Author Topic: Small Government, Big Government: A Mature Conversation Herein Awaits  (Read 6156 times)

Kyronea

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Is this some kind of call for a state-controlled culture police to influence film, television, and music towards education?
...oh damn. I guess it could look like that, wouldn't it?

Hah. Not at all. More like help in the same sense as those anti-drug commericals and all that, in the sense of it being obvious that the government is sponsering the commercials, only with the media's help in making them more effective. So, same level of obviousness, but more effective. That sound better? Because the absolute LAST thing I would want is some kind of culture police...the very idea of a culture police force makes me sick.


The latter are the types of people I was referring to.  They're the ones with the most obviously inconsistent positions.
Then, in the future, just for the sake of good relations and avoiding misunderstandings, try to make something like this more obvious. Just because something is clear to the person saying it does not mean it is clear to everyone else...I know that from personal experience all too well time and again and again and again...

Quote

OK.  We've got the war in Iraq and the war on drugs that we know need to be slashed.  What else?
Well, a general slashing of the military budget as well...definitely some restructering of the military budget to make it more efficient(as well as aiding injured veterans more, among other things) and perhaps eliminate the subsidies we have towards oil companies. We probably only need around a few hundred billion or so...we've spent trillions on the Iraq war so that should be easily done.

Radical_Dreamer

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So, the sort of propoganda you're talking about is the government hiring film and tv industry people to make commercials promoting their views, and then paying for the advertising time to run them on the networks?

Kyronea

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So, the sort of propoganda you're talking about is the government hiring film and tv industry people to make commercials promoting their views, and then paying for the advertising time to run them on the networks?
Err...yes? They do that anyway for political advertisements for various candidates running for various offices, and they also do it for anti-drug commercials and what-have-you. All I'm suggesting is that they do the same thing to promote education. Why is that a bad thing, as seems to be implied by your statement? It's not as if I'm saying we should indontrinate kids with specific viewpoints or anything, just the value of education, which is a good thing to encourage, and what tends to be discouraged in most of the media today.

ZeaLitY

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I'm going to take the realist approach. As a kid, if I saw some learning commercial, I wouldn't give it a second thought in between cartoons. The rewards for education are partly there; getting a degree means adding several thousands of dollars to your paycheck in most cases, and being educated allows one to function on a higher level of society. I don't think change will be promoting the good, but rather eliminating the bad, or the current problems. Jaime Escalante proved that teachers are key. Within a few years, he turned a Los Angeles Hispanic ghetto high school into an absolute machine for producing graduates who knew Calculus (some, advanced). Promote teacher competence, salary, and respect; promote enrichment of places of learning; promote higher education and perhaps remove blocks to advancement. It would seem that there are hard things to be done immediately. Commercials or not, the real duty to instill a sense of and respect for education lies with fourteen years of teaching and plus.

Kyronea

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I'm going to take the realist approach. As a kid, if I saw some learning commercial, I wouldn't give it a second thought in between cartoons. The rewards for education are partly there; getting a degree means adding several thousands of dollars to your paycheck in most cases, and being educated allows one to function on a higher level of society. I don't think change will be promoting the good, but rather eliminating the bad, or the current problems. Jaime Escalante proved that teachers are key. Within a few years, he turned a Los Angeles Hispanic ghetto high school into an absolute machine for producing graduates who knew Calculus (some, advanced). Promote teacher competence, salary, and respect; promote enrichment of places of learning; promote higher education and perhaps remove blocks to advancement. It would seem that there are hard things to be done immediately. Commercials or not, the real duty to instill a sense of and respect for education lies with fourteen years of teaching and plus.
Absolutely. Obviously this all needs to be done as well. I'm simply talking about these commercials as an extra step, a way to make it even better--if it works, that is. That's part of why I keep harping on about using the media's experience in getting people of all ages to pay attention to and listen to what the commercial is saying. After all, they do it all the time for cereals. Think about how often a little kid watches some commercial about Trix or Rice Krispies or something and then keeps shouting at mom or dad to buy some. It's the same thing I'm trying to go for here to encourage it, to work with the way parents are behaving when it comes to raising their kids and how they allow their kids to entertain themselves. If they develop a strong interest in educating themselves from youth, then they'll pay even more attention to those wonderful teachers.

Which reminds me...when it comes to higher education, one aspect we need to shift on is foreign languages. Our foreign language departments across the country are stuck in the 50s, both when it comes to what languages to teach and what time to start teaching them. They need to be taught in elementary school when kids are still pliable and find it easier to learn languages. We also need to phase out languages like German in favour of Manderin Chinese, more Spanish, and perhaps Japanese. Keep the French though.

Burning Zeppelin

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Well, Brazil is an enormous subdeveloped country and still our public universities are free and work just fine.
Yeah, but Brazil is still subdeveloped :)

Kyronea

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Yeah, but Brazil is still subdeveloped :)
Yet consider the intellectual capital they have at their hands. After all, they're the only ones using cellulose-based ethonol, which is far more sensible than corn-based ethanol. Just think what Australia or the United States could do with similiar intellectual capital!

ZeaLitY

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Re: Small Government, Big Government: A Mature Conversation Herein Awaits
« Reply #67 on: June 01, 2007, 02:54:48 am »
Can someone produce a list of hot-button political issues? I want to go over each and every one and find out what I truly believe according to my ideals and ethical beliefs. I thought something like that existed on Wikipedia, but I can't find it. I'll keep searching.

Kyronea

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Re: Small Government, Big Government: A Mature Conversation Herein Awaits
« Reply #68 on: June 01, 2007, 03:08:47 am »
Can someone produce a list of hot-button political issues? I want to go over each and every one and find out what I truly believe according to my ideals and ethical beliefs. I thought something like that existed on Wikipedia, but I can't find it. I'll keep searching.
Well, admittedly it's based on American politics, but...

Gay marriage.
Death Penalty
Illegal Immigration
Abortion
Iraq War (and perhaps war in general)
Terrorism
Torture
Basic Sentient Being Rights(typically referred to as human rights, but I feel this is biased towards humanity, and that if we ever encounter another sentient species, another evolves on our planet, or we create one--A.I.'s and robots and what have you--they deserve the exact same rights.)
Separation of Church and State

Unfortunately that list is not only short, it is so terribly biased towards American politics that it is almost sickening. About the only thing that tends to be an issue in other places is illegal immigration and terrorism, though rarely even the latter.

Lord J Esq

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Re: Small Government, Big Government: A Mature Conversation Herein Awaits
« Reply #69 on: June 01, 2007, 03:43:11 am »
Best list I could find is on the contact page of our federal representatives and senators. Here's an example from one of my senators. Go down to the part of the page where it says "select topic of your message."

http://cantwell.senate.gov/contact/

Radical_Dreamer

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Re: Small Government, Big Government: A Mature Conversation Herein Awaits
« Reply #70 on: June 01, 2007, 04:46:54 pm »
So, the sort of propoganda you're talking about is the government hiring film and tv industry people to make commercials promoting their views, and then paying for the advertising time to run them on the networks?
Err...yes? They do that anyway for political advertisements for various candidates running for various offices, and they also do it for anti-drug commercials and what-have-you. All I'm suggesting is that they do the same thing to promote education. Why is that a bad thing, as seems to be implied by your statement? It's not as if I'm saying we should indontrinate kids with specific viewpoints or anything, just the value of education, which is a good thing to encourage, and what tends to be discouraged in most of the media today.

It's a bad thing for the reason Zeality stated: It wouldn't work. That's money that could be better spent on increasing teach salaries or some such. I am strongly for an educated populace, I simply disagree with this means of achieving that, because I do not believe it would be effective.

Kyronea

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Re: Small Government, Big Government: A Mature Conversation Herein Awaits
« Reply #71 on: June 01, 2007, 04:55:18 pm »


It's a bad thing for the reason Zeality stated: It wouldn't work. That's money that could be better spent on increasing teach salaries or some such. I am strongly for an educated populace, I simply disagree with this means of achieving that, because I do not believe it would be effective.
Alright then. Do you have a better method for encouraging education more? Besides the teachers in high school, I mean, because they have to wait till the child is at least fourteen or fifteen to influence them, and by then said child could have wasted many potential learning years. Since the whole point of the commercials was to target the young children, I must now question what better methods we have available to us for that kind of extra step, unless you want to try and place extremely qualified teachers in middle and elementary schools as well. I can see middle, but I am not so sure about elementary. (I am not saying I would not want to see such qualified teachers in elementary schools, as I would, but I just don't see it happening.)

Anyway, as I said, if the commercials are a bad idea--and they probably are--we need a better method. Problem is, I can't come up with one other than something like passing out a pamphlet to all new parents telling them to teach their kids about the value of education...

Mr. Molecule

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Re: Small Government, Big Government: A Mature Conversation Herein Awaits
« Reply #72 on: June 11, 2007, 04:44:40 pm »
The problem with propoganda is that it only works really well if it's reinforcing something the propagandee really wants to beleive. That's why advertising works so well--who doesn't want to beleive they can be cool or happy just by spending some money?

I think the only really viable response is "If you build it, they will come." Once we have a truly viable education system in place, the more the people who really want to take advantage of it, will. And for targeting young children, you build systems they can take advantage of. Of course, there's a lot of trust you have to place in parents, and there's really no way around that. For children who are sat down in front of a TV all day--you just have to hope the channel's turned to Sesame Street or the like--which, incidentally, are also learning systems.

What I'm saying is, we need to emphasize making good education a reality (including on TV), rather than artifically pumping some big, abstract idea. That's just not they way it works.