Massacre
« Reply #23 on: April 17, 2007, 01:57:45 am »
I won't speak for anybody else, but I haven't advocated a total gun ban. Even so, making all guns illegal would not cause gun use to increase. Legal bans may be ineffective for a hardcore segment of users, but they have their desired effect on the majority of the population.

Leebot

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Re: Virginia Tech Massacre
« Reply #24 on: April 17, 2007, 02:40:39 am »
I have to agree with Lord J here on the subject of gun control, and I'd like to point out something: Japan. Guns are completely illegal for civilians there, and even the black market has trouble getting them. There are still violent crimes, but they use bladed weapons for the most part. However, these violent crimes come with the drawbacks of bladed weapons, and there's rarely a massive slaughter carried out by a single individual (anime heroes excepted). The point here is that it is indeed possible to ban guns and benefit from it. It won't be easy, but it is possible.

There's just a couple problems. We have to remember why the Second Amendment is there in the first place. The primary reason at the time was that the government wasn't powerful enough to create a standing army to protect the nation, so they needed civilian militias to fill in the gap. Hence why the amendment states that the freedom to "bear arms and form militias shall not be infringed." Over time, that became no longer the case, and the government's army became more than sufficient.

So, why wasn't it taken off the books? We can't say for sure of course, but there are many who believe that some of the founding fathers (particularly Jefferson) believed that a time might come when the US government got too corrupt, and another revolution was needed. For that, the citizens needed a half-decent chance to be able to arm themselves against the government, hence why the amendment remained.

With the collosal power-grabs of the Bush administration in recent years, we're closer to this point than ever before, but we're not at it, and I doubt we'll get there this time around. The people realized what was going on in time, and voted a Democratic congress in, which would prevent any further power grabs. This does serve as a wake-up call though, that we have to be vigilant. We have to keep an eye on the government to make sure they don't try to take over. And when they do, it's our job to vote them out. If we're too late on that, then that's when we'll be thankful we have the Second Amendment.

Lord J Esq

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Re: Virginia Tech Massacre
« Reply #25 on: April 17, 2007, 02:47:44 am »
I wonder if firearms are not in fact obsolete as a method of revolution against the U.S. federal government. Arms firepower is no match for the government's vast security forces in all their boggling might. If there were a revolution, one of two things would happen: The government would utterly collapse without the need for much (if any) armed conflict, or the revolution would be crushed at an enormous cost in lives, economic stability, and civil function.

Joe000

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Re: Virginia Tech Massacre
« Reply #26 on: April 17, 2007, 04:01:06 am »
Why did no one commit these kind of school rampages 100 years ago?  Society has changed.  We've changed.  So yes, take away all the guns you like, write more laws regulating the use of weapons, become even more dependent on the government to save you from yourself.  But I agree with the Bard of Stratford when he said, "The fault...is not in our stars, but in ourselves" xD  Despite the pretentiousness of that quote, it's actually kinda apt.  Violence and its concomitant violent crime is a problem here in America, and it has nothing to do with the availability of weapons.

Kyronea

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Re: Virginia Tech Massacre
« Reply #27 on: April 17, 2007, 04:08:20 am »
While some of you might not be able to understand how people there feel, I most certainly can. Some of you may recall the Platte Canyon hostage situation last September?

If not, allow this to refresh your memory:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Platte_Canyon_High_School_shooting

That was my old high school and my sister's class, though thankfully she was home sick. My ex-girlfriend(but still good friend) was actually there, though, and the girl that was shot and killed? She was my sister's best friend.

I first heard about the events from customers in the drive-through--I was working at Wendy's at the time--and I had no idea who was there or what was going on. When I found out it was at my old high school, I was freaked out of my mind. My two sisters go to that high school and while I knew my sister Samantha was home sick I had no idea where Rachael was, what classrooom it was in, and so on and so forth. It was extremely scary, sad, and horrible.

You know what one of the worst parts about it was? The place where the hostage taker was camping near the school? That was a favorite river side spot for my girlfriend and me just the month before...had we not broken up and kept going, we might have run into the guy ourselves.

So, I can definitely understand how the parents and families of those murdered at Virginia Tech...it's not pleasant, to severely understate the situation.

Quote from: Lord J
I wonder if firearms are not in fact obsolete as a method of revolution against the U.S. federal government. Arms firepower is no match for the government's vast security forces in all their boggling might. If there were a revolution, one of two things would happen: The government would utterly collapse without the need for much (if any) armed conflict, or the revolution would be crushed at an enormous cost in lives, economic stability, and civil function.
Iraq is proof that our vast military couldn't hold down our own country...people find a way to get past even the best of military technology. I am firmly in favour of Second Amendment rights...the whole idea behind it is to protect the people from an oppresive government should the worst happen.

That said, I am also definitely in favour of doing the best we can to keep guns out of the hands of criminals. Background checks, waiting times, and other safeguards put into place to ensure that those purchasing firearms legally are law-abiding citizens are a definite must. On that same token, I also highly encourage that gun safety and gun use classes are required for any gun owner so they know what they're doing with it.

Quote from: Joe000
Why did no one commit these kind of school rampages 100 years ago?  Society has changed.  We've changed.  So yes, take away all the guns you like, write more laws regulating the use of weapons, become even more dependent on the government to save you from yourself.  But I agree with the Bard of Stratford when he said, "The fault...is not in our stars, but in ourselves" xD  Despite the pretentiousness of that quote, it's actually kinda apt.  Violence and its concomitant violent crime is a problem here in America, and it has nothing to do with the availability of weapons.
One definite cause of violent crime is passion or sudden emotion, which is usually much more present in men than women. It's a problem with our society...we discourage the idea of men sharing their emotions and feelings, and by doing so we create a huge problem where so many men in an attempt to be "macho" will bottle up their feelings and then unleash them. That's why men tend to be much more violent. It's stupid and ridiculous, really, and ought to be changed if we want to reduce violent crime.

Of course that's just one reason...we've also got poverty, social inequality, and many other causes. Only by eliminating these causes can we truly eliminate violent crime. Guns don't kill people...people kill people, and if they are intent on killing someone they will find a way.

Burning Zeppelin

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Re: Virginia Tech Massacre
« Reply #28 on: April 17, 2007, 08:15:23 am »
Civilian militia can quite often equal the force of a standing army. The Bangladesh Independence War is proof of that.

@Joe100: Well, maybe because guns weren't so great back then. And, as you said, society has changed. Well, maybe society has to change once more.

ZeaLitY

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Re: Virginia Tech Massacre
« Reply #29 on: April 17, 2007, 11:39:16 am »
It is unnerving to be able to find the victims on Facebook.

Looks like the heat is off Alberto Gonzalez for a couple days...

The Wikipedia article has been the best source of news, as editors are poring over independent sources to present them there. It's nice to see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virginia_Tech_massacre#International_reaction .