Author Topic: Who is King Zeal?  (Read 12079 times)

Lord J Esq

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Re: Who is King Zeal?
« Reply #60 on: November 23, 2006, 06:32:56 am »
I agree with Aura on this one...the Kingdom of Zeal seems more like the culmination of many generations of hard work.

ZeaLitY

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Re: Who is King Zeal?
« Reply #61 on: November 23, 2006, 01:58:15 pm »
Me too. The instant-Zeal theory has never held much water, because there are a slew of historical events that back up the opposite.

  • Humans have had magic for three million years.
  • It is implied that Zeal used the Sun Stone long enough to drain a fair share of its energy.
  • But it takes aeons, so it's unlikely for us to see that gorgeous glow again.
  • A Sun Palace already existed to house the Sun Stone. It was merely sealed up with the elemental weapons when Lavos was located.
  • Those lacking magic have always lived beneath the clouds, as the «Earthbound Ones.»
  • How did we come by our skills? And why do others lack them? Who cares!
  • The Queen must have borne pain and sorrow in silence. Zeal, too, was born out of much sacrifice and work. (Zeal / Queen are separated in the sentence)
[
  • The Mammon Machine was made right after King Zeal died by the already-existent Gurus.
/list]

And then there is the sheer logical improbability of Queen Zeal alone raising entire islands into the sky and keeping them afloat all of her own power given that Crono and the others can beat her with magic. Oh, but it's the Mammon Machine, you say! Well, don't forget that the Sun Palace predated the Mammon Machine, so it was already afloat. The huge advances that Zeal woman is talking about are obvious -- everyone in Zeal was looking forward to eternal life. Dalton is a good example of that. And the Mammon Machine was a step forward in magical power. But Zeal is ancient.[/list]
« Last Edit: November 23, 2006, 02:01:54 pm by ZeaLitY »

Chrono'99

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Re: Who is King Zeal?
« Reply #62 on: November 23, 2006, 02:01:49 pm »
I don't really think so. The whole Earthbound thing seems recent. I mean, Schala and Janus used to love their mother. But Schala, as also one of her reasons, doesn't like her now because Zeal does not treat the Earthbound ones as humans.

Schala and Janus ceased to love their mother because she went obsessed with Lavos and a futile quest for immortality, not because of the Earthbound/Enlightened Ones separation. This separation is a social matter that doesn't depend on Queen Zeal alone, but on the whole society. Sure, Schala would like everybody to get along in an equalitarian and perfect world, but it's a complicated matter. Even if the Queen would want to reform the society, the citizen would certainly not agree with her.

A person like Zeal, I would not expect any lesser of her than to create Zeal in a matter of years. When you have such powerful people backing her up like the Guru's, anything can be accomplished.

Are you serious? Two cities, three palaces, the first airplane of history, a whole bunch of continent raised to the sky, and something like a few thousands of written books, in only a few years? There is nothing in the game that implies such a thing. Kingdoms aren't built in one day.

Also, you can't really base the Sun stone on much. It may take a hell of a long time to charge, but that doesn't mean it can power something for thousands of years. I mean, it only hard enough energy in it to cerate the Wonder shot, and the rest of the stone was used in the Sun specs.

Totally false. They only used a small bit of the stone to create the Wondershot and the Sun Specs. The Sun Stone in itself still existed and was fine. Taban even strikes a hammer on it in the ending to produce some fireworks, and Lucca seems totally fine with this.

Also, since they knew about elements and had elemental weapons, I wouldn't think past them that they had very simple abilities with elements, but nether the less, once Zeal established magic or found a way to tap into it and teach others, then the split between Enlightened and Earthbound occured.

Don't confuse everything. The elemental powers of Zeal refer to the four elements composing the universe and described by Spekkio, i.e. it refers to magic. Magis is totally different from the Element system invented by the Dragonians. Zeal had 4 elemental armors, not 6 or 7.

And while I'm on it, here's two quotes you might find interesting:

Quote
[Doreen]
   This is the eternal kingdom of Zeal,
   where dreams can come true.
Quote
[Woman]
   Long ago, the Enlightened Ones and the
   Earthbound Ones lived as one.

Zaperking

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Re: Who is King Zeal?
« Reply #63 on: November 23, 2006, 04:29:16 pm »
Yeah, I kinda blundered on the Sun Stone. I think I miss interpreteded a quote. Sorry. Anyway

Quote
Schala and Janus ceased to love their mother because she went obsessed with Lavos and a futile quest for immortality, not because of the Earthbound/Enlightened Ones separation. This separation is a social matter that doesn't depend on Queen Zeal alone, but on the whole society. Sure, Schala would like everybody to get along in an equalitarian and perfect world, but it's a complicated matter. Even if the Queen would want to reform the society, the citizen would certainly not agree with her.
Yes, I realize that too. But still, you don't start disliking someone over one thing. I mean, would Schala be totally loving her mother back when King Zeal was alive? That whilst the King and Queen were together, they could not change anything when they were the most powerful in the entire kingdom? Unless Zeal and King Zeal were totally sadistic and mean before the King's death, you'd surely thing that they wouldn't have been so mean to Earthbound ones.
Quote
[Woman]
   Long ago, the Enlightened Ones and the
   Earthbound Ones lived as one.
Long ago isn't really long ago. Since the woman establishes that one side already had magic, and one did not, and they lived together, that truely cannot be that long ago. If anything, probably less than a hundred years. Heck, we don't even know if the Zeal family are the first rulers or not. Maybe their family has passed it down like Guardia. Who knows.
Quote
Are you serious? Two cities, three palaces, the first airplane of history, a whole bunch of continent raised to the sky, and something like a few thousands of written books, in only a few years? There is nothing in the game that implies such a thing. Kingdoms aren't built in one day.
Hmm? It's CT. Anything can happen in it. We have people being ressurected, girls who can fix robots who are 1000 years from the future. We have girls who live connected to a monster for thousands of years. We have a time-space research centre that established an island in like 1000 years or less, but prior to 0AD. Anything can happen.

Quote
    * The Mammon Machine was made right after King Zeal died by the already-existent Gurus
How is that relevant? We know the Mammon Machine was made after King Zeal's death. And the Guru's had been the family advisers for years.
Quote
Those lacking magic have always lived beneath the clouds, as the «Earthbound Ones.»
And this is a contradiction to what another woman said. This is just a social pride thing.
Quote
A Sun Palace already existed to house the Sun Stone. It was merely sealed up with the elemental weapons when Lavos was located.
So there was a search for a long time.
Quote
Humans have had magic for three million years.
They seemed to have contact with the flame 3,000,000 years ago. But that does not mean that they have had magic for that long. We just know that their brain tripled in size in the spam of 3,000,000 years. But the very ability to control magic was unlocked. What matters is how they learn to actually harness that power. We don't know how long it took. But if Zeal was truely built out of sacrafice and hard work, then obviously Magic wasn't the initial answer to the kingdom being created if people couldn't control it properly.

Anyway, I think I worded my past argument.

I don't think that Zeal was created in a day. I'm trying to say is that the Kingdom probably existed for a long time, but the fact that it's so magically advanced and all, and people don't care about living anymore and just want to sleep, it seems like Zeal put the kingdom into their golden age. I mean, the Guru's could have written all of their books whilst they were on the Earth. The Sunstone could have kept them going and all. It's uncertain if Zeal is just the flying archepelago because Queen Zeal controls the whole universe from the standpoint of the enlightened ones.
And i'm not saying the Queen herself raised the island. I'm saying that if it was done after the king's death, and because the quotes are misleading, she would have used the help of the Guru's, the Mammon Machine and everything to get them afloat.

But yeah, don't get me wrong. I like playing on both sides. This time, I just want to see how far this argument can work. It's not my fault that some quotes are contradictory, not encisive enough and others are vague. The whole mystery around Zeal is open to interpretation.






AuraTwilight

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Re: Who is King Zeal?
« Reply #64 on: November 24, 2006, 02:48:40 pm »
Quote
Yes, I realize that too. But still, you don't start disliking someone over one thing. I mean, would Schala be totally loving her mother back when King Zeal was alive? That whilst the King and Queen were together, they could not change anything when they were the most powerful in the entire kingdom? Unless Zeal and King Zeal were totally sadistic and mean before the King's death, you'd surely thing that they wouldn't have been so mean to Earthbound ones.

There's a big difference between disliking someone over one thing, and disliking someone after they've changed so much they're hardly the same person.

Quote
Long ago isn't really long ago. Since the woman establishes that one side already had magic, and one did not, and they lived together, that truely cannot be that long ago. If anything, probably less than a hundred years. Heck, we don't even know if the Zeal family are the first rulers or not. Maybe their family has passed it down like Guardia. Who knows.

Just because some people in a society have magic and others don't doesn't mean they weren't living together. Anyway, your statement makes no sense. Are you implying that since the woman can recall how people lived, it must've not been long ago? Well bravo, then, I'm sure the fall of Rome is recent history! Next up in Glamour Girl Magazine: The Scandal of the Year, Cleopatra's affair with Caesar!

Quote
Hmm? It's CT. Anything can happen in it. We have people being ressurected, girls who can fix robots who are 1000 years from the future. We have girls who live connected to a monster for thousands of years. We have a time-space research centre that established an island in like 1000 years or less, but prior to 0AD. Anything can happen.

Yes, but all of that actually makes sense in the context of the series. People are being ressurected because there's magic for it. Girls can fix robots because they're geniuses, etc. But no matter what, you can't just poof a kingdom into thin air in a few years. Rome wasn't built in a day.

Quote
I don't think that Zeal was created in a day.

Then why did you spew out all that other crap? You're totally contradicting yourself.

Zaperking

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Re: Who is King Zeal?
« Reply #65 on: November 24, 2006, 03:53:01 pm »

Quote
I don't think that Zeal was created in a day.

Then why did you spew out all that other crap? You're totally contradicting yourself.

If you read my whole previous post, you'd understand. Quote picking isn't cool.

Anyway, like I said, it's CT, anything can happen.  We already know the extent of Zeal's domination. She's a powerful woman who gets what she wants. God, how long must it have taken the Black Omen to have been built. Probably not very long. Once someone like her had her mind in sets for power, nothing could stop her. And then, ultimately that was her downfall. Wish she actually lived kind of longer T.T

AuraTwilight

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Re: Who is King Zeal?
« Reply #66 on: November 25, 2006, 01:50:16 pm »
Quote
If you read my whole previous post, you'd understand. Quote picking isn't cool.

I did. And you contradict yourself all over. No wonder no one ever understands you.

Quote
Anyway, like I said, it's CT, anything can happen.  We already know the extent of Zeal's domination. She's a powerful woman who gets what she wants. God, how long must it have taken the Black Omen to have been built. Probably not very long. Once someone like her had her mind in sets for power, nothing could stop her. And then, ultimately that was her downfall. Wish she actually lived kind of longer T.T

Not ANYTHING. CT does have logic. For example, Ayla and Robo can't use magic, you can't beat Lavos with a broom. (Wait, nevermind that one.) You can't change the past by changing the future...etc.

Zaperking

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Re: Who is King Zeal?
« Reply #67 on: November 25, 2006, 03:53:42 pm »
You can't change the past by changing the future...etc.
........ Saved Time line = Chronopolis ---> Time Crash. Nuff said.

Chrono'99

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Re: Who is King Zeal?
« Reply #68 on: November 25, 2006, 05:56:36 pm »
Oh, right. This definitely proves that Zeal was built in one day :roll:

Zaperking

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Re: Who is King Zeal?
« Reply #69 on: November 25, 2006, 07:18:41 pm »
Oh, right. This definitely proves that Zeal was built in one day :roll:

The last 2 posts weren't even totally relevant to this.

And anyway, so offtopic again.

So let me rephrase my belief.
King Zeal = Irrelevant. Some bozo who died for the good, that inspired or awakened Zeal's ambition to do whatever she did that glorified Zeal.

Salvadeiro

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Re: Who is King Zeal?
« Reply #70 on: November 26, 2006, 01:16:08 am »
Janus's real father.  Not Schala's father.  King Zeal was absorbed into magic somehow.

nightmare975

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Re: Who is King Zeal?
« Reply #71 on: November 26, 2006, 01:25:29 am »
Janus's real father.  Not Schala's father.  King Zeal was absorbed into magic somehow.

They have the same father. The step sibling was a Wooslyism

AuraTwilight

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Re: Who is King Zeal?
« Reply #72 on: November 26, 2006, 02:09:16 pm »
Quote
........ Saved Time line = Chronopolis ---> Time Crash. Nuff said.

That was Chronopolis going into the past and changing history :P

Zaperking

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Re: Who is King Zeal?
« Reply #73 on: November 26, 2006, 03:36:35 pm »
Quote
........ Saved Time line = Chronopolis ---> Time Crash. Nuff said.

That was Chronopolis going into the past and changing history :P

You said that you can't change the past by changing the future :P But by having the future changed, in this case, the past was changed too.

Azure

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Re: Who is King Zeal?
« Reply #74 on: November 27, 2006, 12:04:47 pm »
Janus's real father.  Not Schala's father.  King Zeal was absorbed into magic somehow.

They have the same father. The step sibling was a Wooslyism

Who's Wooslyism?  :?