Author Topic: The Imus Nonsense  (Read 7238 times)

ZeaLitY

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Re: The Imus Nonsense
« Reply #45 on: April 13, 2007, 12:03:34 am »
Well, just the opposite: I don't listen to shock jocks, and neither have I even seen Grindhouse or like Penn and Teller's style of in-your-face humor as my primary enjoyment. No, that belongs to surreal humor, I guess. But yeah! I hope the media circus is over. There was a ton of coverage today on some horse in Texas stuck in the mud today (other than focus on the green zone bombing).

Joe000

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Re: The Imus Nonsense
« Reply #46 on: April 14, 2007, 04:39:18 am »
Funny how this starts out as a thread about Imus and turns into a political thread.  I hate the Republitards and Democraps (durrr I'm funny ain't I? ;p ) with a fiery passion.  However, Ron Paul is running under the Republican ticket, so I may just have to register as a Republican so I can vote for him in the primary.

Lord J Esq

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Re: The Imus Nonsense
« Reply #47 on: April 14, 2007, 04:41:46 am »
You do that and I'll steal your nose. Don't think I won't do it!

Kyronea

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Re: The Imus Nonsense
« Reply #48 on: April 14, 2007, 04:50:22 am »
Funny how this starts out as a thread about Imus and turns into a political thread.  I hate the Republitards and Democraps (durrr I'm funny ain't I? ;p ) with a fiery passion.  However, Ron Paul is running under the Republican ticket, so I may just have to register as a Republican so I can vote for him in the primary.
So what exactly are your political beliefs, then, and why do you support Ron Paul? Curiosity prompts this question, nothing more.

Ramsus

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Re: The Imus Nonsense
« Reply #49 on: April 14, 2007, 01:00:44 pm »
Everyone's proud to say "I vote," but being a voting member in a party isn't doing much. Really, it's not even the bare minimum of our civil duties. Staying aware of what that party is doing and actively lending your voice and opinions to help shape that party's "platform" is something every citizen should be trying to do.

Something about party platforms always bothered me, and I wonder if we shouldn't have such all-encompassing party platforms to begin with. All that does in a two-party system is replace the views and beliefs of our elected officials with those of whatever special interest happens convince the party to support or whatever the party chooses as a strategically beneficial stance on a "hot-topic" issue. It's disappointing to vote in an honestly good individual into office, just to see him flounder and become ineffective.

So really, you might make more of a difference starting or fighting special interest groups instead of voting.

One thing I forgot to say--and important enough that I'll give it its own post: A political party is what its members make of it. The entrenched power structures are not immutable. All things change with time. That's why your attack on the Democratic Party based on its past history was so throwaway ridiculous.

The Republican Party has decayed badly since the religious fundamentalists infiltrated and came to dominate it. They are worse than the neoconservatives, by far--and the neocons, for their part, are just plain ugly. Together, these two factions have brought the party to its knees. Not that the old-style Republican of the mid-twentieth century was anything so grand and noble, but I'd rather deal with yesterday's Republicans than today's, if the choice were mine.

The Democratic Party has lost a lot of its economic populism, something we need to get back. And we've moved way to the center on social justice issues. Sadly, much of this is a result of the shift of all of America to the right. But to the extent a major political party can influence the terms of the debate, the Democrats have lost much of their old liberal glory, and are in sorry shape today.

But the Democratic brand is strong. For all those years of Republican attacks, many Americans still proudly identify with the party--more so than do with Republicans or independents of any stripe. It will be far, far, and stupendously easier to effect progressive change from within the Democratic Party than by outflanking the Dems on the left. And while those who are so inclined are welcome to do that, if more true liberals would unite behind the Democratic Party, the Party's leftward shift would be considerable and swift.

I'll tend to stick to the Republican side of things, simply because I feel it'd be easier to someday rid the Republican party of the religious right and neo-conservatives and move the party line towards more libertarian views on social issues than to try and fix the Democratic platform to be less socialist. I also believe it's a lot more important to do that, considering if you're in office and you're not a Democrat, you're probably a Republican.

But taxation is another issue to cover one of these days. My professor believes strongly that a unified sales tax is the panacea to all evils, and that in any case, the code needs to be simplified.

I strongly believe the same thing as your professor.

Taxation, eh? I believe in a combination of the national sales tax and Keynesian scaled income tax. Basically, the idea is for us to only charge the upper-middle class and higher with income tax, and allow the lower-middle class and below to simply be charged the sales tax. If it is worked out sufficiently, it will be much fairer to all. The rich have more money to use, so they should be taxed more, simply because it will not affect them as adversely as it might affect, say, a single mother working two jobs trying to support her children.

Read The Fair Tax Book by Neal Boortz and John Linder (and when I say that, I mean read the actual book, not a summary or the Wikipedia article). Part of their proposal with a national sales tax would be to reimburse every household the amount they would have paid at the poverty line, so households that are below the poverty line actually make money off of the deal.

You might not agree with the premise of the book, but I think it'd give you some more perspective and ideas when it comes to taxes. As with anything, remember to read it with a skeptical eye and a cynical mind.

Regardless of what we do though, It's my strong belief that the most important thing we have to do when it comes to taxes is simplify our tax laws.
« Last Edit: April 14, 2007, 01:04:30 pm by Ramsus »

Rydis

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Re: The Imus Nonsense
« Reply #50 on: April 14, 2007, 01:37:43 pm »
What he said was a statement to an entire team, not just to the blacks or whatever. This is a simple case where nothing actually *racist* was said. I have found that most people will take something out of context to make it racist because they want it to be. Gives the nappy-haired-ho's something to complain about.

Kyronea

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Re: The Imus Nonsense
« Reply #51 on: April 14, 2007, 11:32:34 pm »
Quote from: Ramsus
Read The Fair Tax Book by Neal Boortz and John Linder (and when I say that, I mean read the actual book, not a summary or the Wikipedia article). Part of their proposal with a national sales tax would be to reimburse every household the amount they would have paid at the poverty line, so households that are below the poverty line actually make money off of the deal.

You might not agree with the premise of the book, but I think it'd give you some more perspective and ideas when it comes to taxes. As with anything, remember to read it with a skeptical eye and a cynical mind.

Regardless of what we do though, It's my strong belief that the most important thing we have to do when it comes to taxes is simplify our tax laws.
I'll consider reading the book, though I don't know if I'll end up agreeing with it, because I really don't like the American Libertarian party nor do I like the ideals of economic libertarianism, but that's just me.

Still, I do agree with you on one thing: we definitely need to simplify our tax laws...they're too damned complicated no matter what they are.

Leebot

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Re: The Imus Nonsense
« Reply #52 on: April 15, 2007, 02:36:30 am »
Of course, I doubt you ever will simplify your tax laws. The problem is that the very people they're so complicated to benefit (The people rich enough to pay people to find all the loopholes to get out of paying taxes) are the same people rich enough to win elections. Sure, they'll promise to simplify it, but once they're in office, why should they?

Kyronea

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Re: The Imus Nonsense
« Reply #53 on: April 15, 2007, 02:40:27 am »
Of course, I doubt you ever will simplify your tax laws. The problem is that the very people they're so complicated to benefit (The people rich enough to pay people to find all the loopholes to get out of paying taxes) are the same people rich enough to win elections. Sure, they'll promise to simplify it, but once they're in office, why should they?
That would be part of the sad state of affairs that is our democracy...it's just not truly a democracy or a republic with the way things have been going. Question is, how do we fix it? The only way I could see would be to get some of us who want to change it rich enough to win elections so we actually can change it, but how likely is that ever to occur?

ZeaLitY

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Re: The Imus Nonsense
« Reply #54 on: April 15, 2007, 02:54:51 am »
From my year of tax education, I'm guessing that the complication is probably a result of ideological struggles accumulated over time. It will probably get worse, as Democrats may reverse some of the lax provisions enacted by Republicans. What happens is simple -- you get a general rule, then an exception; then an exception to the exception; then a contingency with its own exception, and then another vague rule that nullifies certain exceptions.

The end result is that you never know if your tax homework is right or wrong. It's hell.

But maybe a unified house and senate could clean up the tax code. The only issue is that speedy tax revisions means one ideology is going to win out over the other, and fast. Fast change might be a little disruptive.

So, to all future business owners here: yeah, hire an attorney and a CPA to help you get business started. Unless you've been to law school, you'll need their help in setting up a business and proofing it, especially if you're going to be a limited liability businessperson. When they ask for compensation, give them a 5% interest in the business.

I'm pretty serious. If the business takes off, you'll have a lawyer in good confidence profiting alongside you (with a lower share, of course). If it fails (and the majority do), at least you aren't out a few grand in fees.

Kyronea

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Re: The Imus Nonsense
« Reply #55 on: April 15, 2007, 03:13:14 am »
I'm still not sure if the Democrats will actually decide to alter the tax code. Apart from doing everything they can to end the Iraq War they seem to be refusing to honour any promises they actually made when it came to everything else Bush had done.

Still...at the moment, I am more willing to trust them than the Republicans on this issue. With luck, a unified house and senate may actually be able to refine the tax code. At the very least we can all request our various representatives and senators to do so, see if they decide to listen or not.

Leebot

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Re: The Imus Nonsense
« Reply #56 on: April 15, 2007, 04:57:13 pm »
I just have to take a step aside and point out that one of the things I love about this forum is how comment threads can quickly drift into subjects nowhere near related to the initial post, and the moderators encourage it. Too many other boards I've been too subscribe to the philosophy of "One thread, one subject." Some even extend it to each subject being limited to one thread. It gets really stifling after a while.

Lord J Esq

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Re: The Imus Nonsense
« Reply #57 on: April 15, 2007, 09:38:26 pm »
Certain sales taxes make economic sense and can even be socially justified. Sales tax on luxury and high-end items, for instance, can plug into the economic wellsprings of technological innovation and those wealthy enough to afford to ride the wave. Agriculture and foreign trade also can lead to some reasonable sales taxes.

But any sales tax is inherently regressive, and most of the time that leads to a socially unjust tax. Here is the very simple example: You have earned $10 this week, and your neighbor Peter Jackson has earned $1 billion. You both go to watch a movie at the local cinema. A movie ticket costs $7, plus a $2 sales tax. The movie is great--something about a jewelry heist--but when you come back home, you're left with just $1 in your pocket, while Peter Jackson has $999,999,991. (It's why he used to be so heavy.) To consume this product, you spent 90 percent of your income, while PJ has spent a few ten-millionths of a percent of his. The practical result is that it cost you a lot more of your relative income to watch the movie. Hence the word "regressive."

Well, so what? Who cares? Peter Jackson worked hard, made a fortune, and can afford to go to the movies now. You worked hard, didn't make a fortune, and so can't go to the movies. Tough for you.

Many economic conservatives will make that very argument, but they do so by implicitly rejecting the premise that all people are entitled to a certain minimum quality of life. It is one of the fundamental differences between economic liberalism and economic conservatism. We can argue with some leeway as to whether going to the cinema should qualify as a "quality of life" entitlement, but there are more than enough products in the human lifestyle for which there is no argument. These are products so important to any person's quality of life, that to charge a sales tax on them would hurt people, plain and simple. And the poorer they are, the more they would be hurt by those sales taxes.

Not surprisingly, the upper classes tend to prefer the concept of sales taxation. They have relatively much money, and therefore would pay a lower share of the tax burden, given a system based on sales taxes.

The two major alternatives are to tax income, and to tax trade. Today is Tax Day (actually Tuesday is Tax Day this year), and what that refers to is the federal income tax.

Income taxes are progressive--the opposite of regressive--because the more you earn, the more your pay in taxes. People who earn little are taxed little. People who earn much are taxed much, although, as noted, many of them can afford to pay lawyers to reduce their taxes illegitimately, using loopholes in the tax code.

(Trade-based taxes are a little too chewy to talk about in this context, and they can't generate as many revenues as the other two in any case, so I won't worry about them here.)

On the face of the issue, it would probably make sense to most people that income taxes are usually superior to sales taxes. So ends Economics 101, and then comes Economics 102, where the economic conservatives point out that taxing income deflates the economy because people who pay taxes on their income have less money to spend, whereas sales taxes help the economy because people have more money to spend (having not been taxed on their income). Then the liberals retort, but they're paying more when they buy things, so their overall wealth is not much enhanced. Then the conservatives break out pie charts, Steve Forbes lights a fart, somebody stages a boycott on Wal-Mart, and life goes on.

But at the end of the day, one thing remains: With a sales tax, poor people get hurt. With an income tax, nobody does. (Unless you count not being able to buy that second yacht as "hurt.")

That's why I support income taxes over sales taxes as a general rule.

Burning Zeppelin

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Re: The Imus Nonsense
« Reply #58 on: April 15, 2007, 10:15:55 pm »
Speaking of tax, I just had 56 dollars of the 120 dollars I made last week taken away!

Ramsus

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Re: The Imus Nonsense
« Reply #59 on: April 15, 2007, 10:33:33 pm »
Certain sales taxes make economic sense and can even be socially justified. Sales tax on luxury and high-end items, for instance, can plug into the economic wellsprings of technological innovation and those wealthy enough to afford to ride the wave. Agriculture and foreign trade also can lead to some reasonable sales taxes.

But any sales tax is inherently regressive, and most of the time that leads to a socially unjust tax. Here is the very simple example: You have earned $10 this week, and your neighbor Peter Jackson has earned $1 billion. You both go to watch a movie at the local cinema. A movie ticket costs $7, plus a $2 sales tax. The movie is great--something about a jewelry heist--but when you come back home, you're left with just $1 in your pocket, while Peter Jackson has $999,999,991. (It's why he used to be so heavy.) To consume this product, you spent 90 percent of your income, while PJ has spent a few ten-millionths of a percent of his. The practical result is that it cost you a lot more of your relative income to watch the movie. Hence the word "regressive."

Well, so what? Who cares? Peter Jackson worked hard, made a fortune, and can afford to go to the movies now. You worked hard, didn't make a fortune, and so can't go to the movies. Tough for you.

Many economic conservatives will make that very argument, but they do so by implicitly rejecting the premise that all people are entitled to a certain minimum quality of life. It is one of the fundamental differences between economic liberalism and economic conservatism. We can argue with some leeway as to whether going to the cinema should qualify as a "quality of life" entitlement, but there are more than enough products in the human lifestyle for which there is no argument. These are products so important to any person's quality of life, that to charge a sales tax on them would hurt people, plain and simple. And the poorer they are, the more they would be hurt by those sales taxes.

Not surprisingly, the upper classes tend to prefer the concept of sales taxation. They have relatively much money, and therefore would pay a lower share of the tax burden, given a system based on sales taxes.

The two major alternatives are to tax income, and to tax trade. Today is Tax Day (actually Tuesday is Tax Day this year), and what that refers to is the federal income tax.

Income taxes are progressive--the opposite of regressive--because the more you earn, the more your pay in taxes. People who earn little are taxed little. People who earn much are taxed much, although, as noted, many of them can afford to pay lawyers to reduce their taxes illegitimately, using loopholes in the tax code.

(Trade-based taxes are a little too chewy to talk about in this context, and they can't generate as many revenues as the other two in any case, so I won't worry about them here.)

On the face of the issue, it would probably make sense to most people that income taxes are usually superior to sales taxes. So ends Economics 101, and then comes Economics 102, where the economic conservatives point out that taxing income deflates the economy because people who pay taxes on their income have less money to spend, whereas sales taxes help the economy because people have more money to spend (having not been taxed on their income). Then the liberals retort, but they're paying more when they buy things, so their overall wealth is not much enhanced. Then the conservatives break out pie charts, Steve Forbes lights a fart, somebody stages a boycott on Wal-Mart, and life goes on.

But at the end of the day, one thing remains: With a sales tax, poor people get hurt. With an income tax, nobody does. (Unless you count not being able to buy that second yacht as "hurt.")

That's why I support income taxes over sales taxes as a general rule.

That's why I like considering creative solutions like the Fair Tax, instead of over-simplified textbook examples designed to teach basic economic theory. The Fair Tax actually addresses the minimum quality of life issue, and very simply and creatively for a sales tax -- in a way that would give the poor more spending power than they have now.