Author Topic: Endings  (Read 7991 times)

Daniel Krispin

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Re: Endings
« Reply #15 on: August 07, 2006, 04:30:30 am »
I like the Crono/Miguel idea as well. If you don't do that, I'd maintain you should at least make the two of them NPC soldiers in the Porre army (sort of El Nido mercenaries in their youth fighting abroad).

But anyway, I don't see too much trouble with the dialogue. Yeah, Crono might have survived all those things, but after a time of crisis is over, one tends to relapse. Living in the paradise that is El Nido would certainly have softened him. Moreover, he would likely have been of the opinion that his adventuring days were over. He would thus have been living for what, a few years, with the assumption that he would live out his days as a peasant in peace. When suddenly he comes to Chronopolis, it's like an old shadow or fear from the past that you managed to put behind you suddenly rearing its head - it would be almost more frightening than the original! He walks in and knows - that's why he's afraid, because he's not ignorant. He knows there's a problem. He knows that isn't supposed to be there. He's thinking 'oh, shit, we've got major problems now', and it's unsettling him. A voice? Is that Lavos? No, it can't be... can it? That sort of thing. After all, think about it - what is more frightening than an enemy you thought defeated resurrected? When Sauron was suddenly proven to be alive, even wise Gandalf was afraid; when the company journeys through Moria, and the unexpected happens - a Balrog of Morgoth, a demon of ancient days 6,000 years past, a champion of the first and far more powerful Dark Lord, awakes and stands against him - even he, wisest of the angels, is afraid. He had been around since... well, since creation, had gone on innumerable journeys (as Aragorn puts it when they enter Moria, far darker journeys than this... though he wasn't counting on a Balrog... I think that took the cake for Gandalf, and at that moment he was probably cursing himself for welcoming Pippin along as opposed to say, Glorfindel, who had actually killed a Balrog once before), even this mighty being was afraid. So I don't think that Crono would be some kind of stoic to danger, especially not after having let his guard down for a few years. So the Miguel dialogue doesn't conflict. What might conflict, however, is how FATE manages to imprision him. Serge defeats FATE (defeats Miguel, too, at about the half-way mark), which would imply Serge to be far stronger in battle and all than Crono, which I don't think to be the case. Even if he was weakened, a mid quest Serge would not be able to overcome even an aged Crono.

You see, I would think a post-Fall Crono is nearer the ranger Aragorn from Lord of the Rings - dour, hardened, and probably amongst the toughest fighters one would ever encounter, having forgotten more about combat and magic than most ever learn... especially a kid like Serge who relies on elements. Crono's only mortal equal or greater in the whole world is the dark prince Janus and his sister. That's not to mean he can't get frightened now and again - especially if he knows the potential danger (and age makes someone wary - an older Crono would be far less reckless than the young one apparently is.)

CyberSarkany

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Re: Endings
« Reply #16 on: August 07, 2006, 09:45:03 am »
Well, if you do the Crono=Miguel Ending, you know, you actually make us killing Crono(CC) and that's something I don't like(that's why I don't believe in this theory: Killing Crono, and then not even evil guys who do so, would be anti-cool; Our Hero waiting for ages prisoned in the Tower of Geddon and then gets killed by us  :shock:).

I think both Marle and Crono should survive(just like open ending, they go hiding and build a resistance, something I would expect Chrono Brake to start with), but that's only my opinion.

Agent 12

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Re: Endings
« Reply #17 on: August 07, 2006, 10:31:25 am »
I always envisioned Serge and co. as "Freeing" him instead of "killing" him.  That could just be me compromising though.

--jp

Chrono'99

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Re: Endings
« Reply #18 on: August 07, 2006, 11:35:37 am »
I agree with CyberSarkany about the Crono/Miguel controversy, but in all cases I still think it's too simple to send Crono and Marle into hiding. Even if they couldn't defeat the entire Porrean army, going into hiding (for years!) sounds much more like running away than an action to protect their baby. If they really wanted to protect their baby while continuing to fight, they could have entrusted him/her to a lot of people (Melchior, Crono's Mom, anybody from Guardia Castle, etc.).

Well, we all know that Porre eventually invade, so instead of risking having this rule applied to our game:

Quote from: The Grand List Of Console Role Playing Game Clichés
Maginot Line Rule
It is easy to tell which city/nation is the next conquest of the Evil Empire: its streets are filled with citizens who brag that the Empire would never dare attack them, and would be easily defeated if it tried. (This smug nationalism always fails to take into account the Empire's new superweapon.)

Why not twist the event a bit and make the invasion actually surprising to the player? i.e., why not say that Porre were actually the good guys in the war? This would explain a bunch of stuff and contradict nothing in my opinion.

Imagine if Guardia were the bad guys, what would Crono and Marle have done? Imagine if there was some sort of anti-Monarchy rebellion in Guardia with support from nearly all the population: would Crono and Marle try to protect the king? probably, but would Crono and Marle draw swords against their own population? I don't think they would. I believe they would prefer to try some diplomatic talk rather than to go slaughter Fritz and compagny.

With these popular uprisings, the Porreans would appear as the good guys. Opposed to the age-old monarchal state of Guardia would be Porre, the modern state driven by trade and liberalism (I say Liberalism because the Viper Clan from Porre actually ruled El Nido, it wasn't a "personal property of the Emperor of Porre" or anything like that).

Thus, Porre would ally with the rebel Guardian population to help fight the monarchy. The only real massacre would be committed by the guy who stole the Masamune, but Porre itself would not touch the population (of course, since they're allies). On the contrary, they would protect it and fight back the Masamune stealer.

Crono and Marle would help defeat the guy who stole the Masamune. They would point at the massacre he committed to try to convince the population that Porre are just a bunch of evil imperialists, but the population would point at the fact that the guy would never have committed this massacre to being with if he hadn't been driven mad by the Masamune, a weapon coming from the Guardian monarchy.

Unable to prevent Porre from effectively assuming control of Guardia, Crono and Marle would be forced to either go into exile OR resort to accept the popular movement so that they could keep on living in the country. The latter choice is notable because that's probably what Lucca did herself ("what's done is done, I should take care of all those orphans now instead of drawing weapons again and risking another massacre"... something like that). This would explain why Lucca stayed in Guardia after the fall and even continued to buy goods from Porre.

I don't think there's anything in the games which contradicts this point of view. It explains what Crono and Marle could have done, what Lucca did, and even why Guardia became a sovereign country again by 1,020 AD (Porre assumed control for some years to help organize things, and they withdrawn from the country when the new government was ready).

Norris' Frozen Flame quote may also point towards this theory (Porre is menaced by other major countries). Radius' comment about Guardia having once been a "peaceful country" could refer to the times before the monarchy became unpopular, and could mean that the new country is still not totally stabilized. Radius claiming that Porre are bad could be attributed to the fact that the Acacia Dragoons became opposed to Porre years after 1,005 AD. And of course, by 1,020 AD Porre became effectively a little militaristic, but that's 15 years after the incident with Guardia.

The only thing to gap is to find a reason for the population to rebel against the Guardian royalty, but it's not really difficult. Stuff like that happened a lot of times in real history.


So... comments?
« Last Edit: August 07, 2006, 11:47:28 am by Chrono'99 »

Agent 12

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Re: Endings
« Reply #19 on: August 07, 2006, 11:52:37 am »

Quote
The only thing to gap is to find a reason for the population to rebel against the Guardian royalty, but it's not really difficult. Stuff like that happened a lot of times in real history.

That seems kind of stretched.   Even if we did change the Crimson Echoes text, things seemed awfull peaceful two years prior to the game.

Another problem is we've spent an awful lot of time making Porre out to be a Militaristic bad guy already.


--jp

Chrono'99

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Re: Endings
« Reply #20 on: August 07, 2006, 12:01:05 pm »
Porre are the bad guys in the game, but it's only because of King Zeal no? Without him, things would be different.

Also, IIRC Porre is helped by a Reptite to attack Guardia in 1,005 AD in the current story outline. If this Reptite guy manipulates the Guardian population instead of Porre, this could provide one reason for the pop to rise against the king.

CyberSarkany

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Re: Endings
« Reply #21 on: August 07, 2006, 12:30:03 pm »
Do we actually know that guardia is defeated during the event in CC? I know it is quoted somewhere, but who knows if it's true(they could just have said so people in El Nido won't fight against them or something).
Wasn't Norris(the one you don't play) called back to Porre? Maybe because Guardia launched a counter attack and they needed all forces?

As long as Crono survives, I don't care :fanboy:

Chrono'99

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Re: Endings
« Reply #22 on: August 13, 2006, 07:22:57 pm »

Vehek

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Re: Endings
« Reply #23 on: August 13, 2006, 07:26:26 pm »
How many endings can you have? From what I've read, you don't have any portals to take you to King Zeal at any point in the game.

Vargose

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Re: Endings
« Reply #24 on: August 14, 2006, 10:24:20 am »
How many endings can you have? From what I've read, you don't have any portals to take you to King Zeal at any point in the game.

Not yet, we don't. But be sure that we will.

Agent 12

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Re: Endings
« Reply #25 on: August 14, 2006, 11:07:16 am »
wow......can't believe we never looked at that before........damn

I'm pretty sure we'll probably add the "blue light" to the telepod room again to take them to the end of the game for ending purposes.

--jp

Chrono'99

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Re: Endings
« Reply #26 on: August 14, 2006, 02:54:46 pm »
Does my "Guardian Revolution" theory interest someone? I ask because I should consider posting it in the Analysis forum if not.

ZeaLitY

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Re: Endings
« Reply #27 on: August 14, 2006, 03:23:29 pm »
Yeah, it's already in the Fates of the CT Team article in some form. My only question is what happens to Crono and Marle after they go into exile. Should they be implied to have some kind of return later on?

Chrono'99

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Re: Endings
« Reply #28 on: August 14, 2006, 04:00:16 pm »
They may have come back, considering the drawings in Lucca's orphanage.

nightmare975

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Re: Endings
« Reply #29 on: August 14, 2006, 09:17:11 pm »
Why don't we use Chrono Crisis's theory?