Author Topic: United States of America: Nation of Evil?  (Read 5410 times)

Romana

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Re: United States of America: Nation of Evil?
« Reply #45 on: July 20, 2006, 05:29:42 am »
Japan should stay neutral! Otherwise, it could become a big target! The people there are peaceful, y'see.
if they dont they could just put sublinamil messages in all the games the make they'd have a army of millions.

Subliminal messages are illegal now, though. But would that stop them? I think not.

Nicole_Flesher

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Re: United States of America: Nation of Evil?
« Reply #46 on: July 21, 2006, 05:10:11 pm »
sorry my lord. I did not say they do drugs. But we all also do a lot of things were not sappose to.
True, true. But that's what we're here for, right? To mess up and learn from it?
I won't even bother adding my two cents to the conversation. What juvenile responses...

Oh, yeah, I'm sure EVERYONE who goes to church ends up being a child petaphile/pot head. My GOD, look at a bigger scale. DO NOT generalize society to fit your vague, corrupt philosophy.

People kill for many reasons. Belief conflicts, vengeance, justice, etc. As a person and a martial artist, I personally would kill if I felt necessary By the same token, however, I would be willing to put my life in harm's way for the same reasons. You see, the world isn't going to change. We won't have this "utopian" society some of you keep yapping about. Therefore, instead of conforming to the hate, we must resist it, but in different ways.

CTFan

I take it those two cents were burning a hole in your pocket...

=P
Just a bit :lol:!

CTFan
You are right I didn't even think about it. We do wrong we learn right. And when we learn the hard way we never forget. But we will all regret it someday.

Salvadeiro

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Re: United States of America: Nation of Evil?
« Reply #47 on: July 24, 2006, 08:19:03 pm »
I'm upset because America is basically allowing Israel to bomb the poor Lebanese covering it up saying that they are trying to bomb Hezbollah. I'm upset because I'm Lebanese. 

Lord J Esq

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Re: United States of America: Nation of Evil?
« Reply #48 on: July 24, 2006, 10:22:02 pm »
If Israel wanted to bomb the Lebanese people, there wouldn't be many Lebanese people left.

That's the thing that makes it so hard to be neutral about this stuff. Tactically, the Israeli Defense Forces go out of their way to minimize civilian casualties, whereas Islamic militants strive for as much death as they are able to inflict, regardless of the targets. And yet the rhetoric is the other way around: Israel is accused of being a warmonger, and the militants are called freedom fighters. Strategically I would agree with you that Israel's counterattack was way out of proportion to the original hostage-taking, but with all the Islamic bullshit Israel has to put up with, as well as the tacit scorn of most of the rest of the world, I honestly can't say I blame them. I would probably make the same decision myself. This lovely planet of ours would be a lot better off without Islamic crusaders. Without religion of any stripe, to be perfectly honest...but the militant radicals are the worst kind.

Rat

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Re: United States of America: Nation of Evil?
« Reply #49 on: July 24, 2006, 11:19:39 pm »
Gah, ok, but my point mainly was not the government that controls the country, but rather the people who populate it.

I think maybe your point got a bit derailed by your examples of violence, which were mainly decided/orchestrated/carried out by the government for the most part. Perhaps better examples of violence for the discussion you were going for would include things that the people themselves did without a government okay. Such as lynch mobs, a variety of hate crimes against black people or gay people, the Oklahoma City bombing, or even the recent event in which US soldiers over in the Middle East went and raped a woman and killed her family. (but then a counter point to the last would be that they were killed in revenge, and it's difficult to use that as an example because the people they were dealing with were apparently just as willing to be as violent as they were, and were from another country).

Also, when talking about a nation as a whole, it is easier to refer to the government and its actions and how these represent the country overall.  (And politicians, regardless of their party, are power hungry to some extent, or they wouldn't be running for the positions they do - I'm sure there are a few here or there who genuinely want to do what they believe is good, and to be fair/just leaders, but for the most part, and especially those that run for position as president? power hungry. but... err... that might be digressing a bit.)

Besides, I don't think it's really just people from the United States as a whole who are violent - humans in general have always had a violent history. For example - the Rape of Nanking. 
In fact, the few Americans present at Nanking at the time (mostly missionaries) set up a Saftey Zone which is believed to have saved many lives. 

Burning Zeppelin

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Re: United States of America: Nation of Evil?
« Reply #50 on: July 25, 2006, 03:56:36 am »
Gah, ok, but my point mainly was not the government that controls the country, but rather the people who populate it.

I think maybe your point got a bit derailed by your examples of violence, which were mainly decided/orchestrated/carried out by the government for the most part. Perhaps better examples of violence for the discussion you were going for would include things that the people themselves did without a government okay. Such as lynch mobs, a variety of hate crimes against black people or gay people, the Oklahoma City bombing, or even the recent event in which US soldiers over in the Middle East went and raped a woman and killed her family. (but then a counter point to the last would be that they were killed in revenge, and it's difficult to use that as an example because the people they were dealing with were apparently just as willing to be as violent as they were, and were from another country).

Also, when talking about a nation as a whole, it is easier to refer to the government and its actions and how these represent the country overall.  (And politicians, regardless of their party, are power hungry to some extent, or they wouldn't be running for the positions they do - I'm sure there are a few here or there who genuinely want to do what they believe is good, and to be fair/just leaders, but for the most part, and especially those that run for position as president? power hungry. but... err... that might be digressing a bit.)

Besides, I don't think it's really just people from the United States as a whole who are violent - humans in general have always had a violent history. For example - the Rape of Nanking. 
In fact, the few Americans present at Nanking at the time (mostly missionaries) set up a Saftey Zone which is believed to have saved many lives. 
Good point.
If Israel wanted to bomb the Lebanese people, there wouldn't be many Lebanese people left.

That's the thing that makes it so hard to be neutral about this stuff. Tactically, the Israeli Defense Forces go out of their way to minimize civilian casualties, whereas Islamic militants strive for as much death as they are able to inflict, regardless of the targets. And yet the rhetoric is the other way around: Israel is accused of being a warmonger, and the militants are called freedom fighters. Strategically I would agree with you that Israel's counterattack was way out of proportion to the original hostage-taking, but with all the Islamic bullshit Israel has to put up with, as well as the tacit scorn of most of the rest of the world, I honestly can't say I blame them. I would probably make the same decision myself. This lovely planet of ours would be a lot better off without Islamic crusaders. Without religion of any stripe, to be perfectly honest...but the militant radicals are the worst kind.
Well, you should be thankful that the Lebanese government is only half Muslim, and the President is Christian, or we would have more Israeli casualties. Plus, it isn't like Lebanon captured Israeli soldiers for no reason; they want Israel to free their own militants. And eye for an eye. Plus, this conflict goes way back, so you can't automatically say that Israel is totally not at fault.

At that, I don't support Hezbollah anymore than I support the Israelis. I don't support Hezbollah because they attack innocent civilians. Israel says it is trying to attack Hezbollah bases specifically, but so far, many towns have been attacked which are no way affiliated to Hezbollah.

Plus, Hezbollah was only formed to repel invading Israeli forces back in the last Israel-Lebanon war. Oh, and because they thought Ayatollah Khomeini was hip.

Lord J Esq

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Re: United States of America: Nation of Evil?
« Reply #51 on: July 25, 2006, 05:10:16 am »
When a nation is surrounded by hostile neighbors and can expect little relief and littler support from any of the world powers, to accuse this nation of being warlike and aggressive is a bit of a fallacy. If Israel had not defended itself in the past, it would not exist today. We dwell in the only world we have. For Israel, survival means war. Nevertheless, nearly all of Israel’s campaigns have been either defensive or counteroffensive. And its few unprovoked offensives have always been strategically defensive in nature, as opposed to offensive or punitive. Despite having so many opportunities to destroy their enemies entirely, and thereby devolve into a true warmonger state, Israel has resisted temptation and remained an honorable figure.

I find it telling that nations all over the world, whilst simultaneously denouncing Israel, nevertheless take it for granted that Israel will cooperate with them and share an impressive amount of strategic information, as we saw when Israel assisted over twenty nations in evacuating their nationals during combat operations in the ongoing Lebanese campaign. We would expect no less from an honorable nation, but it is nevertheless still an impressive sight.

I also find it telling that Israel takes incredible trouble, at enormous expense, to minimize civilian casualties while targeting an enemy whose entire philosophy of warfare is to become indistinguishable from the civilian population. That chap who said a few posts ago that he thinks Israel is using Hezbollah as an excuse to attack civilians, obviously does not comprehend the strength of Israel’s full military power. Were it used indiscriminately, Hezbollah—and a great many of the Lebanese people—would already have been destroyed. But once again we would not expect an honorable nation to target civilian populations.

Israel’s enemies don’t typically bother cooperating with foreign governments to evacuate civilians from a combat zone. Nor do these radicals warn civilians in advance of significant military strikes, as Israel has done. Indeed, the modus operandi of many militant organizations is to strike without any warning at all at the most opportune targets possible. However you slice it, it isn’t just the power that is in Israel’s favor, but the honor too.

So, Zeppy, when you accuse Israel of being not without its share of the blame, you are only correct inasmuch as Israel has refused to lie down and perish. The “blame” for all this war lies entirely with the haughty Arab state tyrants of yesteryear, and the radical Islamist militants of today. Israel’s greatest fault is that it continues to allow its good name to be besmirched by people with a religious agenda.

Burning Zeppelin

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Re: United States of America: Nation of Evil?
« Reply #52 on: July 25, 2006, 05:47:25 am »
I'm not denying that Israel isn't showing it's ultimate power yet. If they had shown it's true power, Lebanon would be nuclear waste by now. But Israel isn't one to anger allies, and even the most strong allies would condemn Israel for such a massive attack, except of course the US. Yet, many places Israel has attacked have not even been connected to Hezbollah. Mosques have been destroyed which were speculated for being 'bunkers', and official Lebanese militia have even been targetted.

Lebanon:
Quote
According to various media, between 350 and 390 people are reported dead. Additionally, there have been between 480 and 600 people wounded, and over 700,000 have been made refugees, with an unknown number of missing civilians in the south.

Hezbollah acknowledges 13 killed. IDF Chief of Staff Lt. General Dan Halutz has claimed that close to 100 Hezbollah fighters have been killed at 22 July, in land fighting in South Lebanon.

Israel:
Quote
24 Israeli soldiers have been killed (including one pilot, killed in an collision between two helicopters, and two in another helicopter crash, also 4 sailors were killed after INS Hanit was hit), 2 captured, and 71 more wounded.

17 civilians have been killed, while another 418 civilians were treated in hospitals, 19 of whom were seriously injured, and another 875 treated for shock.

Foreign (noticed who caused the deaths):
Quote
  • Seven Lebanese-Canadian members of a family from Montreal, including four children, were killed and six severely injured by an Israeli attack on Aitaroun in South Lebanon on 16 July. An eighth member of the family died later from injuries sustained in the blast.
  • A family of four Brazilians, including two children, was killed in the Israeli bombings in Srifa, drawing condemnation from foreign relations minister Celso Amorim. Another Brazilian child was killed in an Israeli strike in Tallousa.
  • Four members of a German-Lebanese family, including two minors, from Mönchengladbach, Germany were killed in an Israeli airstrike in Chehour in southern Lebanon while on vacation.
  • The Kuwaiti Foreign Ministry has reported that two Kuwaiti nationals have been killed by Israeli bombing.
  • One Sri Lankan was killed in an Israeli bombing.
  • One Iraqi was killed by Israeli bombing.
  • One Jordanian was killed when Israeli missiles hit trucks near Zahleh in the mountains above the eastern Bekaa Valley.
  • A Brazilian businessman was killed in an IAF missile attack on a factory he owned in Lebanon.
  • An Argentinean woman died 13 July in an Hezbollah rocket attack on Nahariya, Israel.

The entire attacks by Israel is caused basically by one thing: they're fed up. I agree that Israel has had to pay for it's previous attacks by getting attacked by all Arab nation's it has affected. Hezbollah has been one of the main hinderances to the progression of Israel. As such, Israel basically just want to demolish Hezbollah. Destroy them. Israel doesn't care about Lebanese casualties. They aren't their own people. I'm sure if it wasn't for the overwhelming support of the Lebanon by Syria and Iran, and the reaction of other countries, they'd destroy the tiny country of Lebanon, a place smaller than Sydney.

Like I said before, Hezbollah was created to repel the invading Israel. Israel had entered Lebanon in the 80's, as an offensive movement. They said that it was because of terrorist attacks happening in the north of Israel, but they had not only tried to destroy the terrorism, but actually went on to capture the capital.

Actually, the entire conflict was sparked by the state of Israel being created in Arab/Muslim lands. Israel has every right to defend it's land, but you can't deny the right of a people to try and recapture their lands.

Salvadeiro

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Re: United States of America: Nation of Evil?
« Reply #53 on: July 25, 2006, 08:10:29 pm »
Israel wants to go after all Arab goverment parties like Hamas now.  Why? 

Lord J Esq

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Re: United States of America: Nation of Evil?
« Reply #54 on: July 26, 2006, 12:57:21 am »
Israel wants to go after all Arab goverment parties like Hamas now.  Why?

The problem with the Middle East is that Israelis love ice cream. But the weather is hot, and their ice cream melted. Now they are angry--and want revenge!

nightmare975

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Re: United States of America: Nation of Evil?
« Reply #55 on: July 26, 2006, 12:58:38 am »
Thanks to American Propoganda, we have learned that Hamas is evil! :P

Magus068

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Re: United States of America: Nation of Evil?
« Reply #56 on: July 26, 2006, 03:21:03 am »
Everybody wants to claim the holy land.  That's where all the conflicts began in the first place.

Matt Shadows

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Re: United States of America: Nation of Evil?
« Reply #57 on: July 26, 2006, 03:27:36 am »
Israel wants to go after all Arab goverment parties like Hamas now.  Why?

The problem with the Middle East is that Israelis love ice cream. But the weather is hot, and their ice cream melted. Now they are angry--and want revenge!
Smartass! But yet I can't stop laughing.

Lord J Esq

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Re: United States of America: Nation of Evil?
« Reply #58 on: July 26, 2006, 04:52:49 am »
I missed your reply somehow, Zeppy. Here are a couple of my thoughts in response to it.

Yet, many places Israel has attacked have not even been connected to Hezbollah. Mosques have been destroyed which were speculated for being 'bunkers', and official Lebanese militia have even been targetted.

Those claims are false. They originate from the same non-credible sources that accuse Israel of attacking civilian populations every time there is an IDF military operation. But it's always a lie, and we know it because the claims of casualties do not match either the body count or the offensive power of Israeli armament.

One such example: Israel hit one of Hezbollah's operational bases early on in this campaign, and the Hezbollah folks just lied out the side of their teeth and said that it was actually a half-built mosque. But they controlled the area and didn't let third-party reporters into the area to check it out. Meanwhile, Israel's military spokespeople confirmed that it was definitely a militant base. And Israel's military's public relations face, for whatever else you might say about it, is always remarkably candid and verifiably truthful.

The entire attacks by Israel is caused basically by one thing: they're fed up. I agree that Israel has had to pay for it's previous attacks by getting attacked by all Arab nation's it has affected. Hezbollah has been one of the main hinderances to the progression of Israel. As such, Israel basically just want to demolish Hezbollah. Destroy them. Israel doesn't care about Lebanese casualties. They aren't their own people. I'm sure if it wasn't for the overwhelming support of the Lebanon by Syria and Iran, and the reaction of other countries, they'd destroy the tiny country of Lebanon, a place smaller than Sydney.

Israel cares about casualties. They care about casualties so much that the fight against their most egregious, shameless enemies in an honorable and humane way. That's how decent armed forces are. And, perhaps in a more pragmatic vein, Israel avoids civilian casualties for the additional reason that world opinion, which is fundamentally anti-Israel anyway, would not tolerate large-scale civilian deaths. Any way you slice it, Israel has no intention of destroying any civilian population...and many IDF soldiers would find even the mere thought of it reprehensible.

Like I said before, Hezbollah was created to repel the invading Israel. Israel had entered Lebanon in the 80's, as an offensive movement. They said that it was because of terrorist attacks happening in the north of Israel, but they had not only tried to destroy the terrorism, but actually went on to capture the capital.

It is hard for me to defend any preemptive invasion on which I am not expertly informed and in honest support of. In all truthfulness, I think the 1982 war was one of Israel's larger military mistakes. But one thing I can say is that the Israeli desire to free itself of incessant Islamic terrorism was sincere, and justifiable. Whether that justifiability extended to the invasion of Lebanon, I can't say.

Actually, the entire conflict was sparked by the state of Israel being created in Arab/Muslim lands. Israel has every right to defend it's land, but you can't deny the right of a people to try and recapture their lands.

Ever the Islamic optimist. You're a very smart person, and well-mannered. If only you could wake up to the absurdity of your religious beliefs and the political ideology that derives from them. Perhaps those things will come to you with time, as you experience that inevitable teenage rebelliousness we all undergo, and enjoy the benefit of a fuller education.

Burning Zeppelin

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Re: United States of America: Nation of Evil?
« Reply #59 on: July 26, 2006, 05:59:03 am »
I could go on, but we all know our arguments will be purely based on personal opinions, and assumptions. How do we know your sources aren't false? We don't.

Don't Hezbollah know that lying is a major sin? :P

As for my rebellious period, I think London Calling and Nevermind the Bullocks sum it up very nicely.

NEW POINT: UN Peacekeepers bombed by Israeli smart bomb. How does this prove your "Israel is trying to minimize casualties" point, Lord J?
« Last Edit: July 27, 2006, 06:39:49 am by Burning Zeppelin »