Author Topic: Virginia Tech Massacre  (Read 10411 times)

Burning Zeppelin

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Virginia Tech Massacre
« on: April 16, 2007, 10:06:04 pm »
Ergh, these shootings have got to stop. I don't need to be told that these are actually very uncommon and that the media just hypes the issue up, but it's one too many. What should we do to nurture the people into becoming a better society?

Ramsus

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Re: Virginia Tech Massacre
« Reply #1 on: April 16, 2007, 10:23:41 pm »
Give them a way to violently express themselves without harming themselves or others?

Paleontole

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Re: Virginia Tech Massacre
« Reply #2 on: April 16, 2007, 10:43:17 pm »
It's horrible, I can't even imagine, or want to, what it's like to be a parent and know you have a kid or friend going to Virginia Tech. It's not a matter of it being uncommon, or having the media hype it up, because having it happen once is one time too many. For whatever unfortunate reason, we're now in the era of people not only being suicidal, but having the urge to take other people down with them in the process. I'm not even sure what else to say, it's astounding to me that anyone would do this.

Give them a way to violently express themselves without harming themselves or others?

Mandatory paintball  :o

SergeTheRadicalDreamer

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Re: Virginia Tech Massacre
« Reply #3 on: April 16, 2007, 11:13:53 pm »
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/17/us/17virginia.html?pagewanted=2&_r=1
Ehh, it makes me feel sick that after the first round of shootings the campus wasnt shut down.  Just because the gunman had supposedly "left campus" there was no reason to suspect that he wouldnt come back, and at any rate a school should shut down after a tragedy like that.  But I cant be too angry with the faculty, they are hurting just as much as everyone else.  Man, this is really sad to hear about...

Lord J Esq

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Re: Virginia Tech Massacre
« Reply #4 on: April 16, 2007, 11:23:06 pm »
How do we prevent stuff like that? It is a difficult question. Abstractly, we have three elements to work with: 1) The idea itself of committing public slaughter in a specific way; 2) The motive to do so; 3) The means to do so. A person needs all three of those--and only those--in order to be able to shoot up a group of people.

The first part of that lethal equation--the idea itself--is the hardest to prevent without either infringing upon people's core civil liberties, or consigning them to ignorance--or both. Frankly, I'm not even sure it's possible. Imagining slaughter is pretty easy, because images of it have abounded in our culture, in every culture, since the dawn of civilization. And, in a more philosophical sense, I think we would lose an important part of our humanity by not being able to envision acts of destruction--an ability that sits at the core of human ethics.

The second part--the motive--is probably the easiest to address on paper, because it requires only a single dictum--to be applied to all facets of our society, from parents to television show producers: "Raise good children." The problem is that we don't know how to do that at the collective level, and it has to be at the collective level. It won't matter how fine an individual child is raised to be if he or she is not compatible with society at large. Trouble would be inevitable. Only a society where the parts are raised in the context of the whole will people have a good chance of not becoming disgruntled, embittered, despondent, or even murderous. And here's a twist to thicken the stew: To get there, people would have to give up many liberties that we now take for granted (especially in the United States). To frame it outside of a conservative mindset, it would require a significant evolution in the fabric of our culture--and in the minds of individuals. But, short of accomplishing this lofty goal completely, I do believe we can make great strides toward accomplishing it partially. I don't want to get into the thick of that stuff here, because it'll inevitably cause political arguments, but you can imagine the sorts of things I'm talking about: Raise literacy, support troubled kids, discourage bigotry (sorry, fat-haters), reduce poverty, provide structure for kids to express their energies, increase state authority to override incompetent parents, and so on. Unfortunately, all of those things are either expensive, progressive, authoritarian, or even some combination of the three, and are certain to generate opposition.

Sadly, this means it is all but certain that some people--too many--will be able to envision mass slaughter, and will eventually, through life's experiences, develop the motive to commit such an act. All we have left is to ignore our instincts to nurture that person, and instead stop them from carrying out their scheme...the third part of our three-part equation to murder. Now this is simple: If you meant to kill a lot of people, what tools would you want to have? That's easy: Guns. They are widely available and deadly effective. They give you an almost absolute physical advantage over those who do not have them, and the rudiments of their use are easily learned. Other methods of mass murder--chlorine bleach, vehicles, bladed weapons--are much less likely to occur to a would-be killer because they are variously harder to get, harder to use, less effective, or low in utility. The single biggest thing we could do to prevent mass murder with a minimum abrogation of the liberties of the people, is to make guns much harder to bear, and harder still to keep.

Gun control. So it comes down to that. There is no single policy that would have a wider-reaching, more immediate, less costly effect.

ZeaLitY

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Re: Virginia Tech Massacre
« Reply #5 on: April 16, 2007, 11:27:12 pm »
No single statue short of some Draconian restriction or activity will prevent civil shootings. A shooting is a problem of society manifesting itself. If you want to try, then at the university level provide on-location counseling and depression support services; at the personal level, care for your friends if they are suffering from a deep issue; at the societal level, improve the way the world works to ensure quality of life and justice for all. But as it stands, there is no one-shot legislation for combating cretinism. The former largest U.S. massacre inspired Texas to enable civilians to carry concealed weapons with ease, though I haven't had time to research whether any changes in violence have occurred as a result. It's a creative solution, but one that needs close observation to measure its worth.

I'm posting this before reading Lord J's post, which was made during this draft's creation.

Paleontole

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Re: Virginia Tech Massacre
« Reply #6 on: April 16, 2007, 11:30:39 pm »
How do we prevent stuff like that? It is a difficult question. Abstractly, we have three elements to work with: 1) The idea itself of committing public slaughter in a specific way; 2) The motive to do so; 3) The means to do so. A person needs all three of those--and only those--in order to be able to shoot up a group of people.

And unfortunately these things are big in the news. So now people see this as a way to let this type of violence out on others, and heck, maybe even make big enough a splash to get on the national news like this one and Columbine. Sick, but it seems to be true.

Gun control. So it comes down to that. There is no single policy that would have a wider-reaching, more immediate, less costly effect.

I don't really see that as an answer. So you take away guns. That leaves knives, explosives, and plenty other tools of murder, not to mention if guns were made illegal, the smuggling and what not would be rampant.

Lord J Esq

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Re: Virginia Tech Massacre
« Reply #7 on: April 16, 2007, 11:33:44 pm »
I don't really see that as an answer. So you take away guns. That leaves knives, explosives, and plenty other tools of murder, not to mention if guns were made illegal, the smuggling and what not would be rampant.

All of these things are variously available today--yet people overwhelmingly eschew them in favor of guns. The logic is that by eliminating the easiest means to an end, fewer people will reach their end.

Paleontole

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Re: Virginia Tech Massacre
« Reply #8 on: April 16, 2007, 11:36:00 pm »
I don't really see that as an answer. So you take away guns. That leaves knives, explosives, and plenty other tools of murder, not to mention if guns were made illegal, the smuggling and what not would be rampant.

All of these things are variously available today--yet people overwhelmingly eschew them in favor of guns. The logic is that by eliminating the easiest means to an end, fewer people will reach their end.

Yes, making it harder will drop off some of the people who are just barely over the edge towards doing something like this. But there will still be those that are just intent on killing others along with themselves. The gun-control thing is also a slippery slope, do you mean banning all guns? Some? If you look at it that way, guns will become the new alcohol like the 1920's.

Lord J Esq

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Re: Virginia Tech Massacre
« Reply #9 on: April 16, 2007, 11:45:21 pm »
Yes, making it harder will drop off some of the people who are just barely over the edge towards doing something like this. But there will still be those that are just intent on killing others along with themselves. The gun-control thing is also a slippery slope, do you mean banning all guns? Some? If you look at it that way, guns will become the new alcohol like the 1920's.

I am curious to see how you would support those statements.

Burning Zeppelin

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Re: Virginia Tech Massacre
« Reply #10 on: April 16, 2007, 11:46:55 pm »
I don't really see that as an answer. So you take away guns. That leaves knives, explosives, and plenty other tools of murder, not to mention if guns were made illegal, the smuggling and what not would be rampant.
Yes, because you can just walk into a shop and buy explosives. I don't think you realize how much more effective guns are as a tool of murder than knives and explosives; more than explosives especially if the attack is a personal one. And do you really think he could've killed 33 people with a knife?

Just a quick look over statistics, apparently "between 1994 and 1999, there were 220 school associated violent events resulting in 253 deaths - - 74.5% of these involved firearms. Handguns caused almost 60% of these deaths." (http://www.neahin.org/programs/schoolsafety/gunsafety/statistics.htm) In 1997, 10396 of the 15289 murders in the USA were caused by firearms. Outdated statistics, I know, but relevant nonetheless.

We're not talking about making guns totally illegal. We're talking about a more effective way into keeping guns out of the wrong hands.

Paleontole

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Re: Virginia Tech Massacre
« Reply #11 on: April 17, 2007, 12:00:16 am »
We're not talking about making guns totally illegal. We're talking about a more effective way into keeping guns out of the wrong hands.

Nothing wrong with that, but what would be a more effective way?

Burning Zeppelin

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Re: Virginia Tech Massacre
« Reply #12 on: April 17, 2007, 12:12:52 am »
I'm not sure actually. Higher regulation and stricter gun control is obviously a solution, but what with the gun culture and all, and the Second Amendment, many American's will talk about infringement of their rights and constantly believe that loose gun ownership laws prevent - not cause - crime. They will also say it will protect them from invading forces....

But who am I to talk, I'm not even American.

Radical_Dreamer

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Re: Virginia Tech Massacre
« Reply #13 on: April 17, 2007, 12:17:19 am »
Josh, I disagree with your assertion that guns are the easiest means of group murder to acquire. There is no waiting period or background check to purchase bleach or amonia, and the cost is dramatically higher for the firearm as well. Not to mention the ammunition. Guns are the most obvious, because they are easy to use.

Take away all the guns though, and you will start to see chlorine bombs and such. And say what you will about the danger of gunmen, you kill the gunman you end the threat. Have fun hiding behind a table from chlorine gas.

Paleontole

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Re: Virginia Tech Massacre
« Reply #14 on: April 17, 2007, 12:21:28 am »
I'm not sure actually. Higher regulation and stricter gun control is obviously a solution, but what with the gun culture and all, and the Second Amendment, many American's will talk about infringement of their rights and constantly believe that loose gun ownership laws prevent - not cause - crime. They will also say it will protect them from invading forces....

But who am I to talk, I'm not even American.

I'm not sure either, it's a hard subject to tackle. I'm not arguing with anything you or Lord are saying, I just have a preference of bypassing gun control and more laws to trying to look at the issues at hand that make people do things like this, kind of like the things Zeality discusses. If we can try and find solutions to those, I think it could be more effective than any law. I might be underestimating some things, but I think others are underestimating just how far some people are willing to go when they aren't thinking clearly, or are psychologically/emotionally unstable.

And what's sad is that politically, both sides will use this either pro/con on this issue. Gun control advocates will say this is self explanatory for more restriction, and on the other side I read a headline somewhere "campus gun ban disarmed virginia victims", I mean...come on.