Author Topic: A Lavo-centric worldview of the Chrono universe  (Read 4622 times)

dearmey

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A Lavo-centric worldview of the Chrono universe
« on: June 10, 2004, 01:16:34 pm »
I have always thought that Lavos is both the most interesting and the most important aspect of the Chrono Trigger universe.  This is my attempt to come to a fairly complete understanding of this universe from this perspective.  I have almost completely ignored any relevant information that may be contained in Chrono Cross due to that fact that I never paid enough attention to be able to remember what that information might be.  I have however gone about as far as I can by myself and seem to be able to do no more without outside input.  This does feels both very incomplete and extremely unpolished.  I ask you too help me with this by pointing out where I am being completely stupid, ignoring the game, forgetting that logic exists and by asking question I can use to improve my understanding of this wonderful universe.  I appreciate any alternative opinions but I am more concerned with how well my conception matches with what the game provides.  I apologize for the way this sounds but this is how my thoughts collide with language, I have significant ability with concepts but converting them into words is a chore.  Opinions may be stated as facts because it is much easier, not because they are assumed to be so.  I apologize if this is either repetitive or scatter-brained, it was not all written in one sitting and all of the concepts are so interconnected that it is difficult to order them in a manner that prevents the possibility of confusion.  Also editing is boring and not nearly as much fun as the rest of this was.

   Primarily I ask that you point out where I am being moronic or completely missing something.  Also questions would be received with joy, explaining something is the best way to understand it.  I am sorry this is so long but it is primarily intended for my own benefit and it is not as though you are forced to read.  You are of course welcome to; I just want to say that it was not my intention to cause any emotional response at all in anyone who might read this.

Major Assumptions-
   Crono’s world is not the Lavos species’ first.  This is not at all supported or really important but it allows the belief that Lavos is at least somewhat experienced in his business.
   Lavos causes or affects the course evolution takes in the Chrono Trigger world.  This may be fairly well agreed upon but without this assumption, this is a waste of time and space.
   Lavos is intelligent, the possibility of direct assimilating the genetic growth of an entire planet without intelligence seems too insignificant to seriously consider.
   Lavos is the source or cause of magic, more on this later but it seems to make sense.
   More than the fifty or so people you can meet in the game exist in the Chrono world.  Such a low number is only due to the limitation of the medium through which the story is presented.
   Only those time periods that matter are visited by gates, or, only those time periods visited by the gates matter.
   Lavos experiences the same time as the rest of the world; this makes more sense to me than any alternative.
   The Queen of Zeal who was mother to Janus and Schala rose to power shortly before the destruction of Zeal and was driven insane around the same time by the death of her husband.  I do not know where this came from but I think it is accurate.

Synopsis-
   Brief summary of events as they affect Lavos and Zeal.  
   Lavos goes toward the center of the earth to use the energy available from there.
   Once in position, it controls the course of evolution the manipulation of the genetic material of the life form on the surface of the planet.
   Zeal is the peak of culture and has full control over both the magic and mechanical technologies and used both in its truly astounding endeavors.
   The Queen of Zeal is almost singularly responsible for the downfall of Zeal.
   Zeal is home of two radically different groups of people, the existence of the earthbound serves some purpose, probably Lavos’.
   Zeal is likely not the end result of 65 million years of uninterrupted progress.
   Lavos likely implanted the ability to use magic in human in order to both improve its own abilities and to see how it would react to what humans already had.
   Lavos emits some field that allows it to see and change the DNA of surface dwelling life form.
   The Mammon Machine used this field to power the civilization of Zeal and the possibility that all of this field would be harvested, removing Lavos’ ability to do its job, was the reason Zeal was removed.
   Lavos destroyed the Reptites intentionally.
   Lavos played with the genetic structure of humans and allowed them to fight with themselves for 65 million years, probably with periods of peace spread throughout, in order to see what worked and what id not.
   Such a long time of near constant warfare significantly changed both the normal mindset and abilities of humans to the point where war is an extremely natural situation.


What Happens-
   One of the most important aspects of the Lavos-Planet interaction is the manner in which it benefits Lavos.  When Lavos first impact the planet in prehistoric times it is easily seen that it is fairly small.  All that is visible is the fireball surrounding it as it falls.  Compared to the Lavos that erupts from the ground in 1999 ad (where it about the same size as the dome cities then present), this Fireball is extremely tiny.  Also, while the actual speed at which Lavos impacts is unknown, it is highly likely that this fireball is significantly larger than the actual creature is.  From this it is obvious that Lavos experiences a very significant growth over its period of residence in the planet.  While this may not be much greater growth from infancy to adulthood than is found in most terrestrial animals, the magnitude is truly staggering.  As such Lavos must consume a great deal more energy than would be expected of a more normal creature.  Lavos is observed to burrow deep within the planet immediately upon its arrival, most likely to place itself in a better position to harness the geothermal energy.

   Once in this energetically advantageous position Lavos then begins its primary purpose, that of gathering new DNA for assimilation.  The exact methodology by which Lavos acquires this new DNA is not explicitly stated in the game but from the conversation just before Lavos is killed by the valiant heroes it can be concluded that it played a major role in the course of evolution throughout its existence.

   The next time any information is available is nearly 65 million years after Lavos meets with the planet.  Without any knowledge of what may have happened in this time, it is almost necessary to ignore this interlude.  That is not to say that the passage of such an unimaginably long period of time is irrelevant, merely that nothing interesting happened.  It is at this time that the civilization of Zeal is at its pinnacle.  This was the zenith of human achievement, a seamless amalgamation of both magic and technology where the awesome expenditure of energy needed to suspend whole continents in mid air was taken for granted.  At this point in time Zeal is destroyed by Lavos.  This destruction may have been caused by the recently initiated and quickly growing drain on Lavos’ energy through the mammon machine or by the realization on Lavos’ part that Zeal was becoming a possible threat to its existence in some other manner.  Regardless, Zeal is brought low and magic is mostly removed from the world.

   After this incident, information is made available at a much quicker rate, 12600 years after the removal of Zeal from existence, a major war is fought between the humans led by the kingdom of Guardia and the non-humans led by the magic wielding Magus, once the child prince of Zeal, Janus. 400 years later the human victory is celebrated, by the humans at least, with a fair where almost half of the planet’s heroes begin their quest through time to defeat Lavos.  After 999 years Lavos rises to the surface of the planet and devastates the surface, which is populated predominately by humans living in domed cities.  301 years later the heroes are given the opportunity to see the havoc an uncheck Lavos wrecked.

Lavos-
   Lavos is a member of a species of parasites that land on a planet, burrow into the interior, and alter the course of evolution for millions of years in order to acquire new DNA which is then incorporated into the genetic makeup of both the original parasite and the offspring of that parasite.  The Lavos spawn found on death peak and in the Black Omen are obviously the spawn of Lavos and were presumably destined for the conquest of planets unknown.  The Lavos organism that originally landed in prehistoric times has obviously acquired genetic material from some place other than the planet on which it impacts, it did come from somewhere else and the middle form it takes in the final battle seems unrelated to either the external form or that assumed in the final stage.  

   The exact manner in which it controls evolution is neither obvious nor certain, but considering the fact that magic both exists and is somewhat caused by Lavos a starting place can be found.  In order for Lavos to have any direct impact on anything that happens on the surface on the planet, it is necessary that it be able to know what is happening and that it be able to change what is happening.  Knowledge is almost a given ability of the parasite, it can obviously determine the nature of DNA on the surface and it can presumably know whether this DNA is a good or bad idea for assimilation.  

   The question of power is more complicated.  One possibility is that Lavos is able to actively interfere in the day to day life of organisms on the surface of the planet.  Through this method Lavos would be able to use the entire population of the planet as breeding stock.  One aspect of this method that would benefit Lavos is that it would be able to find totally new material, assuming that life on whatever planet it landed is significantly different from that previously experienced by the Lavos life form.  However this does require that Lavos start completely from scratch with every new planet and does not allow it to fine tune what it already has for its own genetics.  Another possibility is that Lavos is able to directly change that DNA of those creatures it is watching.  This would not require that a great deal of power be expended, merely that what power is used is directed in a very precise manner.  This seems to be likely given that Lavos is able to determine what a creatures DNA is in the first place.  Also, the ability to change the genetic identity of whatever it wants to would allow it to prevent any life form it was unhappy with from reproducing, thereby allow the breeding option to be explored to some extent.  Considering that if the average time between generations, for humans anyway, is about thirty years, Lavos has some 2.17 million generations to play around with; it can afford to be a little inefficient.

Zeal-
   Zeal seems to have been a remarkably stable state until the queen came into power.  The elite have the use of magic and the earthbound non magic users have neither hope nor inclination to overthrow their oppressors; if that is what they truly are, it is somewhat possible that before the queen relations were friendlier, this however is unlikely due to the vast difference in ability present between the classes at this time.  Previous to the queens rearrangement of society the primary source of their magic was the planet and the sun, through the sun stone.  The queen’s changes occurred over a fairly short period of time, they are still being talking about how rapidly they happened.  

   Zeal was obvious accustomed to large engineering projects.  The whole continent floats above the clouds with no readily apparent means of support; this most likely indicates that there is a constant expenditure of energy just to provide for the enlightened ones their tropical getaway.  There is also the Mountain of Woe, the origin of which is indeterminate, that is far less well balanced than the main Zealian continent.  This lack of balance is evidenced by the chain that holds it down and could be due to a number of reasons.  It may have been constructed in a very short time just to hold Melchior, in which case it is a shining example of the sheer power available to the Zealian civilization.  It may be supported by what is effectively the same engine used for the other larger continent but is both smaller and lower than the engine is designed to support.  In this case it would be likely that the exile of the gurus removed the only people able to adjust or redesign what was already available.  The chain could also be designed as a way for the earthbound to access the mountain.  If this is true it is likely that the mountain is not new and was merely adapted as a prison for Melchior.  This is of course all completely unsupported speculation.

   Two of the other most obvious major engineering endeavors present in Zeal are the Blackbird, that truly marvelous example of aeronautical transportation, and the ocean palace / black omen constructed on the floor of the ocean and equipped with the fairly standard levitation module.  The Blackbird’s grace in the air is commented on at some point giving evidence to the fact that it was spectacular even for the fairly decedent Zeal.  Also it seems likely that the guns on the wings would have disrupted the airflow enough to render purely mechanical means insufficient to generate the lift necessary to keep anything that heavy in the air.  Also, considering how familiar the Zealian are with magic in its many forms it is likely that they used it as the main source of propulsion.  In addition, a society as advanced as Zeal would likely not appreciate the visible ugliness of non-magical propulsion.  The Ocean Palace is probably an undertaking on the same level as floating an entire continent, not only is it located at the bottom of the ocean; its entire purpose is the extraction of the maximum possible amount of energy from Lavos.  

   The corruption of the otherwise nearly ideal culture that is Zeal is most likely due to the raving insanity of the queen after the death of her husband.  It is around this time that Lavos is discovered as a possible source of power and the mammon machine is constructed to harness this power.  The admirers of the mammon machine are not the lifelong worshipers that would be more likely had the machine been around for a long time; rather they were attracted to the completely novel replacement for all previous energy sources.  The other draw of Lavos as a power source is the hope for immortality.  This is just about the only thing that a resident of Zeal has left to wish for; the rest of life is available on a silver platter.  The death of the king was enough to drive the queen to ignore the gurus and push the rest of her people to agree with her obsession with Lavos, power, and immortality which eventually led to Zeal’s destruction.

What Zeal means-
   The most important aspects of the Zealian culture are the prevalence of magic, the abundance of large scale projects, and the general atmosphere of highly advanced culture.  When Lavos landed magic was not possible for humans, even Spekkio was unable to teach Ayla how to use it.  Therefore it is easy to conclude that Lavos is a very likely cause for the appearance of magic in the world.  It is of course possible that over the 64988000 years between Lavos’ landing and the fall of Zeal the ability to use magic developed in humans, but two facts go some distance to invalidating this possibility.  First, even though such an unimaginably long period of time has passed, there still exists a group of people that lack the rather useful ability to manipulate the fabric of reality through magical means.  It would be more likely that, for one reason or another, the magic flinging Zealian would either annihilate or assimilate the much weaker earthbound people.  This suggests that there is some reason for the continued existence of the earthbound, the most likely of which is that Lavos has some interest in how humans would develop without magic.  This reason does however assume that Lavos is at least partially in control of human evolution which, while somewhat circular, is at least self-consistent.  The other observed fact is that the power drawn from Lavos through the mammon machine by the Zealians is so easily converted to whatever they are more accustomed to using that it has completely usurped all other power sources.  If Lavos was totally unconnected to the human usage of magic that would suggest that either magic is a universal property, similar to gravity, this in turn would make the existence of the earthbound highly unlikely.  

   The large scale projects present in Zeal as well as the generally high culture level go a long way to suggest that the civilization is quite well established.  It is at this point that the great gulf of time between landing and the end of Zeal becomes vitally important.  Due to the lack of any information from this time any conclusions are inherently suspect.  Even so, considering the normal course of human civilizations some tentative possibilities can be arrived at, the most general of which are that Zeal was either the product of uninterrupted improvement from Ayla’s time or the latest in a series of empires that rose and fell any number of times over the intervening years.  The first possibility is far more worrying than the second.  If Zeal is the end result of almost 65 million years of uninterrupted improvement then it is really rather disappointing.  It is fairly obvious that Zeal is the only significant power on the planet and after such a long time it is highly improbable that there would have been no attempt to expand, likely beyond the original planet.  The fact that the only expansion that seems to be happening is on the floor of the ocean suggests that some outside influence, most likely Lavos, has stunted the expansionist nature of humanity.  

   The possibility of multiple civilizations previous to Zeal offers a perfectly good explanation to the status of the Chrono world.  Most civilizations are ended through war or revolution; otherwise they tend to just limp along.  Considering that such a truly magnificent amount of time has passed before Zeal, even if the intervening civilizations were longer lived than seems normal, it is extremely likely that a large number of them had existed, and been removed.  This explanation can also serve to explain why the humans in 1000 ad are as militaristic as they are and when the last fighting of any note happened 400 years before their time.  This can also give some significant insight into the methods Lavos might use to improve itself.

Magic, the Mammon Machine, and the Death of Zeal-
   Magic was only possible for humans after the advent of Lavos.  By the time of Zeal it was fairly commonplace but still not evenly distributed.  The commonplace nature of magic is seen in the general acceptance of its existence and the natural nature of those action which where almost certainly done by magic.  It is possible that magic as a concept could be accepted in a short number of years, similar to how computers are both fairly new and extremely well accepted, but the floating of large land masses is something completely different.  This is an undertaking of exceptionally mammoth proportions, the mechanical energy required merely to lift that much mass any significant height is stupefying.  It is possible that after the initial lift some means of support is found that does not require the constant expenditure of energy, but no evidence is found to support this and the general attitude of the time seems to be that infinite energy is at their finger tips.  As such a large project, it would be expected to have been the result of long planning and not some spur of the moment action.  In addition, even in the earthbound portion of the planet’s population there is no sense that having large continent floating miles above the clouds is at all unusual.  This is not something that happened overnight.

   Previous to the queen’s rise to power, the primary source of the magical energies used by Zeal was the planet.  After the mammon machine was built however, the power it draws from Lavos is enough to more than replace all precious methods of powering the civilization.  This indicates that Lavos was the cause of a massive amount of energy flowing through the space occupied by or close to the mammon machine.  It could be possible for the machine to draw power from a distance, but the fact that they need to move it closer to Lavos suggests that they are merely taking advantage of a somewhat natural side effect of Lavos’ existence.  This in turn offers the possibility that Lavos radiates energy in the magical spectrum.  It is possible that Lavos is actively directing energy just at Zeal and fooling them into thinking that being closer will result in more energy for the taking, but this suggests that Lavos felt compelled to destroy Zeal even before they started to drain its power.  It is more likely that the queen’s insanity was both natural and the primary cause of Zeal’s downfall.

   Lavos must have some way to detect both what DNA is available for harvesting and whether or nor it is worth that harvesting.  DNA is an extremely dense method to store information.  As such if Lavos is able to read the DNA on the surface, it must be through some method that is not normally employed by any other known life form, magic.  Though there is no basis whatsoever given in the game for this conclusion, the most logical method available to a creature that generates enough magical energy to more than power an entire civilization floating above the clouds would be to exude a field of some sort.  This supposed field would be able to transmit information of knowledge about both the DNA and the activities of those creatures living on the surface of planet Lavos inhabits.  This field would require a massive amount of energy to sustain and monitor but that goes some way to explaining the destruction of Zeal.

   Under the assumption that Lavos does both emit and use this field effect, it is obvious that this is the source of the mammon machine’s power, it is absorbing the field’s energy.  This also explains why the machine is moved closer to Lavos in order to harness more power, any spherically emitted field decreases in strength with the square of the distance and Zeal in miles farther from Lavos than the floor of the ocean is.  In this case, Lavos could probably foresee a time when Zeal works to use all of Lavos’ field energy.  As this would remove Lavos’ ability to see and possibly change the DNA that is its only reason for visiting the planet, it is unlikely that it would appreciate this action.  

How Lavos Orders Its Domain-
   Lavos landed on the Plane with his two goals of genetic improvement and growth being the most important things in its universe.  When Lavos landed it was significantly smaller than it would be when it burst to the surface to raze the planet, in fact it is likely that it was about the size of the Lavos spawn encountered by Crono and his team.  Before it landed Lavos did not have much more than its high potential energy as an asset.  It seems suspiciously convenient that Lavos converted this potential energy directly into a crater where the major stronghold of the Reptites.  The Reptites were probably the only possible threat to the infant Lavos’ existence, they were much more advanced that the human they at war with as well as being much more likely to notice the adverse impact Lavos had on the planet.  While the humans of that time were much more advanced than is first apparent from their linguistic difficulties, the Reptites are a great deal farther along.  While the humans of the prehistoric times do not communicate with anything much more advanced than grunts their architecture is evidence of a comparatively high culture level.  Tents are not the starting point of civilization, caves are.  Tents involve some construction and are not merely a way to take advantage of fortuitous natural occurrences.  The Reptites, however, have inhabited both a somewhat hollowed out mountain and a truly magnificent castle, indicative of significant cooperation and sophisticated mental processes.  The other threat the Reptites pose is in their awareness of the planet, Azala demonstrates this in the ability to predict that Lavos’ impact would result in significant climatic changes.  

   Once Lavos landed it would probably be much more vulnerable than it would like to be.  That would explain both the destruction of the Reptites and the rapid burrowing toward the planet’s center.  At this point in time, the primary goal is to grow to a more acceptable size and develop some control over the genetic testing area that is the surface of the planet.  When Lavos achieves this control it has only a few broad goals, discovery of new genetic concepts, assimilation of those concept, and improvement of any concepts available for improvement.  All three of these are equally important but it is the first that allows Lavos to radically adapt to any situation it might encounter.  If Lavos was only able to deal with its own DNA, it would have an extremely difficult time coming up with anything genuinely new.  If however Lavos is able to combine its own DNA as well as whatever DNA it may have picked up over the course of its travels with that found on the planet of its choice, it has the opportunity to both discover new possibilities and to refine any findings so that they can be flawlessly incorporated in its own genome.  

   At this point is seems reasonable to consider what general strategy Lavos employs in its genetic experimentation.  It is fairly likely that the main thrust of its overall plan is to acquire and perfect those genetic possibilities that are most beneficial to its existence.  The only problem that this could pose is that if Lavos pursues this to the extent that everything else is ignored it would miss any chance to gain something totally new and unexpected.  It seems that this is the reason zeal existed in the form it did.  The enlightened magic users were Lavos' testing ground for the effects of genetic differences in the use of magic while the earthbound served both as control group and protected the possibility for random chance to produce something spectacular from the more ordinary human material.  

   As to the general methodology Lavos employs, it is likely that it took advantage of the fact the humanity seems to posses the ability to war with itself indefinitely.  The one thing that war is good for is limited, but rapid, improvements of current capabilities.  War also would give Lavos the chance to compare one genetic setup with another, assuming that the sides are determined at least slightly by race, in a number of different situations.  In such a situation, Lavos would presumably be able to determine when the outcome of a given conflict was due merely to chance and when it was due to more predictable variables.  Considering Lavos’ final solution to life on the surface it would easily see destruction in general as something that can be an extremely effective means to an end.   Another advantage from Lavos’ perspective is that in war it is usually the more fit that fight, and consequently die.  This would let it assume that there was no danger of any significant genetic improvement would slip out of its control.  This does, of course, assume that the ability to use magic is left dormant and not activated through some time traveling fluke.  This would explain why the residents of the present are still celebrating a 400 year old victory when they never mention any conflict in the intervening time.  It would also explain why Guardia has such a prevalence of knights and arms dealers when it seems that Guardia is the only significant power on the globe.  One other possible benefit is that this could explain why the heroes who defeat Lavos are able to improve so rapidly in such a short time, without resort to assuming to be merely to make the game playable.  After 65 million years of intermittent war, it would be almost impossible to not have a general increase in the ability to wage war throughout the populous.

ZeaLitY

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Re: A Lavo-centric worldview of the Chrono universe
« Reply #1 on: June 10, 2004, 03:43:37 pm »
I'll give it a quick check of logic/conclusory evidence/established beliefs/theories.

Quote from: dearmey
Major Assumptions-
   Crono’s world is not the Lavos species’ first.  This is not at all supported or really important but it allows the belief that Lavos is at least somewhat experienced in his business.
   Lavos causes or affects the course evolution takes in the Chrono Trigger world.  This may be fairly well agreed upon but without this assumption, this is a waste of time and space.
   Lavos is intelligent, the possibility of direct assimilating the genetic growth of an entire planet without intelligence seems too insignificant to seriously consider.


The above are more or less correct. Lavos affecting evolution is revealed in Chrono Cross.

Quote from: dearmey
Lavos is the source or cause of magic, more on this later but it seems to make sense.


I'll get to it then.

   
Quote from: dearmey
More than the fifty or so people you can meet in the game exist in the Chrono world.  Such a low number is only due to the limitation of the medium through which the story is presented.
   Only those time periods that matter are visited by gates, or, only those time periods visited by the gates matter.


Correct, though it is believed that the Entity specifically linked to these key times. Lavos lands in one and awakens in the following two, the one who shall save the planet lives in the next, and Lavos erupts and rules in the last two.

   
Quote from: dearmey
Lavos experiences the same time as the rest of the world; this makes more sense to me than any alternative.
   The Queen of Zeal who was mother to Janus and Schala rose to power shortly before the destruction of Zeal and was driven insane around the same time by the death of her husband.  I do not know where this came from but I think it is accurate.


The latter is correct, though the first falls under the Pocket Dimension Theory. Notice that Lavos is the same beast in every time period; this leads one to believe that his own personal time runs somewhat perpindicular and independent of the real timeline, and means that once he is defeated in one era, he is instantly removed from every era. The only way one could stop Crono would be traveling back in time within Lavos's own Pocket Dimension, which might have even been destroyed. More on this: http://chronocompendium.com/Forums/viewtopic.php?t=35 (See GrayLensman's post)

Quote from: dearmey
Synopsis-
   Brief summary of events as they affect Lavos and Zeal.  
   Lavos goes toward the center of the earth to use the energy available from there.
   Once in position, it controls the course of evolution the manipulation of the genetic material of the life form on the surface of the planet.


Through the Frozen Flame, though this is revealed in Chrono Cross. In 3,000,000 B.C., the human species makes contact with the Frozen Flame, significantly increasing the evolution and growth of the human brain.

   
Quote from: dearmey
Zeal is the peak of culture and has full control over both the magic and mechanical technologies and used both in its truly astounding endeavors.
   The Queen of Zeal is almost singularly responsible for the downfall of Zeal.
   Zeal is home of two radically different groups of people, the existence of the earthbound serves some purpose, probably Lavos’.


The Earthbound are cheap labor for the construction of the Ocean Palace.

   
Quote from: dearmey
Zeal is likely not the end result of 65 million years of uninterrupted progress.
   Lavos likely implanted the ability to use magic in human in order to both improve its own abilities and to see how it would react to what humans already had.


Bingo. The last point is right on the money concerning magic.

   
Quote from: dearmey
Lavos emits some field that allows it to see and change the DNA of surface dwelling life form.


See Frozen Flame comments above; that is how it controls evolution. As for gathering DNA, as you state below, we don't really know how he did that.

   
Quote from: dearmey
The Mammon Machine used this field to power the civilization of Zeal and the possibility that all of this field would be harvested, removing Lavos’ ability to do its job, was the reason Zeal was removed.


Mammon Machine was simply a power source due to Dreamstone's being an excellent conductor of his energy. Though this is a nuisance to Lavos, it has no real effect but awakening him.

   
Quote from: dearmey
Lavos destroyed the Reptites intentionally.
   Lavos played with the genetic structure of humans and allowed them to fight with themselves for 65 million years, probably with periods of peace spread throughout, in order to see what worked and what id not.
   Such a long time of near constant warfare significantly changed both the normal mindset and abilities of humans to the point where war is an extremely natural situation.


Don't know about these, though it may be interesting to assume Lavos picked out the most civilized structure on the planet to smash into in order to ensure an uninterrupted infiltration of the planet. Lavos does control his descent. However, I believe the humans simply took to the caves due to the oncoming Ice Age. Lavos couldn't really play a role in their affairs, and humans were probably too concerned about survival.


Quote from: dearmey

   The next time any information is available is nearly 65 million years after Lavos meets with the planet.  Without any knowledge of what may have happened in this time, it is almost necessary to ignore this interlude.  That is not to say that the passage of such an unimaginably long period of time is irrelevant, merely that nothing interesting happened.  It is at this time that the civilization of Zeal is at its pinnacle.  This was the zenith of human achievement, a seamless amalgamation of both magic and technology where the awesome expenditure of energy needed to suspend whole continents in mid air was taken for granted.  At this point in time Zeal is destroyed by Lavos.  This destruction may have been caused by the recently initiated and quickly growing drain on Lavos’ energy through the mammon machine or by the realization on Lavos’ part that Zeal was becoming a possible threat to its existence in some other manner.  Regardless, Zeal is brought low and magic is mostly removed from the world.


Just a sidenote -- the raising of the Mammon Machine to its full power extraction was probably the straw that broke the camel's back.

   
Quote from: dearmey
The question of power is more complicated.  One possibility is that Lavos is able to actively interfere in the day to day life of organisms on the surface of the planet.  Through this method Lavos would be able to use the entire population of the planet as breeding stock.  One aspect of this method that would benefit Lavos is that it would be able to find totally new material, assuming that life on whatever planet it landed is significantly different from that previously experienced by the Lavos life form.  However this does require that Lavos start completely from scratch with every new planet and does not allow it to fine tune what it already has for its own genetics.  Another possibility is that Lavos is able to directly change that DNA of those creatures it is watching.  This would not require that a great deal of power be expended, merely that what power is used is directed in a very precise manner.  This seems to be likely given that Lavos is able to determine what a creatures DNA is in the first place.  Also, the ability to change the genetic identity of whatever it wants to would allow it to prevent any life form it was unhappy with from reproducing, thereby allow the breeding option to be explored to some extent.  Considering that if the average time between generations, for humans anyway, is about thirty years, Lavos has some 2.17 million generations to play around with; it can afford to be a little inefficient.


Same remarks about the Frozen Flame. Also, one theory states that Zeal was destroyed precisely because its magic had exceeded all that Lavos required of it for genetic enhancement, and it might have become a threat to Lavos if allowed to continue advancing.

   
Quote from: dearmey
Zeal seems to have been a remarkably stable state until the queen came into power.  The elite have the use of magic and the earthbound non magic users have neither hope nor inclination to overthrow their oppressors; if that is what they truly are, it is somewhat possible that before the queen relations were friendlier, this however is unlikely due to the vast difference in ability present between the classes at this time.  Previous to the queens rearrangement of society the primary source of their magic was the planet and the sun, through the sun stone.  The queen’s changes occurred over a fairly short period of time, they are still being talking about how rapidly they happened.


I'm not sure about this idea that the Queen created the Earthbound society.

   
Quote from: dearmey
Magic stuff


Check out the Magic thread here sometime. Magic is simply the biological ability to manipulate the four basic elements that compose all reality -- lightning, fire, water, and shadow. Lavos is not a source of magic, just a provider of energy for it. Ayla cannot use magic simply because her species had not been evolved by the Frozen Flame to where it is possible. Likewise, the many of the people of Zeal did not possess this 'innate' magic genetic trait either, as they lost their ability. However, it seems that all modern humans have capacity for magic, though the trait becomes recessive after the fall of Zeal. It can nonetheless be awakened in the heroes of time, while born innates, such as Magus and the royal family, have it naturally.

   
Quote from: dearmey
The large scale projects present in Zeal as well as the generally high culture level go a long way to suggest that the civilization is quite well established.  It is at this point that the great gulf of time between landing and the end of Zeal becomes vitally important.  Due to the lack of any information from this time any conclusions are inherently suspect.  Even so, considering the normal course of human civilizations some tentative possibilities can be arrived at, the most general of which are that Zeal was either the product of uninterrupted improvement from Ayla’s time or the latest in a series of empires that rose and fell any number of times over the intervening years.  The first possibility is far more worrying than the second.  If Zeal is the end result of almost 65 million years of uninterrupted improvement then it is really rather disappointing.  It is fairly obvious that Zeal is the only significant power on the planet and after such a long time it is highly improbable that there would have been no attempt to expand, likely beyond the original planet.  The fact that the only expansion that seems to be happening is on the floor of the ocean suggests that some outside influence, most likely Lavos, has stunted the expansionist nature of humanity.


It seems this Frozen Fact is playing heavily on this work. I suppose it could be 3,000,000 years of uninterrupted development, rather.

   
Quote from: dearmey
The possibility of multiple civilizations previous to Zeal offers a perfectly good explanation to the status of the Chrono world.  Most civilizations are ended through war or revolution; otherwise they tend to just limp along.  Considering that such a truly magnificent amount of time has passed before Zeal, even if the intervening civilizations were longer lived than seems normal, it is extremely likely that a large number of them had existed, and been removed.  This explanation can also serve to explain why the humans in 1000 ad are as militaristic as they are and when the last fighting of any note happened 400 years before their time.  This can also give some significant insight into the methods Lavos might use to improve itself.


While this is a good argument, one must still take into the account the extremely tough conditions the humans post-Lavos faced; surviving an Ice Age might have taken precedence over scuffles. Additionally, the modern warring can be attributed to human nature rather than tradition.

Quote from: dearmey
Previous to the queen’s rise to power, the primary source of the magical energies used by Zeal was the planet.  After the mammon machine was built however, the power it draws from Lavos is enough to more than replace all precious methods of powering the civilization.  This indicates that Lavos was the cause of a massive amount of energy flowing through the space occupied by or close to the mammon machine.  It could be possible for the machine to draw power from a distance, but the fact that they need to move it closer to Lavos suggests that they are merely taking advantage of a somewhat natural side effect of Lavos’ existence.  This in turn offers the possibility that Lavos radiates energy in the magical spectrum.  It is possible that Lavos is actively directing energy just at Zeal and fooling them into thinking that being closer will result in more energy for the taking, but this suggests that Lavos felt compelled to destroy Zeal even before they started to drain its power.  It is more likely that the queen’s insanity was both natural and the primary cause of Zeal’s downfall.


As stated before, most of this can be attributed to Dreamstone, which naturally conducts the energies of Lavos.

   
Quote from: dearmey
Lavos must have some way to detect both what DNA is available for harvesting and whether or nor it is worth that harvesting.  DNA is an extremely dense method to store information.  As such if Lavos is able to read the DNA on the surface, it must be through some method that is not normally employed by any other known life form, magic.  Though there is no basis whatsoever given in the game for this conclusion, the most logical method available to a creature that generates enough magical energy to more than power an entire civilization floating above the clouds would be to exude a field of some sort.  This supposed field would be able to transmit information of knowledge about both the DNA and the activities of those creatures living on the surface of planet Lavos inhabits.  This field would require a massive amount of energy to sustain and monitor but that goes some way to explaining the destruction of Zeal.

   Under the assumption that Lavos does both emit and use this field effect, it is obvious that this is the source of the mammon machine’s power, it is absorbing the field’s energy.  This also explains why the machine is moved closer to Lavos in order to harness more power, any spherically emitted field decreases in strength with the square of the distance and Zeal in miles farther from Lavos than the floor of the ocean is.  In this case, Lavos could probably foresee a time when Zeal works to use all of Lavos’ field energy.  As this would remove Lavos’ ability to see and possibly change the DNA that is its only reason for visiting the planet, it is unlikely that it would appreciate this action.  


Dreamstone again, though this is a good theory to account for the way Lavos acquires genetic information.

And, that's about all my commentary. Have at it, everyone! Any further inquiries should be presented. Also, reading 'Condensed Plot Summary of Chrono Cross' under articles might be a good brushup on its plot and influence.

Faulce

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« Reply #2 on: June 10, 2004, 04:02:30 pm »
Quote
Crono’s world is not the Lavos species’ first. This is not at all supported or really important but it allows the belief that Lavos is at least somewhat experienced in his business.


I assume you mean that Lavos's species is at least somewhat experienced.  Due to his size appearing to be similar to the Lavos Spawn, I am certain that this is Lavos's "first time"  heh.  I wonder, do the "Lavos" species leave a planet once they are done feeding from it?  I mean besides the offspring of course.

doulifee

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« Reply #3 on: June 10, 2004, 04:59:39 pm »
it's possible the mother body died after passing the DNA code to the offspring (lot of insect die after that)

i was wondering if  on of the purpose of harvest better DNA, the creation of the "hero" has been made on purpose to gather high quality DNA.

that work if you think that lavos can interfere with individual (like zeal) and not only a species.

if magic is a genetic factor available in the raw material, it's logic it came from Lavos, and force the Magic gene to became dominant and not recessive.  probably after the fall of zeal, the gene became recessive again, if Lavos, has stop to enhance it, due to the danger of zeal.

for the pocket dim, lavos need some time to built it after landing (due to the laps of time between the landing, and it first appearence)

chronotriggerfreak

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« Reply #4 on: June 10, 2004, 05:06:15 pm »
Quote from: doulifee
i was wondering if  on of the purpose of harvest better DNA, the creation of the "hero" has been made on purpose to gather high quality DNA.

that work if you think that lavos can interfere with individual (like zeal) and not only a species.


That's assuming what makes Crono such a "hero" is a genetic factor. I think that's doubtful, although it's not too far-fetched to suggest that it comes from something more than merely his mother's rearing. And of course Lavos can work on an individual, but he usually does it to those in power so as to corrupt or make sweeping changes in many people through doing so.

Quote from: doulifee
if magic is a genetic factor available in the raw material, it's logic it came from Lavos, and force the Magic gene to became dominant and not recessive.  probably after the fall of zeal, the gene became recessive again, if Lavos, has stop to enhance it, due to the danger of zeal.


As Zeality mentioned, magic was brought to humans after introduction to the Frozen Flame; their brains were developed, and powerful magic both from the planet and from Lavos became accessible to them.

Quote from: doulifee
for the pocket dim, lavos need some time to built it after landing (due to the laps of time between the landing, and it first appearence)


I don't see why this isn't possible, but I don't think it's likely or has any definitive proof to support it, either. Just because Lavos didn't appear until 12,000 B.C. doesn't mean he'd been hiding underground developing a Pocket Dimension the whole time. Personally, I don't think it would take so many millions of years--it seems to me that Lavos just had no reason to appear before then, because humans weren't advanced enough to fall into his trap of seductive power and promise.

Symmetry

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« Reply #5 on: June 10, 2004, 06:37:11 pm »
dearmey -

You seem to place a lot of blame on the Queen for the destruction of Zeal.

While she does appear to have gone farther than anyone else in her pursuit of immortality, you can't forget that Schala still aided her in the operation of the Mammon Machine. In fact, I can't remember anyone, save the gurus, who opposed the Queen's pursuit of Lavos' power.

My knowledge of the game is a little rusty, but was it ever stated that Lavos had been entirely ignored until the Queen started going insane? I forget precisely when the Mammon Machine was constructed. Also consider that while she is the Queen, it is unlikely that she was the one conducting all of this research that made the Undersea Palace, Mammon Machine, and manipulation of Lavos possible. My point is, Zeal as a whole spelled its own doom through its hubris - the Queen was just the catalyst.

Which brings me to another thought. We see the Black Omen - Queen Zeal's success after the Ocean Palace disaster. Now, Lavos was able to destroy the contient of Zeal, but why didn't he destroy the Black Omen? As was stated earlier, one reason for the Kingdom of Zeal's demise might be that Lavos feared that if they were allowed to grow any further, they might become a threat to him. If this is true, why let the Queen continue her reign afterward? Perhaps Lavos knows that immortality is her only goal, after which she would desire nothing more?

Perhaps it was a "gift" of sorts?

Or maybe Zeal had already become too powerful and Lavos was unable to destroy the Omen? Interestingly enough, its still hovering there unharmed in 2400AD...

chronotriggerfreak

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« Reply #6 on: June 10, 2004, 06:40:21 pm »
Who mentioned the Queen?

Anyway, I believe we have a reason that the Black Omen is standing--at it has to do with Lavos favoring, or at least pretending to favor, Queen Zeal, if I remember correctly--but I don't remember it at the moment. Zeality may have some direct answers to back this up.

Symmetry

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« Reply #7 on: June 10, 2004, 06:44:54 pm »
Quote from: chronotriggerfreak
Who mentioned the Queen?

Anyway, I believe we have a reason that the Black Omen is standing--at it has to do with Lavos favoring, or at least pretending to favor, Queen Zeal, if I remember correctly--but I don't remember it at the moment. Zeality may have some direct answers to back this up.


The original poster of the thread. Sorry, I was not clear in my post.

ZeaLitY

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« Reply #8 on: June 10, 2004, 06:53:37 pm »
In the Lavos Timeline, Schala probably eliminated or transported her mother and herself out of the Ocean Palace. In the Keystone Timelines, Queen Zeal remained and could presumable raise the Black Omen. That's the theory.

Symmetry

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« Reply #9 on: June 10, 2004, 06:55:18 pm »
Hmm.. I'm talking about the Black Omen once it was raised in the Keystone Timeline.

Radical_Dreamer

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« Reply #10 on: June 10, 2004, 07:04:33 pm »
The Black Omen probably used less Lavos energy than the empire of Zeal when the Mammon Machine was in the Palace. It was allowed to exist because it was not a threat to Lavos, and it (presumably) would have taken a great deal of energy to errupt and destroy it, something Lavos doesn't seem to like doing often.

ZeaLitY

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« Reply #11 on: June 10, 2004, 07:08:48 pm »
There also might be an issue with canon. Hyena20 claims that in her translations, it is specifically stated that the Queen went crazy from the loss of King Zeal, while the English version states outright --

"After the Mammon Machine was completed, the Queen changed overnight."

Radical_Dreamer

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« Reply #12 on: June 10, 2004, 07:14:53 pm »
*bangs head against wall*

Someone bring me Ted Woosely. I want to hear this one cleared up personally.

All joking aside, there's a problem if the different versions conflict with each other? Which one is the real version, if that concept is even applicable? Chrono Cross doesn't really clarify the actual canon position on these issues (except the hair dye, cause that was pivotal)

I don't suppose Kato reads these boards and would care to clarify? No? Well, it was worth a shot...

dearmey

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« Reply #13 on: June 10, 2004, 07:53:37 pm »
As for the Black Omen, it uses a negligent amount of energy compared to what Zeal had been drawing before its destruction, the Black Omen is somewhat less mass than the entire Zealian continent.  Also since it floats above anything Lavos is concerned with and changes not at all over the many years; the residents have zero ambition beyond continued existence, there really is no reason for its destruction.  Or so I assume.

As far as the Queen is concered, I am probably being so unfair to her due to my personal dislike of her, Zeal was quite due for a radical rearangement.  However it is how she capitalizes on the one desire the Zealians could possibly have unfulfilled that make her worthy of vilification as far as I am concerned.  Even worse than this breach of common morality is the stupidity demostrated by the entire effort to harness Lavos’s energy.  They knew nothing beyond the potential power they could concievably draw.  I have no problem with an attempt to use the excess energy producted by a giant parasite that will, at some far distant future, detroy all life on the planet, but the Zealians do not even find out what is producing the energy.  Didn’t they have the wonder of fiction to explore such unlikely situations befor they actually occur?

Faulce

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« Reply #14 on: June 10, 2004, 07:55:14 pm »
I would think that the Japanese version is correct and that the English version has the translation error.  Both describe the Queens lust for power (immortality specifically) but seriously, why would only the Queen go insane after the Mammon Machine is built, despite her emotional trauma over her husbands death? Everyone in Zeal is spoiled and power hungry (except Schala, shes nice :)   ).  One would think that everyone working on the Mammon Machine would also be enticed by Lavos's immense power.