Author Topic: The relationship between Magus' magic & Time/Space  (Read 12473 times)

Chrono'99

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Re: The relationship between Magus' magic & Time/Space
« Reply #90 on: October 24, 2006, 10:47:01 am »
A blackhole would have sucked far more than just a castle into oblivion. I wonder, if Lavos threw Crono and co back in time, where did Magus's castle go?

The question is not where did Magus's castle go, but rather, did Magus's castle go anywhere? The disappearance of the castle could be explained by other, less complicated events. The human army for instance could be the reason why it "disappeared". Learning that Magus vanished, Guardia could have litterally swept through the Mystic island, destroying the castle and forcing the confused and leaderless Mystics to retreat.

I think this makes sense, because Ozzie, Slash and Flea are precisely said by NPCs to have "ran off" from Magus's castle to Ozzie's fort. You can run off from an attack led by human soldiers, but can you really run off from a giant time portal's grasp, which would be growing and sucking everything in its passage?

DBoruta

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Re: The relationship between Magus' magic & Time/Space
« Reply #91 on: October 24, 2006, 05:40:25 pm »
Quote from: Chrono'99
The question is not where did Magus's castle go, but rather, did Magus's castle go anywhere? The disappearance of the castle could be explained by other, less complicated events.
Magus' castle didn't go anywhere.  We know this because of what you already said about Ozzie, Slash, and Flea running off to Ozzie's fort.  Other evidence that clearly shows Magus' castle was still present in 600 A.D. was that after the enormous gate (which I agree with the proposal that it was actually created by Lavos, although it was Magus' summoning spell that actually created the linkage from Lavos' pocket dimension to Magus' chambers) closed, Magus' chambers were still present and presumably somewhat intact.  A temporal distortion of that magnitude could have caused the castle to become structurally unsound.  We also are given hints that the castle was still present by this quote:

Quote
[Knight]
   Since you didn't come out of
   Magus's castle, I simply thought...

This implies that there was still a castle there, although it may or may not have been in one piece. 

Also, we are given a hint that the human army "easily" defeated the mystic army after Magus' disappearance with these quotes:
Quote
[Knight Captain]
   We destroyed Magus's troops and
   we owe it all to Crono.

[Knight]
   Magus's troops are pretty tame
   when he's not leading them!


Anyway, it's very possible that the humans themselves destroyed Magus' castle, although I would be more inclined to think that it became structurally unsound after the huge gate in Magus' chambers closed, and the castle eventually crumbled to the ground. 

 

ShoeMagus

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Re: The relationship between Magus' magic & Time/Space
« Reply #92 on: November 12, 2006, 09:42:02 pm »
I figured the backlash of a pissed off Lavos whose half asleep (much like my family members) destroyed Magus's Castle.

So....to recap:

*Chronoverse composed of Four Elements ruling all physics: Shadow, Lightning, Fire, and Water

*Magus had a magical attack called BlackHole. This could very well be the equivalent in the Chronoverse to a blackhole in real life. Since he is a Shadow user, it is reasonable to assume that the BlackHole is composed of Shadow and that Magus controlled the force of it.

*He probably figured out some dimensional/time manipulation in his attempt to get Lavos. Evidence? Magus makes some connection with Lavos during the ritual you break in on. Also, after 600 A.D. Magus vanishes in the normal timeline (meaning before Crono goes back in time and starts playing around). What happens? He probably suceeds in making contact with Lavos and gets the royal crap kicked out of him. No doubt he's eaten.

Speculation on my part:

Magus was probably very much the scholar while he was mastering dark magic with the Mystics. Everybody talks about Lucca and Belthasar as the scholars on time travel, but what about Magus? What did he get up to while locked away in his castle? Perhaps he deduced SOMEWAY of time travel. Or at least had a theory or two. Did he put them into action? Again not likely. He was confident enough in his ability to take Lavos on and didn't seek artifacts like the Sun Stone as I said earlier. But maybe after experiencing Time Travel with the team, he refined his ideas. Especially coming into contact with Lucca and Belthasar again. He does something cause he appears again in the present in RD (yes other dimension, but still relevant) and there is always that mysterious shadow in Viper Manor.

He managed to get around somehow, no doubt buoyed by his knowledge of historical events.

Magus_Brokenhart

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Re: The relationship between Magus' magic & Time/Space
« Reply #93 on: May 23, 2007, 09:35:44 pm »
Well, the Black Hole Magus creates does absorb things in, so where do they go to? Black Holes can, in theory, be made in other ways but collapsed stars. All you have to do is create enough mass in  a small area to create a lot of gravity no? Magic does not have to make sense. The spell could probably replicate a black hole, while safeguarding with limitations as to protect the planet.

alpha

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Re: The relationship between Magus' magic & Time/Space
« Reply #94 on: August 22, 2007, 09:14:12 pm »
Quote
*Chronoverse composed of Four Elements ruling all physics: Shadow, Lightning, Fire, and Water

expanded chrono verse makes that

light shadow air earth((for some reason tornado falls under this)) water and fire

V_Translanka

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Re: The relationship between Magus' magic & Time/Space
« Reply #95 on: August 22, 2007, 09:57:34 pm »
Expanded what?

You're incorperating the CC Elements into actual Magic?

alpha

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Re: The relationship between Magus' magic & Time/Space
« Reply #96 on: August 28, 2007, 12:43:03 pm »
not really.. the cc game has 6 innate Colors((elements)) now that cant just be because of the draconic elements.. anywya the point made was that not the enitre chrono verse runs on the same setup. but as was also said in this thread magic does not have to make sense.

Katie Skyye

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Re: The relationship between Magus' magic & Time/Space
« Reply #97 on: July 23, 2008, 04:21:50 pm »
Hmmm...despite the fact that this topic seems fossilized, I'd still like to ask a question, though if it doesn't get answered due to lack of interest (or because it was already answered elsewhere), I won't feel offended:

Why are we trying to prove whether it's possible for Magus to summon a real-world black hole? The original question was whether Magus had control (however minor) of time or space...isn't it possible that the 'Black Hole' is not a gravity well, but a portal into a void? Perhaps the Darkness Beyond Time (though this isn't likely...considering that there weren't a bunch of random enemies ALSO fused with the Time Devourer))? Magus may or may not know where his 'Black Hole' ends up (or maybe he does, whatever), but has anyone even considered that he might not be summoning a real black hole, but a dark portal of some sort? It seems reasonable that it would be easier to open a portal to nowhere and toss something in than, for example, to open a portal to a specific location/dimension (Lavos' pocket dimension) and to pull out a specific being (Lavos), especially when said being is HUGE...thus explaining why Magus would be able to cast Black Hole in a normal battle, instead of having to prepare a summon.

I'm sure there's lots of holes in that theory...so feel free to point them out. I'd like to know the answer to this question as much as anyone else...

Xenterex

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Re: The relationship between Magus' magic & Time/Space
« Reply #98 on: November 13, 2008, 08:04:59 am »
Quote
Hmmm...despite the fact that this topic seems fossilized, I'd still like to ask a question, though if it doesn't get answered due to lack of interest (or because it was already answered elsewhere), I won't feel offended:


One must know the proper rituals of necromancy if one is to revive the dead and extract wanted information.

I think that Magus does have, and later refines, a magical control over time and space.  To begin, its been mentioned in the game that the core elements as used by innate magic users are the forces that govern the universe.  A universe is all matter and space as a whole, so manipulation of the universe, or utilizing these elemental forces, manipulates space.  By the definition alone, we have 'yes' to 50% of the posed question.  Now, in years past, there was brought up a mention of azala utilizing power in a comparable way.  However, in azala's case, the tip off is found in his ability psychokinesis, the ability to move objects by mental power alone.  The repites were acknowledged as being smarter than the apes, and a common element in stories is a refined intellect leads to 'mind over matter' effects, or psionics.  His "teleportation" tech is probably the same psionic as the one he uses to move your characters about, but it given a different name to prevent confusion.  Psychic powers probably aren't on the same level of space/time manipulation here.

On a side note, azala's display of psionic power leads me to think the draconics wouldn't even develop Elements that apprear in CC in the first place, so any involvement about how that system would explain time/space manipulation, I dismiss. 

Now, as far as time manipulation goes, I get the first tip off from janus' famous reference to the 'black wind.'  From talking to other people from Zeal, it is revealed that those who can use magic have an 'aura' about them.  Aura's then have something that can be read.  Janus' insight, and Schala's confirmation, may have been based on what they could interpret from this aura.  He might not be specific about who was going to die for a number of reasons.

1) Because several people were going to die from Lavos' attack.
2) Because the constant presence of magic makes it difficult for him to completely read, but due to his stronger abilities, he's at least able to narrow it down to Chrono's group.  Schala, who is either not as capable in this regard or at least preoccupied with concerns for her mother, doesn't notice this when she meets with crono and company.
3) he's just being an ominous brat.  But even then, his mention still merits noting, because schala still senses something too.

In the case that Janus is only able to single out Crono as the tragic element here of the 'black wind' what makes him stand out then?  Because Crono is important to time.  Gasper mentions that the Chrono Trigger only works for those who are important to time, and since it works for Crono, he is then important to time.  When Magus mentions the black wind when you fight him in his castle could have 3 possible reasons:

1) Again, he is sensing that Crono will die.  However, at this time he thinks its because he (Magus) will kill Crono.
2) He is sensing his own death.  Without Crono/Frog's interference here, its assumed that Magus dies here when he summons Lavos.  Since time/the future isn't certain/absolute he could still sense the potential for significant deaths, as I would say the Magus is also important to time. 
3) He's just saying it to be intimidating.  However, I doubt that the "black wind" would necessarily be interpreted at 'death' to Crono and crew, it might be a wasted taunt, and thus not something Magus would say, as he doesn't seem to be one who waste words. 

Additionally, when confronting Magus after Crono's death, how does Magus know that the Guru of Time is even still alive, let alone have the means to bring Crono back?  It could simply be that Magus knew from his own experience that Gaspar simply when through a time hole, and the Chrono Trigger was started/completed beforehand, and Janus knew of the project.

The next factor in wether or not Magus can manipulate time is because Marle can do it.  Marle's spell, haste, accelerates a person's actions, or enhances their frame of time.  As Marle is a descendant of the Zeal royal line, or at least assumed so since the family pendant is passed down, I take this is a genetic reference to the Zeal command over time/space, which is not only evident by Schala sealing a time gate, but also in Queen Zeals Black Omen.  While the Omen's ability over time may be due to either its connection to Lavos, and his abilities over time/space or a built in feature since the Ocean Palace was designed by wise men who manipulate time themselves, is irrelevant to my point.  Significant features/boss battles aren't repeated in the Black Omen through time, because?  Because like Dalton (who mind you is another example of manipulation of time/space) Zeal probably summons those creatures through a time void at the moment you come to attack her.  Once the creature has been pulled through time, and killed, it can't be pulled again, since it no longer exists, and therefore can't be there to fight you in another time.

So why doesn't magus have haste, or any other nifty time spells in his arsenal then?  Probably to condense his already impressive repertoire of spells, and also give a unique skill set for each character for various strategy combinations, particularly since Marle is already on the weak side of pairings.   The one exception to this is his skill 'black hole' While i don't think this is a real 'black hole' by any means, I think its a reversal of what Dalton and Zeal do.  Instead of summoning creatures through a void (that I guess they stored in there)  he instead simply tries to force them into one.  How he does this can be simply like how Dalton managed to do it, by managing to summon nothing.  So Magus summons 'nothing' and instead something gets sucked in.  The randomness factor is probably just a game mechanic so players can't do it to everything as a means of simplifying combat, or beating fights they might not have otherwise won.

So does this mean Magus opens up time portals and can do whatever he wants with history?  Not Necessarily.  Here I'm just suggesting that he has at least some form of control over time/space, and not a complete mastery of it.

Magus_Brokenhart

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Re: The relationship between Magus' magic & Time/Space
« Reply #99 on: March 08, 2009, 09:26:07 am »
Well, the way that Magus' Black Hole pulls the enemies in seems to be via condensed gravity. Trying to prove that the Black Hole he creates is real is vital importance because Black Holes mess around with space-time, opening up the probability of time travel or inter-dimensional travel (Darkness beyond time). His ultimate spell, Dark Matter also has to do with space. I don't think it is too far-fetched that Magus eventually learns to have some control on time travel.

Francel

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The relationship between Magus magic Time/Space
« Reply #100 on: July 27, 2016, 11:30:23 am »
All laws of physics are limited and according to QT
when they go to the limit all physical parameters space,
 time, energy, mass  . . .  disappear.
 This limit according to QT is called  "vacuum".
But these physical parameters can be reborn through
 "vacuum fluctuation/transformation"   
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