Poll

So, we're nearly all males here. Of a woman 5' 8" tall, who is otherwise ideally beautiful, what is her most attractive weight to you? (Females may answer for themselves.)

< 90 pounds
0 (0%)
100 pounds
2 (11.1%)
120 pounds
6 (33.3%)
140 pounds
7 (38.9%)
160 pounds
1 (5.6%)
180 pounds
1 (5.6%)
200 pounds
1 (5.6%)
220 pounds
0 (0%)
> 250 pounds
0 (0%)

Total Members Voted: 16

Author Topic: The FAT Topic: What do you think about this weighty issue?  (Read 14173 times)

Nicole_Flesher

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Re: The FAT Topic: What do you think about this weighty issue?
« Reply #105 on: July 31, 2006, 10:42:18 pm »
In the movies there are not that much of BIG modols or star actrises. Why do they only put skinny people in the movies make them look good then when they start ganing weight they always say you need to loss weight or you are going to be booted off. Does every body have to look skinny to be populer, look good, or even be in the spotlight. That's stupid and that makes some people crazy. They end up being annarexic and all that good stuff just to look that good. I mean i'm big and I love who I am if guys or any poupler group don't want because of my size I say ''F'' you. Were people were the same we can act, or even sing, dance, pose, kiss, all that good stuff and still be the same as skinny people. But that's just what I think. What you people think  that's up to you.

Radical_Dreamer

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Re: The FAT Topic: What do you think about this weighty issue?
« Reply #106 on: August 01, 2006, 12:41:14 am »
I do have to wonder why you hope women will close the height gap? Is this because of your realization that difference is the root of prejudice, and a hope that with the reduction of difference, the prejudice will likewise be reduced? Personally, I'd rather let natural selection decide the degree of sexual dimorphism in our species, as opposed to philosophical ideals.

Whether you approve or not, the days of natural selection as the primary engine of evolution in our species are over. Cultural selection took over a long time ago, and, in the coming decades and centuries, selection will become a conscious choice. Is that such a bad thing? Why would you rather let the random forces of nature dictate our existence as opposed to our own ideas of form and function? Accepting, for the moment, that we were to factor out all the problems that could result from the exclusive availability of such power—problems that have solutions and are therefore transient rather than fundamental—why indeed is it such a bad idea for humanity to take its fate into its own hands?

I’d like women to close the height gap on men because I don’t want gender roles to exist anymore. You more or less got it right on that count.

Cultural selection helps. Natural selection is relative to environment. We have been shifting the environment, both deliberately and as a side effect. True, culture is an environment, but it is still subordinate to the ecological environment. If our soceity wanted to implement a bizzare eugenics program designed to get people breathing gaseous mercury, we could, in theory, work toward that goal. Of course, with the air we breath still being largely nitrogen, CO2, and oxygen, we'd all die at the end of the program, but hey, we'll have shapped our evolution, and that has to count for something, right?

Breeding up tall women, or any such eugenical type program is a foolish endeavor. We cannot predict the full future of the earth. We might breed out traits that while socially undesirable now, may prove neccissariy for survival later. "Oh, wouldn't it be nice if..." is not a good way to determine how to breed humans for physical traits. If anything, women being taller would be detrimental to the species, as they would also be heavier, and thus require greater resources to sustain. We can guide our own destiny by shapping our environment, or individuals going in to change their genes, but until we have a perfect  understanding of genetics and a little thing called the future of the planet, widespread eugenics programs are a foolhardy endeavor.

And even if women were as tall as men, they'd still be women. No mysoginist thinks proudly to himself, "Boy, it's a good thing women are shorter than men, or my intrinsic superiority as a male would be lost!" The height gap is not the root of the problem, and eliminating it will not eliminate sexism.

So your goal is a society where fat people are fat because they chose to be fat? If that is the case, then there is less reason to not have a prejudice, as then fatness becomes a consequence of ones actions, which in any law-possesing soceity, is a just basis of judgement. It seems to me that the key difference between my society and yours is that in yours, the path to obesity is something the social order seeks to obstruct. Thus, yours is the society with the inbuilt prejudice against fat people.

You are leaving out one key ingredient in your scenario: My hope in this case is for a society where people are educated to make, not simply judgments, but judgments of a higher wisdom. Gene Roddenberry put it well when fielding a question from an interviewer. He was asked, on the subject of Captain Jean-Luc Picard, why the man is bald—for surely they have a cure for baldness in the 24th century, yes? And Gene’s answer was, “In the 24th century, they won’t care.”

Suppose we’re talking about baldness—another trait that attracts harassment and discrimination. Suppose science comes up with a foolproof, flawless, and utterly convenient cure for it. Now suppose some people prefer to go on being bald. Yes, perhaps they will therefore attract all the more discrimination for it…but as society liberalizes, and old prejudices fade away, we would hope that it would eventually become acceptable to be bald.

The same thing goes for being fat. If we raise our children and saturate our popular culture with the message that being fat is not an ugly or horrible thing, the prejudice will subside. And, thus, even though medical science will have brought us closer in that era to a society where fatness is a matter of choice, fewer people will be inclined to develop a prejudice against it in the first place!

I was trying to make this point to Ramsus: Just because a trait can or cannot be changed voluntarily, does not by itself justify a prejudice against it. You contend that we should be held accountable for that which is under our control. Fine; I agree. But I disagree with the specious reasoning that we should be held accountable for something solely because it is under our control. I see no reason for fatness to be held to account at all—at least not in the form of a cultural prejudice—whether the condition is voluntary or not.

In that regard, you and I want the same society. One that considers not just immediate, but long term consequences of actions, and strives for both knowledge and wisdom...both of us could live happily in this society! Where we disagree is in terms of social duty. In your responses to Ramsus, you state that people have the right to be fat, and that while they will (or will be more likely to) have health problems as a result, society must shoulder this burden.

There is plenty of room to discuss the political ramifications of alternative lifestyles. Let’s start at the beginning. We live in a free country. Therefore, if people want to “enjoy their monstrously oversized meals” or “lack of physical activity,” then we as a society must be willing to accommodate them to the fullest extent possible before we step in with regulations and laws that discriminate against them.

...


This is because society exists to provide basic rights and protections to everybody. And a fat person’s right to good medical care outweighs your right to save a cent or two in taxation.

Whoa, whoa, whoa. This here is the sort of thing we disagree with. We both say let those that wish to be fat be fat. We both say let them seek out medical care when they are ill. Where we diverge, however, is at the point of who pays for it. You have not demonstrated why society has a duty to protect people from their own educated choices. A fat person's right to good medical care is unrelated to my right to the fruits of my labor. Clearly, you are a fan of socialized healthcare, but surely you can't believe that it is the burden of society to care for self inflicted injuries? If I shoot myself in the leg, why should you pay for my healthcare? Nothing out of my control happened, the social order did not break down, thus society does not owe my healthcare to me. Or take smoking for an example. Smoking is a freely chosen habit that is horribbly destructive to the human body. Since a smoker choses to smoke, and to take on those health risks, why should anyone else pay for their healthcare? I realize that the analogy is not perfect, given that no one is born with a cigarette in hand, but hopefully it illustrates my point. If we agree that fatness is a choice (which I don't think it is in all cases, but in many), society does not have the duty, nor should it, to protect educated adults from their concious decisions.

What you are stating in the above quote is that we have an affirmative duty to give up the fruits of our labors to facilitate the lifestyle choices of others. I guess this is more of a political divide between you and I. I believe the state exists to protect people from each other. You expand that to have the state protect people from themselves. You are assuming that this is the case, without providing why it should be. Is not the greater good served by people taking responsibility for their own actions, and society being ready to help in events beyond the control of the individual, rather than society taking responsibility for the actions of the individual?

Daniel Krispin

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Re: The FAT Topic: What do you think about this weighty issue?
« Reply #107 on: August 01, 2006, 12:51:53 am »
Could you honestly sit there, in front of your computer with nobody there to judge you but yourself alone, and tell us you would go to that gym, eat that much healthier, and improve yourself just like that?

It is rare, but I wouldn't rule it tooooooootally out.

Yeah, very rare. I can tell you I don't have that kind of self-will and motivation. And it's not like I would have too long a way to go to get in shape. Sometimes, I think I might be too sedentary by nature. Definitely not a hundredth so driven a sort as that Naruto guy, from the way I hear you tell it.

Burning Zeppelin

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Re: The FAT Topic: What do you think about this weighty issue?
« Reply #108 on: August 01, 2006, 04:56:12 am »
I find it sad, however, how fat people who didn't choose to be fat, as they had a disease of some sort, are still mistreated like their consensually (hey, if it works with sex...) fat bretheren. They didn't choose to be fat, so I guess you could call that prejudice.

Also, "prejudice" against fat people usually only applies to women. Most fat guys are ususally feared, or funny, or just normally treated. Of course, some majorly obese people aren't. Also, insults towards fat people are usually used in a non-serious way. I guess you want a world without offensive jokes Josh...might as well take out porno with it.

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Re: The FAT Topic: What do you think about this weighty issue?
« Reply #109 on: August 01, 2006, 07:44:19 am »
Also, insults towards fat people are usually used in a non-serious way. I guess you want a world without offensive jokes Josh...might as well take out porno with it.

No, not porn!
....Most jokes tend to be rooted in offending someone in some way anyways, so you'd have to get rid of a lot of the world's humor.


And even if women were as tall as men, they'd still be women. No mysoginist thinks proudly to himself, "Boy, it's a good thing women are shorter than men, or my intrinsic superiority as a male would be lost!" The height gap is not the root of the problem, and eliminating it will not eliminate sexism.


I'm not entirely too sure, but it seems his idea is more along the lines of, if women were more the size of men, they could stand up for themselves better on par with a man, and in the end have more respect from men.
I agree though, that most misogynists that are really truly hateful and look down on women aren't going to change their minds that women are inferior simply because a woman might be more capable of keeping up with them physically or say, kicking their ass. They're still going to believe that women are baby machines whose role is in the home.

Burning Zeppelin

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Re: The FAT Topic: What do you think about this weighty issue?
« Reply #110 on: August 01, 2006, 07:51:49 am »
Many a woman has kicked my ass, you sexist :P

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Re: The FAT Topic: What do you think about this weighty issue?
« Reply #111 on: August 01, 2006, 02:27:01 pm »
Many a woman has kicked my ass, you sexist :P

Ah, well, I try, you wuss. =P

*note: not one to talk on the wuss part... a fly could kick my ass, sadly enough*

ChibiBob

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Re: The FAT Topic: What do you think about this weighty issue?
« Reply #112 on: August 01, 2006, 05:01:45 pm »
It is rare, but I wouldn't rule it tooooooootally out.



Hey, don't play the Rock Lee card. That's totally unfair. The only thing I'd be able to counter that with is



And I wouldn't rule it out either, but whoever can muster up the motivation on their own deserves a medal or something.

Hadriel

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Re: The FAT Topic: What do you think about this weighty issue?
« Reply #113 on: August 02, 2006, 09:41:53 am »
Nobody's really said anything about the ethics of artificially altering your physique through either drugs or more farfetched approaches.  I'm starting to lose weight from my diet + exercise program, but it isn't coming off fast enough for me.  There's a good-sized chunk of my psyche that says that I want this weight gone right fucking now, even if I have to cut myself the fuck open and rip the fat out with my bare hands.  Of course, I'm nowhere near stupid enough to believe in Magical Conservation of Energy-Foiling Diet Pills that let you eat anything you want and lose weight, and as a corollary I'm also not stupid enough to shoot up juice.

My main problem is that going to the gym is an absolute fucking chore.  It's utterly boring and trite, way past the point where I can't be arsed to do it.  It doesn't have racquetball courts or anything cool like that.  Bah, maybe the school gym does.  Sports work differently; once I get to playing a sport, it's hard as hell to stop.  Add some music and good company and I could play just about any sport for hours on end.  Basketball used to be a favorite of mine.  Swimming is good, too, but they don't have any honest-to-god pools.  But soccer...damn, I used to kick ass at that.  I just need to find somewhere where I can play soccer every day and I'll be a happy Sith Lord.

Nicole_Flesher

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Re: The FAT Topic: What do you think about this weighty issue?
« Reply #114 on: August 02, 2006, 11:25:35 am »
 :?....WOULDN'T BE BETTER IF YOU JUST GET A TREADMILL AND WALK ON IT ANT HOME? OR A BOWFLEX?

nightmare975

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Re: The FAT Topic: What do you think about this weighty issue?
« Reply #115 on: August 02, 2006, 01:16:17 pm »
:?....WOULDN'T BE BETTER IF YOU JUST GET A TREADMILL AND WALK ON IT AT HOME? OR A BOWFLEX?

Those cost a lot of money, money that they aren't willing to shell out for their health.

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Re: The FAT Topic: What do you think about this weighty issue?
« Reply #116 on: August 02, 2006, 02:47:32 pm »

Those cost a lot of money, money that they aren't willing to shell out for their health.

I assumed she was saying that in response to the gym thing, and to my knowledge, some gyms charge membership fees. If going is such a problem then, and if you're already willing to shell out money for the benefit of health, why not buy some kind of machine to use at home?

Or at least, that's kind of the impression I got on her response. *shrugs*

Nicole_Flesher

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Re: The FAT Topic: What do you think about this weighty issue?
« Reply #117 on: August 02, 2006, 10:43:21 pm »

Those cost a lot of money, money that they aren't willing to shell out for their health.

I assumed she was saying that in response to the gym thing, and to my knowledge, some gyms charge membership fees. If going is such a problem then, and if you're already willing to shell out money for the benefit of health, why not buy some kind of machine to use at home?

Or at least, that's kind of the impression I got on her response. *shrugs*
I don't like people to watch me work out I do it funny, and it works good at home. Because the gas is so high. Don't have to drive to the gym. And the best about it is you can watch TV while working out.... :D

Radical_Dreamer

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Re: The FAT Topic: What do you think about this weighty issue?
« Reply #118 on: August 03, 2006, 12:38:44 am »

Those cost a lot of money, money that they aren't willing to shell out for their health.

I assumed she was saying that in response to the gym thing, and to my knowledge, some gyms charge membership fees. If going is such a problem then, and if you're already willing to shell out money for the benefit of health, why not buy some kind of machine to use at home?

Or at least, that's kind of the impression I got on her response. *shrugs*
I don't like people to watch me work out I do it funny, and it works good at home. Because the gas is so high. Don't have to drive to the gym. And the best about it is you can watch TV while working out.... :D

Of course, if all you do is walk, a treadmill and a gym membership are both superfluous, as there is outside for walks. I only use the treadmill in my apartment complex when the weather forces it.

Burning Zeppelin

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Re: The FAT Topic: What do you think about this weighty issue?
« Reply #119 on: August 03, 2006, 04:33:33 am »
Hadriel is right; screw gym style excercise. It is a lot better in losing weight, and there is less chance of injury, but sport can help you lose weight AND it is fun.