DBoruta's Ocean Palace Flame Theory

[Chrono'99]

Discussions about this theory was scattered around a few threads centered on other stuff so I guess I'll start a new one with a summary.

http://www.chronocompendium.com/wiki/index.php?title=Ocean_Palace_Incident_%28Flame_Theory%29

This theory holds that Lavos effected the moving of the Mammon Machine through Queen Zeal in order to reunite with the Frozen Flame.

If we take into consideration that the Mammon Machine may have been operating by using the Frozen Flame, we essentially have the Frozen Flame opening a pocket dimension, dragging the Mammon Machine, or a projection of it, into the dimension with it. A link is established with Lavos, and Lavos comes onto the scene. Afterwards, the Black Omen forms, and the physical Mammon Machine is destroyed. What about the projection and the Frozen Flame? It very well could have been that the Frozen Flame resided inside of this projection of the Mammon Machine in the pocket dimension.

Now, let's just assume for the moment that what I'm proposing is true. This has some implications, namely, the real reason for the Ocean Palace disaster, and just how the Frozen Flame is recovered in the future.

The Ocean Palace disaster now makes a little more sense if I think about it like this: Zeal was using the Frozen Flame to extract energy from Lavos. While Lavos may be getting drained of energy, it probably isn't the reason why Lavos controlled Queen Zeal and the Enlightened Ones. If you notice, it was Queen Zeal, who was under Lavos' control, who decided to move the Mammon Machine closer to Lavos. During the Ocean Palace disaster, Lavos makes its move to be reunited with the Frozen Flame. When Crono & co. arrived, they unknowingly thwarted the attempt. In both timelines, original and new, Lavos destroys Zeal. The reasoning here is most likely still the same - to prevent Zeal from developing further and becoming a real threat to Lavos. The reason the Black Omen appears in the new timeline is because Lavos' attempt to reunite with the Frozen Flame failed. So, instead the Black Omen is a place that houses the Frozen Flame. This makes sense and can explain the Omen's ability to transcend time.

This theory is really interesting, but it's a bit complicated to understand in details.

If Lavos reunited with the Mammon Machine's Frozen Flame in the original timeline, why does he try to reunite again in the modified timeline? He already has a version of the Flame, another version would just get time-bastardized. Plus the attempt is so dangerous that it's not worth the effort (and the attempt did indeed fail in the modified timeline).

Speaking of Time Bastard, if the Frozen Flame entered a pocket dimension in the first timeline, shouldn't it disappear in the second timeline instead of entering another, different (?) pocket dimension?

Also how was Lavos reunited with the Flame? Lavos dies in CT but the Flame doesn't follow him in the Darkness of Time, so it wasn't really united right?

Hell, can someone just re-explain the theory with different words? The premise seems very interesting and pertinent (Time Crash = Ocean Palace incident vol#2) but the exact implications are difficult to grasp.

[AuraTwilight]

Naturally this theory only works if you believe the Frozen Flame was in the Mammon Machine, which I don't.

[Chrono'99]

Yeah, I think everybody realized that by now.

Other comments?

[ZeaLitY]

I think the most interesting tenet of this theory is the way it jives with the idea that "the awakening Lavos" pulled Chronopolis back to 12000 B.C. One can think he pulled the Flame back again. But the real information would come from that overarching plot line that didn't make it into Chrono Cross, sadly.

[DBoruta]

Wow I wish I checked this site more often than I do...


Ok, yeah, this is really complicated - I think moreso than I realized when I wrote it.  I'll try to answer your questions but I don't know if I can answer them all fully.

If Lavos reunited with the Mammon Machine's Frozen Flame in the original timeline, why does he try to reunite again in the modified timeline? He already has a version of the Flame, another version would just get time-bastardized. Plus the attempt is so dangerous that it's not worth the effort (and the attempt did indeed fail in the modified timeline).

Speaking of Time Bastard, if the Frozen Flame entered a pocket dimension in the first timeline, shouldn't it disappear in the second timeline instead of entering another, different (?) pocket dimension?

I hope I'm understanding this - so you're asking why did Lavos try to reunite with the Frozen Flame again in the modified timeline of Chrono Trigger, right?  If you are, this would be my reasoning behind it - think back to Time Error, where Crono & Co. are moving along a 5D "axis of time" where 4D time as we know it is held constant like points on a coordinate plane.  So, what we're seeing in the events of Chrono Trigger isn't really Lavos attempting to reunite with the Flame again, but Lavos' first attempt to reunite with the Flame.  I could be wrong here, but I think that's the best way to think about it.  I'm not sure exactly how Time Bastard will come into play here - the timeline where Lavos is reunited with the Frozen Flame could have just been sent to the DBT time instead, but I don't know what really happened there.

As far as Time Bastard in relation to the Frozen Flame's pocket dimension goes, I'm not sure it can be applied that way.  Again, I'm thinking back along the lines of a Time Error approach from Crono & Co.'s perspective, where in the normal timeline the Frozen Flame would have become one with Lavos again.  This would mean that in the normal timeline the pocket dimension created by the Frozen Flame would have dissipated or would have been absorbed into Lavos' pocket dimension.  In the modified timeline, this doesn't happen, so the Frozen Flame stays in its pocket dimension. 

Also how was Lavos reunited with the Flame? Lavos dies in CT but the Flame doesn't follow him in the Darkness of Time, so it wasn't really united right?

Right.  In CT, Lavos wasn't reunited with the Frozen Flame after Crono & Co. intervened (assuming the Frozen Flame actually was where I hypothesized it was).  In the original timeline, Lavos was never sent to the DBT, and the Black Omen never rose from the ocean.  These two things point to a conclusion that Lavos was united with the Frozen Flame after the Ocean Palace disaster in 12,000 B.C. in the original timeline, but not in the modified timeline. 

Hope this helps - it's been a long time since I originally thought about this stuff so it's going to be difficult for me to reword the whole theory.