Author Topic: Marle's Great^12-Grandmother Paradox  (Read 4293 times)

Drumguy074

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Marle's Great^12-Grandmother Paradox
« on: December 11, 2003, 03:10:09 am »
I have been thinking about this for a couple of days, and was trying to decide if Magus would actually be able to change his past.  In other words, was he doing something completely different than what happened during the first time he witnessed the events in Zeal, or was he merely playing out a roll that had already happened?

This boils down to the question of whther or not the past can truly be changed,  or will history turn out as it should because you tried to change it?

Drumguy074

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Marle's Great^12-Grandmother Paradox
« Reply #1 on: December 11, 2003, 03:17:08 am »
I just thought of a good example as I was posting my last theory.  When you travel back to 600 AD, Guardia is at war with Magus.  Guardia still exists in 1000 AD, so clearly Guardia should triumph over Magus.  The second time you visit 600, you must help a dessimated Guardian military fight back the troops of Magus.  Had you not shown up, wouldn't it stand to reason that Magus and his army of mystics would have defeated Guardia and taken over the kingdom?

It seems to me that the only part of history you can actually change in the game is whether or not Lavos is defeated.

ZeaLitY

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Marle's Great^12-Grandmother Paradox
« Reply #2 on: December 11, 2003, 06:08:01 pm »
Magus' disappearance due to the Lavos summoning was nigh at hand anyway; the Mystics would have fallen apart even if they had crossed Zenan bridge.

GrayLensman

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Marle's Great^12-Grandmother Paradox
« Reply #3 on: December 12, 2003, 10:13:56 pm »
Quote from: Drumguy074
I have been thinking about this for a couple of days, and was trying to decide if Magus would actually be able to change his past. In other words, was he doing something completely different than what happened during the first time he witnessed the events in Zeal, or was he merely playing out a roll that had already happened?

This boils down to the question of whether or not the past can truly be changed, or will history turn out as it should because you tried to change it?


Magus' experience as the prophet is the best example of time travelers actually changing the past.  His childhood memories as shown in the flashback on North Cape are different than what you witness in the Ocean Palace.  The timeline which produced Magus was not the same as the one produced by Crono and Magus' actions.

warmgun

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Marle's Great^12-Grandmother Paradox
« Reply #4 on: December 13, 2003, 05:47:21 pm »
I think there is no question that time changes.  Porre's mayor becoming generous, saving Crono's life with the Time Egg, defeating Lavos in 1999 AD, Robo reviving Fiona's forrest, etc.

The Chrono series  has these rules setup to avoid the paradox that seems to exist here.  I'd like to think that it isn't time related.  However, the game's plot is interrupted to give s a little logical explanation of what the grandfather paradox is.  Remember the four Marles and the enemy killing off the first one, causing the rest to disappear?  Why would they put all that crap in there?

JustinS1985

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Marle's Great^12-Grandmother Paradox
« Reply #5 on: December 13, 2003, 06:00:09 pm »
Lucca just explained what she perceived was happening.  She had no concept of the Entity, or any other reason that Marle would dissapear.  She was so excited about traveling through time that she immediately assumed the grandfather paradox was the reason.  As zeality said earlier if Marle had truly unmade herself then Chrono never would have had a chance to travel back in time to save her.

ZeaLitY

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Ouch.
« Reply #6 on: December 13, 2003, 07:09:48 pm »
We have a bit of complication that arose after I made an outright challenge to detractors who claimed Trigger was rife with plot holes. At first I thought this may be covered by warmgun's 'whose past no longer exists' axiom, but that only applies to memory. Here's the juice:

Quote from: rotorkid
I have a bit of a theory on some of the events that happen throughout Chrono Trigger and Cross. I think that for all purposes of having an enjoyable game, there is time that sort of transcends time in the sense that things like Marle disappearing, or the Chronopolis appearing in the past don't happen instantly like they really should but rather, take a certain amount of time before they occur. I also noticed this when you defeat Lavos in Trigger the proper way, then Doan and Robo still exist, even though the future should be changed instantly and they would disappear. Obviously they used this so that they could stretch the rules of time travel.


The Marle paradox can now almost entirely be explained by the Entity; although this may externally appear like a case of gods transcending science, the reasons for the Entity's detaining are clear and purposeful.

My answer to the above problem: let us work under the Axioms & Corollaries definition of timelines. If the heroes of time battled Lavos in a time period other than 1000 A.D., returning to that period would mean Keystone T-1 would have instantly transpired and become Keystone T-2, as the heroes were temporarily displaced outside of time, allowing it to flow naturally. This would suggest that perhaps Doan and Robo do exist in Keystone T-2's future.

Unfortunately, this is traveling out of bounds. It is generally presumed that Squaresoft did not have Cross planned out, which is especially supported by the vagueness of Radical Dreamers. Thus, the 1000 A.D. Crono returns to is Keystone T-1. This suggests that the Rise of Porre did not occur in Keystone T-1, as Doan still exists.

Unfortunately, this is also traveling out of bounds, and the future was most likely not planned by Square. My only justification for this that I can offer is that despite the Rise of Porre, the Guardia line continues and Doan is able to live.

Unfortunately, for the Guardia line to continue, Marle and Crono would have to live -- however, they are dead in Chrono Cross before the dimensions are restored, an event that succeeds 1000 A.D. Our only shred of hope may lie in the fat that Crono, Marle, and Lucca are only said to be dead in Home World, where they reveal such on Opassa Beach prior to fighting the Time Devourer. If Another World is the true timeline, Marle and Crono may have lived and been able to continue the Guardia line, to the delight of those who assert Guardia retained its status as a country or province in spite of Porre's militarism.

GrayLensman

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Re: Ouch.
« Reply #7 on: December 13, 2003, 08:07:14 pm »
The version of Doan who Lucca brings to 1000 AD is not from the ruined future.  That Doan would have been sent into the Tesseract the instant Lavos was deveated.  Lucca warped to the new, good future and brought that version of Doan back with her.  This makes sense since the origninal Doan didn't know of the travelers' quest to defeat Lavos and would have no way of knowing the outcome of the final battle.  The new Doan would have seen historical records of Lavos' defeat  by the hands of the travelers (Day of Lavos Record).

rotorkid

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Marle's Great^12-Grandmother Paradox
« Reply #8 on: December 13, 2003, 08:16:31 pm »
That's true GrayLensman, but what I meant when I said that I thought it was strange that Doan still exists at the end of the game is this: Chrono and Marle continue the line of Guardia, so if the case of them all dying is true, then he wouldn't exist. If they weren't killed (fingers crossed) then I would think that he shouldn't be such a raggedy looking old man anymore. And in response to his knowing of their exploits. Everyone knew of their exploits because Lucca told them, hence all of the different ancestors and descendents being there.

GrayLensman

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Marle's Great^12-Grandmother Paradox
« Reply #9 on: December 13, 2003, 09:12:08 pm »
At that time (2300 AD) would the Time Crash have happened yet?  There must be some intermediate timeline between Lavos' defeat and 2400 AD in which the time Crash had not yet occurred.  Perhaps Guardia did not fall in this intermediate timeline and the royal line was preserved.  Lucca would have warped into this timeline.  Then, once 2400 AD rolled around, the Time Crash occurs and changes the past in 7600 AD, creating a new timeline where Porre conquered Guardia and the fates of Marle and Crono are uncertain.

As for Doan's appearance, the same old man sprite is used in all sorts of places, such as the Mayor of Choras, who is by no means raggedy.  I'll forgive the game designers for conserving space.

ZeaLitY

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Marle's Great^12-Grandmother Paradox
« Reply #10 on: December 14, 2003, 12:58:15 am »
This is minor enough to be considered a small exception, methinks. While it isn't the strongest support for the life of Crono and Marle, it nonetheless may add some probability to their survival.

Welcome to the Compendium, rotorkid! Another fine landing; we've got a sort of streak now with new members making interesting impacts on discussion.

YbrikMetaknight

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Marle's Great^12-Grandmother Paradox
« Reply #11 on: December 14, 2003, 02:14:39 pm »
I think it should be noted that the only people who would know the difference between this "intermediate timeline" (Keystone T-1 as we've called it before) and the post-Time Crash timeline (Keystone T-2) would be Belthazar and the staff of Chronopolis, since they caused the change in history, and anyone at the End of Time at that moment (most likely just Spekkio and Gaspar).

Therefore, Crono, Marle and Lucca probably landed in Keystone T-2 in the ending of CT.

ZeaLitY

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Marle's Great^12-Grandmother Paradox
« Reply #12 on: December 14, 2003, 02:43:33 pm »
I think it interesting that while Crono and the others celebrate their achievement at the fair, hell is brewing to the south...

Another gamefaqs forumer has lent a theory, which I will call the Time-Elasticity Theory.

Quote from: Christapo
As soon as time travel is allowed, you naturally run into problems with the grandfather/grandmother paradox, simply because you *can* do something.... But if we assume time travel to be possible, then there must be some reason as to why this paradox doesn't result in a time loop.

The obvious conclusion, despite the lack of good wording, is that time is not an 'instantaneous' fabric, on which events can influence the future immediately (sounds awful using temporal terminology, but there really aren't any other ways to say it). If time has an element of elasticity to it, so that things aren't immediate, then the paradox is solved, in a way, as the person will continue living, or something like that.


This may have repercussions when applied to other instances of time travel, but is nonetheless a good, limited explanation. I still think it odd in light of this theory that Marle would appear/disappear exactly upon Crono entering the room.

ZeaLitY

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Marle's Great^12-Grandmother Paradox
« Reply #13 on: December 31, 2003, 10:08:42 pm »
I've made a royal refution to a gamefaqs member who argues the paradox is temporal. I invite you to follow the argument if it continues so that we may refine our own theories.

Quote from: Igloo Bob
Quote from: ZeaLitY
However, we also know that time travelers are shielded from effects they wrought on their past! Thus, it would not matter either way, as the Grandfather Paradox does not apply, and the pendant would have only had one use on a time traveler who is shielded from the effects of her own meddling! Thus, Marle and her actions are preserved even though the item that caused them no longer exists in its past context.


I disagree. If that were the case, Marle would not have disappeared when she showed up in 600AD and Queen Leene was not found. In Chrono Trigger, while their memories do not change, the world around them, and sometimes they themselves, do. This is, in addition to what I already mentioned, shown in the Black Omen and in the alternate ending where Marle turns into a Frog.


Quote from: ZeaLitY
Then explain this, Igloo Bob.

Why does not Marle instantly disappear?
Why do the effects not pertain to Crono? Guardia not existing as it had would certainly mar his past as well.
Why can Lucca come in also? It would affect her.
Why doesn't Marle instantly reappear? Probability?

Why, then, does Lucca say otherwise?

JustinS1985: Lucca just explained what she perceived was happening. She had no concept of the Entity, or any other reason that Marle would dissapear. She was so excited about traveling through time that she immediately assumed the grandfather paradox was the reason. As zeality said earlier if Marle had truly unmade herself then Chrono never would have had a chance to travel back in time to save her.

Marle's Paradox raises too many questions and mortally wounds the plot unless it is simply resolved by Ockham's Razor. Why would something detain Marle? Why, to continue Crono's quest, of course! In the grand scheme of things, of course Leene would have to be there, but the questions above negate that time travelers who disrupt their own origins cease to exist in the Chrono series. The Entity

1. Made Leene's Bell ring
2. Created the gates
3. Set the events in order by having Marle go to 600 A.D.
4. Ultimately guided the party in some form to destroy Lavos

It is thus reasonable to believe that the Entity also here detained Marle. If Marle ceased to exist, why then would she have memories of the place she was held in?

If the effects apply instantly to Marle, why are Crono and Lucca immune? Thus, it seems that this is not a temporal paradox, but divine intervention of sorts. GrayLensman and bubblebobby2000 of the Chrono Compendium reveal more. GrayLensman: "The only purpose for Marle's disappearance was to preserve the Guardia royal line, which is very important. The supervisor and Doan had to exist so that the heroes could view the Day of Lavos record. Some agency made Marle disappear for this sole purpose, most likely the entity influencing history so that Lavos could be defeated." bubblebobby2000: "...On the Entity is where I'd put my money... He/She/It knows that if Marle is allowed to stay in 600AD Guardia, no one will look for Leene. The world can ill-afford Marle, a key member of the Heroes of Time, to phase out of existence if Leene had really been killed. So the Entity, whatever it was, sets up the situation for Crono to believe that Queen Leene must be saved, so that Marle will be free from the potential effects of her own action." Further proof is found in that Marle reappears upon Crono and Lucca's entrance, rather than as soon as Yakra is defeated and Queen Leene is saved.

Lastly, most of the endings are novelty, and the Successor of Guardia ending also has Marle exist as a normal human. Obviously she would feel the physiological changes of becoming a Frog, and her and Lucca's shock express this. Had the effects been instant and had they not been shielded from meddling with their own creation, being Frogs would come naturally to them, and they would not give it a thought.

ZeaLitY

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Marle's Great^12-Grandmother Paradox
« Reply #14 on: January 01, 2004, 03:41:45 pm »
Quote from: Igloo Bob
Why does not Marle instantly disappear?
Why do the effects not pertain to Crono? Guardia not existing as it had would certainly mar his past as well.
Why can Lucca come in also? It would affect her.
Why doesn't Marle instantly reappear? Probability?

I tend to believe the temporal inertia theory, as archived in BubbleBobby's Sea of Eden FAQ, which I'll copy and paste here:

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Temporal Inertia (by "jason79")
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Description
~~~~~~~~~~~

We all know what inertia is, right? It's the tendency of an object to
remain either at rest or in motion. But this is a little bit different
a notion. Current physics, relativity, and quantum mechanics have given
us a much better view of the universe itself, and have revealed a few
peculiar aspects of our universe.

We live in what's called a space-time continuum, three 'dimensions' of
space, one 'dimension' of time. I don't remember the exact details, and
I certainly don't want to try to get into them here, but there is
evidence that space and time are like two sides of the same coin. There
are certain aspects of space which have a corresponding temporal
equivalent, and vice versa. This gave me the idea that, if we have
spatial inertia, why not temporal inertia? With that question in mind,
let's re-examine the sequence of events I fondly call 'The Marle
Paradox.'

1000AD: Crono meets Marle. Marle has pendant. Pendant messes with
Telepods, opens a Time Gate, and Marle lands in 600 AD.

Let's follow her for a moment. Sometime after she arrives, Guardia
soldiers find her, mistake her for the missing Queen Leene, call off
their search for the queen, and take Marle back to the Castle. This is
the catalyst for the paradox, because the moment the soldiers find
Marle and call off the search, history has been changed. We can easily
conjecture the outcome: Leene is not found, Leene dies before bearing
children, thus no descendants, and thus no ancestors for Marle.

Thus no Marle. Uh oh. Which now means Crono doesn't meet her, her
pendant doesn't interfere with the Telepods, Marle doesn't travel back
in time (since she no longer exists at this point), the search for
Leene is then not called off, and we're back to the original history in
which Leene is found and eventually bears children. This is an infinity
loop; because of its very nature, this sequence will oscillate back and
forth between past and present forever. Not good.

(cont next post)

 
From: Igloo Bob | Posted: 12/31/2003 10:05:21 PM | Message Detail
Fortunately, this is not how things worked out. We know from playing
the game that Crono and Lucca work to restore the original history, and
they are successful.

The problem, though, is the logic here. All three of the children
landed in 600 AD as a direct result of Marle's pendant. Keep in mind
that had the pendant not been involved, none of them would have ever
seen 600 AD. But when history is suddenly changed, only Marle is
affected.

Some people have argued that this is because only Marle was a
descendant of Leene. This is logically unsound. We're dealing with time
travel here, not genetics, and until we have evidence to the contrary,
logic is the only way to approach this.

That in mind, logic dictates that not only should Marle disappear from
600 AD, but so should Crono and Lucca! Yet they don't. Why not? It's
because of Marle that they're there in the first place. If she's no
longer born in the future, then the pendant would never have been
brought near the Telepods, and the Gate would never have formed.

Obviously, Crono and Lucca don't disappear. So, working from the
assumption that this is a valid story, there has to be some explanation
for why they didn't disappear.

The answer is temporal inertia. Remember that Marle arrived before
Crono, who arrived before Lucca. Also, remember that Marle was born in
approximately 984 AD, while Crono and Lucca only recently were affected
by her presence. This means that, when Marle accidentally changes
history, she will be affected by the time change sooner than Crono and
Lucca.

My theory is that Crono and Lucca would have disappeared, but they
restored history before that happened. Temporal inertia explains how
they were able to remain in 600 AD long enough to correct the timeline.

If we were to witness Marle's departure from 1000, after however long
it took for the soldiers to find her and call off their search, we
would see an instantaneous change in 1000, because as far as 1000 is
concerned, 600 is done and gone. But from 600's point of view, the time
change is yet to occur. Because Crono, Marle, and Lucca are in the
past, they are not affected by the time change right away. But as I
said above, they will be affected, and Marle is affected first, because
she is directly related to Leene.

Imagine the time change as a linear event, passing through the four
centuries between 600 and 1000. We would see it reaching Marle's birth
before it reached the moment her pendant influenced the Telepods. This
explains why Crono and Lucca didn't disappear right when Marle did. Of
course, if we waited around long enough, we'd see Crono disappear too,
and a moment later Lucca.

However, while the time change is changing history, Crono and Lucca
have however long it takes for the change to travel from Marle's birth
to when she met Crono to restore history. Otherwise, they'll get stuck
in an infinity loop. If we're vague enough about the amount of time
Marle spent in 600 before Crono arrived, and about the amount of time
it takes for Crono and Lucca to find Marle and then rescue Leene, they
have enough time to find Leene and restore history before the time
change erases Marle's influence in 1000 AD. Once the timeline is
restored, the paradox is no longer a threat, which means neither Crono
nor Lucca will disappear, and which means Marle should reappear, just
as she did in Trigger.

The idea of Crono, Marle, and Lucca lasting for an unspecified amount
of time and then disappearing, as opposed to disappearing
instantaneously, is my idea of temporal inertia. They effectively
resist the change in their temporal momentum, but they ultimately can't
resist the change.


I'll refute this in due time. Compendium members, if you have anything to add to the refution, please include it. Although I haven't read his words yet, I'd much rather like to disprove his standpoint entirely that permit it to become a theory. In their efforts to explain the Marle paradox, many seek to add on time principles which aren't seen thereafter in the games.