Author Topic: Real World Influences  (Read 46127 times)

ZeaLitY

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Real World Influences
« on: May 27, 2004, 06:59:28 pm »
This is a basic framework for now. We're going to be doing a real world influences article soon as a summer kickoff. It is a collaboration, and this shall be reflected in its authorship ("FATE" will be edited to 'Collaboration' and I will post the article with that username).

~

Real World Influences on the Chrono Series
Collaboration

  • Historical Parallels
  • Name Origins
  • Sociopolitical Trends
  • Religious Analogies
  • [/list:u]
    Name Origins is mostly done; I'm going to add what I've compiled in the Encyclopedia on the subject. BlackOmen34 initiated this section. Sociopolitical Trends has a thread on Analysis, called 'Governments in the series.' My old post on the subject will also help; for Historical Parallels, we can talk about the dating system and list Chrono'99's mythology of the Chrono series.

    Alright, let us get cracking. Feel free to comment on anything or make your own suggestions. Anything discussed will be added to this post.

Historical Parallels

Dates
Calendar System
600 A.D.'s Holy War
Atlantis

Chrono Theogenia
Chrono'99


Chrono Plot, by Chrono'99

a) Gaia, goddess of the Earth, was oppressed by Uranus, god of Space.
b) The Entity (Planet) was oppressed by Lavos.
a) Gaia sends her son Cronos to kill Uranus.
b) The Entity sends Crono to kill Lavos.
a) Cronos castrates Uranus.
b) Crono sends Lavos to the Darkness Beyond Time.

a) Cronos devours each of his children each time one of them is born.
b) Crono's party (see Lucca's letter in CC) feels that they 'killed' the people of the former future, even before they were born, by creating the new time-line.
a) Zeus, one of his son, kills Cronos.
b) ??? (maybe FATE somehow kills Crono)
a) Gaia sends the Giants (who are actually giant reptiles) to defeat Zeus.
b) The Entity sends the Dragonians to defeat FATE.
a) Their chief Python is sealed in the Tartarus.
b) The Dragon God is sealed in the Darkness Beyond Time.

a) Prometheus steals the Fire from Zeus to give it to the Humans.
b) Prometheus requisitions the Frozen Flame from FATE to 'give' it to Serge.
a) The Humans gain some powers against Zeus.
b) Serge defeats FATE.
a) (a late Orphic sect belief) The Humans can manage to fuse with the Universe by meditating.
b Serge defeated the Devourer of Time and merged back the dimensions.

SilverEagle: if you think of the militaristic Porre which was created by the change in time as crono's "son" and if porre conquered guardia then crono may have died in the process.

Name Origins

Section initiated by BLaCKOmeN34

Contributors: Blackomen34, Chrono'99, CMKTacTican, Daredevil34, DarkBear33, Duke Darkwood, FeralCats, geekboyzero, Guardian of Ages, John Mark, Swordmaster, Tenkostar17, V Translanka, ZeaLitY

Note that the name origins here and in the Encycylopedia shall become identical. We'll smooth out those edges once we get all the name origins listed themselves.

=Aeon Blade

Aeon can signify an indefinite period of time, or, in Gnosticism, emanations from the Supreme Being.

=Alfador

Norse for all-father, often used as a title for the great god Odin.

=Anemetor

Aneme is the Latin root of life or soul.

=Angelus Errare

The words are latin, but the given meaning in CC is not.

Angelus - which may only be in ecclesiastical (sp) Latin, which I'm not well versed in - means Angel (singular, though).

Errare means "to wander". Which does NOT necessarily imply losing one's way, as the game intends it to.

Together, it is a grammatically incorrect construction, since they chose to use the infinitive form of the verb. "Errat" would be the proper 3rd Person Singular for that verb. "Angelus Errat" - "An angel wanders." To put it in the plural, we'd have "Angeli Errant", if I'm declining angelus correctly. Angels wandering.

If I were not so rusty at Latin - I took two years in HS and another two in college, but it's been as long again since either - I could try giving you the Latin for "Where angels lose their way." But that task is beyond me these days.

=Antipode

Antipode means direct or diametrical opposites.

=Arni

Arni is a preposition in Welsh, meaning "on it," but that doesn't really make any sense. It also seems to be a common name in Northern Europe.

=Atropos

The third and final incarnation of Fate, responsible for cutting the thread of Life, charactized by an aging old lady.

=Belthasar

Babylonian name given to Daniel in the Old Testament of the Bible.

Belteshazzar is a Babylonian name meaning "Beltis protect the king." Beltis is a form of Bel (AKA Baal), who was the most clever deity and sage of the gods.

Belthasar (or Belerizzar, or Belteshazzar, etc) was either a king of Israel or a Neo-Babylonian king near the end of the Neo-Babylonian era when the Israelites/Judeans were permitted to go back to Judah. Belthazzar was the son of Nabonidus. He was installed as ruler of Babylon at a young age, after his father decided to move to Teisa after becoming fed up with his discontented populace. A few years later, the Persian empire came knocking, and both Nabonidus and Belthazzar were killed when the Persians took Babylon. -Ancient Near Eastern History and Culture (W.H. Stiebing, Jr).

In the opening of the Book of Daniel, Nebuchadnezzar is impressed with the wise men of Israel/Judah. In this translation, Daniel is given the name Belteshazzar:

Daniel 1:7
The chief official gave them new names: to Daniel, the name Belteshazzar; to Hananiah, Shadrach; to Mishael, Meshach; and to Azariah, Abednego.

Nebuchadnezzar later has a nasty dream and decides to condemn all of the wise men in the city to death -- including his newly appointed Judean advisors. Daniel won't stand for this, so he asks God to cook up some divine inspiration. God shows Dan what the dream meant, Dan explains it to Neb, and Neb decides to give Dan a promotion. At this point, it almost sounds like Dan is the king of Babylon, which implies that the Judean prophet and the Neo-Bablyonian king that we've been discussing are actually the same person. Hold that thought.

Daniel 2:48-49
Then the king placed Daniel in a high position and lavished many gifts on him. He made him ruler over the entire province of Babylon and placed him in charge of all its wise men. Moreover, at Daniel's request the king appointed Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego administrators over the province of Babylon, while Daniel himself remained at the royal court.

Later, Neb goes ape-nuts and decides to leave Babylon. His son, King Belshazzar (notice the distinct spelling in this translation) assumes the throne. Belshazzar invites Daniel, or Belteshazzar, as he is known, to a feast.

Daniel 5:1-3
King Belshazzar gave a great banquet for a thousand of his nobles and drank wine with them. While Belshazzar was drinking his wine, he gave orders to bring in the gold and silver goblets that Nebuchadnezzar his father had taken from the temple in Jerusalem, so that the king and his nobles, his wives and his concubines might drink from them.

Daniel works his dream-magic and impresses Belshazzar. Belshazzar gives Dan another token promotion. This implies that Daniel (Belteshazzar) and King Belshazzar of Babylonia are very different people :D. Belshazzar doesn't stick around too long, though, as King Cyrus shows up and steps rather firmly on his neck. The Medes are given control of Babylon, and things deteoriate rather rapidly after that:

Daniel 5:29-31
Then at Belshazzar's command, Daniel was clothed in purple, a gold chain was placed around his neck, and he was proclaimed the third highest ruler in the kingdom.
That very night Belshazzar, king of the Babylonians, was slain, and Darius the Mede took over the kingdom, at the age of sixty-two.

=BesomC29

A "besom" is a broom or a bundle of twigs used as a broom. Cu is the Elemental Symbol for Copper (cuprum), which is 1/3 of the makings for the Besom Cu29. 29 also happens to be the Atomic Number for Copper.

=Betta Carotene

Betta could refer to two things: Beta, as in it's the second Carrot Weapon or Better, as in it's better then the "Carrot" Carrot Weapon. Beta Carotene is a deep yellow or red crystalline hydrocarbon, C40H56, found in carrots, etc., and changed in the body to vitamin A.

=Black Wind

From the Arabic 'huayra yana', which is the wind of ashes that comes when someone is dying

=Bunyip

Bunyips are mythical creatures created in Australian lore...

From: http://www.icidal.com/xproject/archives/cryptozoology/bunyip.html

'According to Aboriginal legend, Bunyips are creatures that lurk in swamps, billabongs, creeks, riverbeds, and waterholes. They emerge at night, making terrifying, blood-curdling cries, and devour any animal or human that dare venture near its abode. The Bunyip's favourite prey is said to be women.
Fearing to go near suspected Bunyip haunts, the Aborigines shared their fearsome legends with early white settlers. After hearing such tales, they became fearful of strange, loud noises at night, and seriously considered the existence of the Bunyip Monster.
Descriptions of Bunyips include a wide spectrum of appearances from animal to spirit. Some describe the Bunyip as a gorilla-type animal (kinda like bigfoot, or the Australian Yowie), while others say it is half animal, half human or spirit. Bunyips come in all sizes, shapes, and colors. Some are described to have long tails or necks, wings, claws, horns, trunks (like an elephant), fur, scales, fins, feathers...any combination of these.'

=Chrono (Crono)

Chrono is the Greek root for 'time.'

=Chronopolis

Greek for 'Time city.'

=Clotho

The first incarnation of Fate, responsible for spinning the thread of Life, characterized by a young girl.

=Criosphinx

Based off the Sphinx of Giza, which guards the gates to the city, and asks a famous riddle: What walks on four legs in the morning, two in the afternoon, and three at night (mankind)", and tears to shreds those who cannot answer. Oedipus correctly answered the question, prompting the sphinx to kill itself. Crio means 'I create' in Portoguese.

=Cyrus

Cyrus might be named after Cyrus the Great, or Cyrus II of Persia, who united several peoples under his rule, rebelled against the Medes to establish the first Persian empire, and made peace with the Babylonians. Between 550 and 540 B.C., he was possibly in the East while his forces attacked the Lydians of Greece. Cyrus then turned against the Babylonians, who were sufferring from major discontent after the current king, Nabonidus, alienated the priesthood. Cyrus simply marched into Babylon and demonstrated that he would rule as a Babylonian, and many believed him to be a legitimate successor to the throne; in this gesture, Cyrus also gained the Assyrian lands. Little is known of his personal history after this, as he may have made plans against the Egyptians (his successor was able to swiftly subdue them shortly after Cyrus's death in 529 B.C.).

=Dead Sea

Sea in Middle East known for its large salt deposits and lack of substantial flora/fauna as a result.

=Deva

In Hindu Mythology, a god; a deity; a divine being; an idol; a king.

=Doan, Dwayne (Japanese name)

From the Gaelic 'dubhan', which means 'little and dark'

=Doreen's Dialogue

"Am I man dreaming that I am a butterfly or a plate of shashimi dreaming I'm a bowling ball? Never assume what you see and feel is real." That is actually a reference to Lao Tzu. Yeah, he's the Taoist guy who wrote the Tao Te Ching and some other stuff. According to legend, after he arose from his sleep he proclaimed he had a most vivid dream. He dreamt that he was a butterfly and all his experiences he perceived to be utterly real. He then stated (more or less), "Am I man dreaming that I was a butterfly or am I a butterfly dreaming that I am a man?" The famous passage helped relate many of the metaphysical principles of eastern and even western religion.

=Einlanzer

"Ein" is German for "a," and "lanze" is German for "lance"... Anyway, since German is the root of early English, and that's where we get a lot of stories of knights and holy swords (King Arthur, Beowulf, Sir Gawain, etc.)

=El Nido

El Nido is Spanish for "The Nest." Appropriate, as El Nido is the nest out of which the salvation of the world shall rise.

=Ferrous Gun

Ferrum is Latin for Iron, "Fe" being the symbol for Iron in the Periodic table.

=Gaea's Navel

Gaia is Mother Earth in Greek Mythology.

The Chinese mythology told of a mountain in the center of the universe called Mt Hualin (or something....I'm probably way the hell off) that only an enlightened man riding a dragon can reach. Now picture a Chinese dragon and think of how Serge got to Gaea's Navel. Riding a Wingapede has at least a vague semblance to the Asian dragon.

=Gaspar

GASPAR - Spanish and Portugese variant of JASPER, which is Persian for "the treasurer." Jasper is also the name of a gemstone that looks very much like a certain red stone mentioned in the game.

=Giga Mutant

"Giga" means x10^9, or a billion times.

=Golem

In Jewish folklore, an artificially created human supernaturally endowed with life.

=Graedus

Engrish for Gladius, which is Latin for sword.

Gradius means step, staircase, degree, grade, etc.

=Greco

Greco is Spanish for Greek -- Greece is famous for inventing wrestling. A famous Spanish painter was also named El Greco.

Greco lives with Romana -- Greco-Roman wrestling.

=Gravitor

Gravi is the Latin root for gravity or dark emotion.

=Guile

Guile means craftiness, or to be cunning.

=Harle

Short for Harlequin, a conventional buffoon of the commedia dell'arte, traditionally presented in a mask and parti-colored tights, or an adjective meaning having a pattern of brightly colored diamond shapes.

[Obsolete French, from Old French Herlequin, Hellequin, a demon, perhaps from Middle English *Herleking, from Old English Herla cyning, King Herla, a mythical figure identified with Woden.]

Harle is French for merganser, which is a fish eating diving duck that has a hooked beak and a crested head.

=Hydra

12-headed serpent demon in Greek Mythology

=Irenes

Irenes means 'peace' in Old Greek (eirene), although it must also be a pun on Siren(e)s.

=Janus

Two-headed Roman god with one head looking forward and one looking back. January is named after Janus, to symbolize looking forward to the future, as well as reflecting on the past, as the two heads connotate.

=Kali Blade

Kali is one of the manifestations and cult titles of the wife of Shiva and mother goddess Devi, especially in her malevolent role as a goddess of death and destruction, depicted as black, red-eyed, blood-stained, and wearing a necklace of skulls. It is also said to be the fourth and worst period of the world, considered to have begun 3102 B.C., and to last 432,000 years.

Kali is also the popular name of a martial arts practiced in the Philippines originally used to ward off invading Spanish soldiers. It makes use of several weapons, and was popularized in the 20th century by Dan Inosanto, friend and student of Bruce Lee.

=Kaiser Arm

Kaiser means emperor in German.

=Lachesis

The second incarnation of Fate, responsible for measuring the thread of Life, charactized by a middle-aged woman.

=LadleFe26

A "ladle" is a long handled, cuplike spoon used for dipping. Fe is the Elemental Symbol for Iron (ferrum), which is 1/3 of the makings for the Ladle Fe26. 26 also happens to be the Atomic Number for Iron.

=Lavos

Lavos may be based in part off Cthulhu, a Great Old One of the fictional mythos H.P. Lovecraft created around the turn of the century. The following is taken from the Official Cthulhu Mythos FAQ, by Daniel Harms:

"Cthulhu is a large green being which resembles a human with the head of a squid, huge bat-wings, and long talons (true, that doesn't really resemble a human, but bear with me here). According to H. P. Lovecraft's story "The Call of Cthulhu", Cthulhu rests in a tomb in the city of R'lyeh, which sank beneath the Pacific Ocean aeons ago. Cthulhu is dead but not truly dead, as he and his fellow inhabitants of R'lyeh sleep the aeons away. (Cthulhu is generally thought of as a "he" for some reason.) From time to time R'lyeh comes to the surface, and Cthulhu's dreams influence sensitive individuals across the globe to depict his image, slay, and found cults dedicated to him. In the past, R'lyeh has sunk after a short time, but the day will soon come when it rises to the surface permanently and great Cthulhu strides across a world thrown into chaos and anarchy from his telepathic sendings.

As has been stated before, Cthulhu is not the most important or powerful being in the Mythos, but he wins in terms of sheer popularity among his fans. No one is sure why, but that's the way things are."

Guardian of Ages here draws a similarity between Lavos and Sauron of J.R.R. Tolkien's Lord of the Rings series:

Honestly, the closest thing that I always connect Lavos with is from Tolkien's mythology, and that is Sauron. This is perhaps because Zeal seems very much like to Numenor. In Numenor the people are at first blessed and happy, and far mightier than any other peoples. But in time they tire of the lives granted to them, and begin to wish for immortality. The brink comes when, in despair, the Elven King Gil-Galad calls to Numenor for aid, for back in Middle-Earth (Numenor being in the middle of the sea) Sauron has built a massive army, and prepares to take the whole land. Numenor come to the aid of the Elves, and so great is their power that Sauron is deserted by his armies. Then it is that the Numenoreans make their fatal mistake: they take Sauron back to Numenor as a prisoner. But Sauron is a cunning being (for he had already deceived the Elves, whereby he forged the One Ring), and in time becomes the advisor to the King.

He enflames the desire for immortality in the King's heart, and darkens the hearts of all the people. They turn utterly evil, save for a faithful remnant that is persecuted. Sauron says that if the Numenoreans were to take the Western land of Valinor, where the Powers reside, then should they gain immortality (a lie, of course). Yet the King prepares his fleets, so great that they darken the setting sun, and sails to the West. The Valar are not happy, and calling upon Eru, the One, they lay down their governship of Arda (the Earth), and Eru splits the world, turning it into a sphere (where before it had been flat). Thus the West is lost from the real world. But Numenor, caught in the middle of the fissure, is destroyed. Only the faithful survive, Elendil and his sons Isildur and Anarion, and they land with their ships in Middle-Earth. But never again would they have the glory that was Numenor of old, which, by the way, the Elves call Atalante, the Downfallen. To me, this has always seemed similar to the way that Lavos poisons the mind of queen Zeal, sending her on a foolish quest for immortality that ends in the ruin of the whole land.


=Lode Bow/Sword

'Lode' is the metal ore that fills fissures in rock formations.

=Luminaire

Latin root lumi means light.

=Luxator

Lux is the Latin root for light.

=Magus

Singular form of Magi, or wiseman/user of magic.

The word Magus comes from Simon Magus, the same Simon in the Acts of the Apostles who offered Peter and John money for the power of the Holy Ghost. Read the account for yourselves. Later Christian historians are unanimous in condemning him as a heretic. One story says that he tried to ascend to heaven as Jesus did, only that the prayers of Peter and Paul brought him crashing down again. Regardless, the word Magus has been passed down to mean a sorceror of great power and evil. Only the account contained in the Acts, however, is considered reliable by Biblical scholars.

=Mammon

Mammon--(from Webster's dictionary) The false gods of riches and avarice --OR-- Riches regarded as an object of worship and greedy pursuit, wealth as an evil, more or less personified.

=Marge

Marge, if it comes from Margaret, means 'pearl', and she was the patron saint of expectant mothers.

=Masamune/Murasame

In Japan, two "magical" blades exist. These are Masamune (Mah-sah-moo-nay) and Murasame (Mer-ah-sah-may) swords. If you put the two blades in a river with floating leaves, the Masamune blade would repel the leaves and let them flow safely down the stream, while the Murasame blade would attract and cut them up. The Murasame blade is supposedly cursed, but very powerful. It is so innately cold, that water disperses off it when drawn and exposed to air.

=Medina

Holy city of Islam.

=Mega Mutant

"Mega" means x10^6, or one million times.

=Miguel

Miguel >Michael :
from the Hebrew 'miyka'el', which means 'who is like God', like Michael the archangel.

=Mojo

Mojo is Spanish for gravy, but more accurately means:

A magic charm or spell, an amulet, often a small flannel bag containing one or more magic items, worn by adherents of hoodoo or voodoo, or personal magnetism; charm.

[Perhaps ultimately from Fula moco'o, medicine man.]

=Mt. Pyre, Pyretor

Pyre is the Latin root for 'fire.'

=Mystic Warriors

Ozzy Osbourne, lead singer of Black Sabbath; Slash, guitar player of Guns 'n' Roses, and Flea, bassist of the band Red Hot Chili Peppers

=Mythril

-From the Squaresoft Repository:

Mithril was a rare metal that was invented by J.R.R Tolkien for his fantasy world of Arda, or more specifically, Middle Earth. The name 'Mithril' is Elvish in origin. It was discovered deep within the mines of the Misty Mountains by the dwarves during the Second Age of the Sun, and it was their source of wealth, the reason for their greed, and the cause of their destruction. For their insatiable desire for the silver inadvertently resulted in the release of a Balrog that had been sealed in the mountains, and they were driven away from their homes for ever. It was not until two hundred years that accursed Balrog was finally defeated when he was cast down from the pinnacle of Silvertine by Gandalf the Grey.

"Mithril! All folk desired it. It could be beaten like copper, and polished like glass; and the Dwarves could make of it a metal, light and yet harder than tempered steel. Its beauty was like to that of common silver, but the beauty of mithril did not tarnish or grow dim." [J.R.R Tolkien, The Fellowship of the Ring Chapter IV]

Guardian of Ages: In Elvish the root "mith" signifies "grey" and comes up innumerable times (Mithrandir, another name for Gandalf, is "Grey wanderer"; Mithlond are the grey havens). The second part, "ril", means "gleam", I believe. This also appears in other names, the most notable being "Narsil". Anyway, Mithril thus means "Grey gleam". Also, unless it is either an inconsitency in his story, or a poetic licence that Bilbo takes, Mithril was discovered even in the First Age, and mined by the Elves of the West. In his poem of Earendil at Rivendell Bilbo says that the Elves the Elves used Mithril in the construction of the heavenly ship in which Earendil bears the Silmaril he has in his keeping. Therefore it must in some form exist in the Western lands of Valinor, and perhaps even Tol Eressea. This is not unplausable, because in reference to the animals it says that every type of creature, save those foul ones of the throne of Morgoth, to have ever lived in the world (and even some never seen in Middle-Earth), dwell yet in the West. This is, I would think, because of Yavanna, the Vala who loves the animals. Her husband, the Vala Aule, has a love for the things of the earth, of stone and metal (and it was through his power that the lands of Arda, the mountains and metals and such, were shaped). So it is not unlikely that through his will Mithril would exist in the West as well as in the East.

=Naga-ette

Nagas are a kind of half-human, half-serpent people in Indian mythology, the word simply means 'snake' sometimes.

=Nikki's Forest Song

Sweet sister of mine is likely an allusion to the Guns 'n' Roses Sweet child o'mine.

=Norris

'Northerner' in old French. Could denote Porre as being north of El Nido.

=Pentapus

Bastardization of Octopus, referring to its five legs.

=Prometheus

Prometheus was a mighty Titan. He and his brother Epimetheus were in charge of repopulating the Earth after all living creatures had perished in the early battles of the gods. Zeus gave them great measures of gifts to bestow upon their creations. Prometheus was a devoted artisan, and he put his heart and soul into his creations, now known as mankind. But Epimetheus rapidly made all kinds of animals and lavisehd all the good gifts upon them. When Prometheus went to get the gifts, there were hardly any left, for Epimetheus had stolen all the fur, antannae, tails, retractable claws, prehensile tails, etc.! So mankind really got shafted!

Now Prometheus looked upon his creations with pity, for it was winter and they were freezing to death. He asked Zeus if he could take some of the fire from the sacred hearth for his poor creatures. But Zeus denied him this, saying the fire is fit for only the gods. But Prometheus couldn't stand to see the needless suffering, and stole some fire to bring to the humans. The fire worked wonders! The people began to wonder, and think, and philosophize! But Zeus was angry! And to punish Prometheus for his sly ways, he chained him to a rock, and sent an eagle to eat his liver. But Prometheus, being immortal, grew a new liver right away, and so each day the eagle came and ate Prometheus' liver, for all of eternity.

=Radius

Mathematical term for the distance of a straight line from the center of a circle to any point on the circle.

=Rune Blade

Rune, or runic, a form of writing used by ancient Europeans, embodies many mystical and magical aspects, and was a highly valued form of writing.

=Sea of Eden

Primeval Paradise from the Biblical Old Testament, symbolizing mankind's original perfect union with God.

Eden was the first creation of the new world. The Sea of Eden was the first creation of what became El Nido.

=Serge

Serge is Russian for servant, and Latin for attendant.

=Shiva, Kali

Shiva, The destroyer, is a part of a triangle if you will; Brahmin, the creator, Vishnu, the Protecter, and Shiva, the Destroyer. Now, Shiva is the destroyer of evil; not quite evil herself.

In the tale of Markindaya, Shiva and Kali show to Markindaya that they are both the same; a pillar of light emanates between them.

Kali is not evil; you're taking Terrible in the wrong sense. not Terrible as in evil, but Terrible as in great *IE: It is terrible fun!*

DarkBear33: It's because Kali and Shiva are two incarnations of the same being that is precisely why the reference works - because Kali Blade and Shiva Edge are the same single weapon!

=Siren

In Greek Mythology, Sirens (also sp. "Seirenes," which may be where the mermaid Irenes' name is derived from), are depicted as voluptuous mermaids with such melodic voices as to lure sailors lost at sea (namely, Odysseus) off their boats and onto the rocks, where the Sirens would then do nasty things to them.

=Sonja

Wind goddess from Russian lore

=Termina

The Latin word terminus means "boundary," but Termina probably refers more to its function as a port (like an air terminal).

=Terra Mutant, Terrator

Terra is Latin for Earth.

Tera means 'x10^12,' a trillion times.

=Tesseract

http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/tesseract wrote:

Tesseract

In geometry, the tesseract or hypercube is a regular polychoron,with eight cubical cells.
It can be thought of as an n-dimensional analogue of the cube . Roughly speaking the 4-d hypercube is to the cube as the cube is to the square.
In a square, each vertex has two perpendicular edges incident to it, while a cube has three. A tesseract has four. Canonical coordinates for the vertices of a tesseract centered at the origin are (±1, ±1, ±1, ±1), while the interior of the same consists of all points (x0, x1, x2, x3) with -1 < xi < 1.

A tesseract is bound by eight hyperplanes , each of which intersects it to form a cube. Two cubes, and so three squares, intersect at each edge. There are three cubes meeting at every vertex, the vertex polyhedron of which is a regular tetrahedron. Thus the tesseract is given Schläfli symbol {4,3,3}. All in all, it consists of 8 cubes, 24 squares, 32 edges, and 16 vertices. The square, cube, and tesseract are all examples of measure polytopes in their respective dimensions.


Hypercubes in fiction

Robert Heinlein mentioned hypercubes in at least two of his science-fiction stories. ...And He Built a Crooked House described a house built as a net (i.e. an unfolding of the cells into three-dimensional space) of a tesseract. It collapsed, becoming a real hyperdimensional tesseract.
Glory Road (1963) included the foldbox, a hyperdimensional packing case that was bigger inside than outside. In addition, a reference can be found in The Number of the Beast (1980) wherein the Burroughs continua device uses the hypercube principle to travel interdimensional universes to the incredible number of the beast.
A hypercube is also used as the main deus ex machina of Robert J. Sawyer

's book Factoring Humanity.
The tesseract is mentioned in the children's fantasy novel A Wrinkle In Time , by Madeleine L'Engle , as a way of introducing the concept of higher dimensions, but the treatment is extremely vague. In that book she uses the tesseract as a doorway, which you can pass through and emerge far away from the starting point, as if the two distant points were brought together at one intersection (at the tesseract doorway) by the folding of space, enabling near-instantaneous transportation.

In Alex Garland's 1998 novel "The Tesseract", the author uses the term to mean the three-dimensional net of the four-dimensional hypercube rather than the hypercube itself. It is a metaphor for the characters' inability to understand the causes behind the events which shape their lives: they can only visualize the superficial world they inhabit.

=The Tower of Geddon

Geddon taken from the name "Armageddon". Armageddon itself is often, mistakenly, taken as the name of a day or a battle; it is, in actuallity, a real field of battle. As it says in Revalations "they gathered at the place called Armageddon". It is thought that this stands for Har Megiddo, or "the mountain of Megiddo". The plains of Megiddo fall at a very strategic point, and throughout history many battles have been fought there.

=Three Gurus

Belthasar, Melchior, and Gaspar are three wise men who brought gifts of gold, frankincense and myrrh to the infant Jesus according to legend.

The following is from the afterword of the book "Lamb" by the author Christopher Moore. The novel itself is a work of fiction, but it is based on some truth. Moore did extensive research of both the Gospel and the Bible as a whole before writing. Here's what he says:

"Another Gospel misassumption is that the three wise men were kings, or, in fact, that there were even three of them. We make that assumption because there are three gifts given to the Christ child. Their names are never mentioned. The names Balthasar, Gaspar, and Melchior come to us from Christian tradition written hundreds of years after the time of Christ." (pages 442-3)

When the Catholic church committed those wise men to sainthood, they did so with the names Melchior, Gaspar, and Balthasar. There's no actual record in the primary sources, but all three names were canonized together at a much later date.

A couple of centuries after the Gospels were written (say, 7th or 8th century), though, the names Gaspar, Melchior, and Balthazar were traditionally used to describe the three wise men. Perhaps people were trying to "boost" Jesus' image by showing that royalty from the three major world powers were visiting him -- Balthazar would obviously have been a Babylonian name at the time, while Gaspar/Caspar would have been Persian and Melchior would have been Arabian

=Valkyrie

Valkyrie: Means "chooser of the slain," derived from Old Norse: valr "the slain" and kyrja "chooser". In Norse myth the Valkyries were maidens who led heroes killed in battle to Valhalla.

=Van, Goh

Van Gogh was a reputable French painter.

=Zurvan

Zurvan/Zervan is ancient Persian for "Infinite Time" and could be used as a euphamism for "End of Time".

Sociopolitical Trends

Government Thread on Compendium
Ybrik's working on this one

Religion

Around the turn of the century, a person named Xathael did groundbreaking work in linking the Chrono series to widespread religion. His creation, the Chrono Testament, argued that Chrono Trigger was an allegory for the Bible, and drew several convincing links between the game's characters and the figures of Christianity. Among these are the identification of the three Gurus with the supposed three wisemen who visited Jesus; Queen Zeal is labeled as the Antichrist, while Frog and Cyrus share similarities with St. Thomas and Andrew. In 2003, his Geocities site went down; fortunately, it has been mirrored on the Compendium here.

Firstly, religious imagery can be seen in several places throughout the Chrono series. Obviously, a cathedral exists in 600 A.D. by Guardia Castle, while the village of Guldove carries many Native American tones; the dating system is even loosely based on that of our own, though it is debatable whether a Christ figure ever existed within the series; as stated previously, AD/BC seem to be loose terms that truly refer to the founding of the Kingdom of Guardia. As mentioned in the passage on the crusade-like wars of 600 A.D., Guardia shares several similarities to Christendom. Guardian of Ages neatly summarizes this:

Quote from: Guardian of Ages
Anyway, it is likely a state religion. Manoria cathedral is a relic, an old place of worship that might hearken back to the days of people like the old Celts; note that there is no cross in it, thus it has been out of use for a long time. From what the PSX cutscenes show, this was likely due to a newer cathedral nearer Truce. That cutscene also shows that the wedding is very Western styled, supporting the idea of the Christian belief in Guardia (and presumably the south continant as well).


However, the fact stands that not a single cross is to be seen in the entire Chrono series. Radical Dreamer makes a refutation:

Quote from: Radical Dreamer
I disagree with your interpretation of the lack of crosses. While Guardia is certainly like a Chrisitian kingdom, it is doubtful that it is literally Christian. That world had no Christ, the switch from A.D. to B.C. was the result of the foundation of the Guardia kingdom, those lables used merely for the convenience of the player. The cross probably didn't exist as a symbol of religion, as there was no reason for it to. In the Cathedral, there is a stained glass window of an angel and some roses. Not sure what that is symbolic of in Guardian religion.


It is thus possible that AD/BC is simply a convenience for familiarity; Guardian of Ages later states that sans Christ, AD and BC would be devoid of meaning, but this can, of course be interpreted both ways. The debate continues further:

Quote from: Guardian of Ages
Furthermore, I have always maintained that the Chrono world did indeed have a Christ. The timeline skips very suddenly from Zeal in 11,000 BC to 600AD. Recorded history in our world goes back to approximately 3,000 BC. The oldest walled city, Jericho, is only about 9,000BC. Thus it would not be incongruent to say that the Chrono universe has the same timeline as does ours; there is nothing to contradict it. Uruk, Assyria, the Hittites, Babylonia, Egypt, the Greeks and Romans...all these could exist in the Chrono universe.


Radical Dreamers responds:

Quote from: Radical Dreamer
If you want to take the Chrono world's history as parallel to our own, the analogy falls apart in the prehistoric era...Humans never coexisted with dinosaurs. Early humanoids didn't even begin to show up until about 7 million B.C., long after the extinction of the dinosaurs, and modern man is less than half a million years old.

I agree whole-heartedly that Guardia is modeled after a European, Christian kingdom. However, I cannot make the leap that it is actually Christian. The Mystic Empire is modeled after a Muslim kingdom. Are you also suggesting that there was a Mohammed in the Chrono Trigger world? And if you are assuming a Christ and a Mohammed, we must also assume all the ancient figures of Judaism are represented. That's a lot to base off of the modeling of Guardia after a Christian kingdom.

The switch from B.C. to A.D. is the foundation of the kindom of Guardia. This is clear in the game. A.D. could refer to "Anoitment of the Dominator" and B.C. could refer to "Before the Coming". Also, there is no reason to believe that there was a Christ figure at that time, or that there was any mighty emipre to perform a crucifixtion. For all we know, the first king of Guardia could have simply united a bunch of tribes.


Quote from: Guardian of Ages
There would be no Islamic religious figures because Islam did not rise till the year 640 some, at which point the paralell would have ended (though, yes, I would maintain that all the ancient figures of Judaism would exist, from Abraham/Abram, to Isaac, to Jacob, Moses, Joshua, the Judges, Saul, David, Solomon, Reheboam and Jereboam, and all the kings of Judah and Israel; just as the kings Sargon and Hammurabi exist as well. And does not the folly of Zeal echo of the folly of Babel itself? Or, perhaps, of the myth of the garden of Eden (note that myth is not innately untrue; it is merely a story of explanation). Is there not a flood in CT when Zeal falls? Are not a small remnant saved? Are not the wicked of Zeal wiped out? But as complex and detailed as CT might be, it is beaten every time by true history.

Let's put it this way, though. The game has several names that could not exist without certain cultures, unless you take them to be translations (but then why not into English?). Chronopolis is a Greek name, and thus Greeks must have existed. Else the city would merely have been called Time City. This breaks down with, as I have read here, Alfador havin a Norse meaning. But I have more solid proof. More telling, Miguel in no uncertain language says "Res Nullis". That is, without a doubt, Latin; no quirk of translation can get around it, as it is not a name but a spoken phrase. Also, I think, is Angelus Errare; a name, yet a phrase in a sense. How, then, do you explain the existance of Latin without the Latin tribes, and the Etruscan history that gave birth to Rome? There must be Rome; it is mandatory. Thus, in scientific terms, some history at least must coincide. And if it may, there is chance for others. Rome rises partially through Greek influence, and so then is Greece mandatory. It, in turn, is interconnected with other societies, returning to the origin of written history. Hydras are also a comminality with our own world. And as far as the ancient history in 65,000,000 goes... that's a little extreme, and perhaps wrong, because CC itself contradicts it (setting it closer to 3mil). But returning to the later times...again I say that the wedding tradition is typically Western, inspired by Christianity. Also, as a final capstone to the argument, the term of cathedral is meant to be the church where a bishop sits; bishops are a Christian concept, and thus too are cathedrals, echoing down to Guardia itself.

Now, here is my take on it (purely my own), but could be used without problem as an feigned explanation. In the year 40 a Roman commander, turned to Christianity, flees the persecution of the Emperor Caligula. Taking with him a few of his legions (and thus several thousand men), he colonizes the great continent that lies to the West of Europe: Zenan. Over the years the kingdom flourishes, though through some quirk of fate things occur differently (perhaps the influence of Lavos?). A race of Mystics, the very creatures that populate our real world myths (imps, fairies, elves, giants, trolls, and the such), arise from forgotten woods and shadows (this would be at the same time as our King Arthur tales take place, and would be analagous, perhaps; though in our world those things never existed, in the Chrono world they did). They arise and attempt to drive out the humans, at around the year 600. The rest is as we know. The reason, I say, that the foundation of Guardia is set to 0 is a thing that would not be unlikely in such a Christian culture; they feel that the kingdom is a land of guard (hence Guardia) for believers, and thus feel that the true foundation of their kingdom is none other then the birth of their High Lord, which is traditionally set to 0. So too, then, is the foundation of Guardia set to 0.


Quote from: Radical Dreamer
So if you have a Moses, then you have a Pharoh...and pyramids and a sphynix. Can't recall seeing any of those on the map.

Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't bishops a specifically Catholic institution? If so, shouldn't there be a church heirarchy, complete with pope? In the medeival era, popes were more important than kings, surely we would have heard of a pope if one existed. But there is no mention whatsoever of a pope or pope-like figure.

Since the game takes place all (or mostly) in English, are we to assume that there was in fact an England? Or since the game was orginally in Japanese, are we to assume that there was in fact a Japan, and that Japanese had been around, mostly unchanged, for 65 million years?


Quote from: ZeaLitY
I must also disagree; for example, countless alien races in Star Trek are humanoid and use the English tongue, though English is unfathomably unique to our world and culture. This is a game intended for entertainment; as thus, it may be given philosophical depth and will have pieces of our own culture inextricably linked. The fact stands, however, that a game outside of reality does not have to be totally and completely explained, and it can be deeply flawed. We are fortunate that the Chrono series is consistent, but regardless, it has problems of its own. From the perspective of reality, Masato Kato programmed a Cathedral into 600 A.D. Its lone purpose is to server as the holdling place for Queen Leene. He did not give it any other meaning or value, or this would have been said in-game. We are similarly not left with any religious clues about much at all, only bits that are reminiscent of our own culture. It is perfectly fine for things in human creations of the imaginations to lack meaning or have explanation. This is why most action-adventure movies are crappy; the villain or hero often has no explicable motivation for his actions.


Quote from: Guardian of Ages
Of course they aren't on the map. Neither is El Nido, nor is the area where it is eventually created. Also Bishops are specifically Catholic, but not specifically Roman Catholic. The Eastern Orthodox split with the rest a long time ago, yet unless I'm mistaken they still have magnificent cathedrals, as well as bishops. Also, I would like to point out, that any church that follows the protestant reformation (such as the Lutherans) consider themselves to be the true Catholic church; there is a distinction with the Roman Catholics, based in Rome. They are the only ones that still hold to the papacy.

And yes, I do assume there was an England, and a Japan. The language of the game means very little. After all, the people of Zeal speak a common language with the people of modern times, a near impossiblitity. Communication difficulties were likely left out. What I based my assumptions on was the line of Miguel's in Latin. Were it simply a phrase not in Latin, and just whatever language that was being spoken in, it should have been translated to English. But it was not. Thus Latin does exist. And thus so does all the rest of history, from Zoser and Gilgamesh to Marcus Aurelius and Alaric.

Consider it as a broadening of the CT world. As complex as it is, it can never really compare to the real world. As I have said, this was one of Tolkien's best moves when he wrote his stories, to parallell them, and place it in the real world to some degree. It lends history and realism, and thus greater feeling, than could be accomplished through simple fantasy.


Quote from: ZeaLitY
It is nonetheless flawed in this regard. We lack explanations for certain things wholly, though they still exist. The Chrono series is not wrought of the perfect science of God, but human fallibility.


Quote from: Guardian of Ages
The evidence I have for this parallellism is just as solid as any of the other scientific ones that have been thought of and taken true on this site. If you wish to speak of "intent" and what "it was based on", then 95% of what ZeaLitY has thought up would be wrong, because even the original designers didn't think that far. But he has made logical inferences based on what is shown, and his theories are considered acceptable and true, as there is nothing in either game to disprove them. Even so, this historical theory of mine, though it might be considered far fetched by you, has no basis to be rejected. Just because no mention is made of Christ does not mean that in that He does not exist in the Chrono universe (and, again, if you wish to bring up intent of the designers, being Eastern and such, then many of the things that have been so painstakingly been charted out would need to be dismissed, for they were not intended originally, either.). Even so, I would beg you to dismiss my theories based on evidence in the game (in which case I will revise my theories; not for my story, though, for that is simply literary style to further the story, but in regards to this thread, I will revise it.), rather than just opinion, for in that matter the only thing that you have going for you is that it likely was not the designer intent (which has often been overlooked, anyway). As any true theory, it must at needs change if contradictory matter is found. Yet I have found little of that, save in some of the areas that CT and CC themselves are at odds on.


Quote from: ZeaLitY
Can you disprove my theory that Dalton caused the Fall of Guardia? Not with data in the game; however, for centuries scholars have used the notion of Ockham's Razor -- that is, we should accept and believe more greatly what has more simplicity.


Quote from: Radical Dreamer
Are you suggesting that the Chrono series does in fact take place in our world, that it is a divergent history from the history that our world in fact has experienced?


Quote from: Guardian of Ages
In the end, to your question, I would say, yes, the Chrono universe is somewhat of an alternate split future, save perhaps with the exception of Lavos. That is an interesting quirk, which is likely the splitting trigger; however, as his arrival is very early on, the true split then does occur at about in prehistoric times. However, based on the hibernation of Lavos for such lengths of time, no great change occurs for a great period of time, or at least none readily noticeable. Some will maintain that Zeal and the Dreamstone are products of Lavos, but that to that I have two replies: firstly, I still maintain for lack of ironclad evidence to the contrary that the Dreamstone is a thing of this world. The second is that Zeal is so ancient that its existance hardly affects the ancient world as we know it; even as we hear of Atlantis as but a myth, and it hardly affects us, so too is it with Zeal (which is perhaps that dimensional equivalent of the Atlantean civilization). What I'm basically saying is that, even as Tolkien's Middle Earth can be taken as a prehistory to this world (circa. 5000BC), as he intended, so too can Zeal be looked at in such a light, filling in the shadows of history, though having no absolute bearing on later generation, save in unnoticable echoes of history. Now, not to say that at all points the development of the real world and the Chrono world coincide (as I have said, the true split is likely a prehistoric time), but the similarities even in the differences come together to forge a similar "middle age" as it were. We have Atlantis (the Theran civilization), they have Zeal; in the end, both amount to the same end. They have a flood due to the fall of Zeal, we have a flood attributed, in the Christian tradition (and many others) to the wrath of God. Both events wipe clean civilization. Both bring about a dark age. Thus the state of our world and the Chrono world circa 9000BC is not that different, and I can fully see those who remain in the last villages banding together to build a walled city such as Jericho. And from then...an equivalent, or nearly equivalent, history. People will invariably band together into cities, and then into empires. Now, I understand that in our world, as there never was a Zeal, the birth of different people would result, effictively changing the names of the kings of empires, and perhaps dictating the empires themselves.*(see below)Again, there is no absolute way of refuting that the history of the Chrono universe is all that different than our own. What I say is that there is insufficient factors to greatly change the course of history in a general sense; it only manifests itself in certain eras. The first is at the time of Zeal. The second, with the rise of the Mystics at about 500AD.


Quote from: Radical Dreamers
When you mention these dates, do you mean them as being the same for both worlds? There were no refrigerators or gas stoves 1000 years ago. There were no humans 65 million years ago, and there were no great civilizations 12 thousand years ago. The apocalypse did not occur in 1999, nor were the cities of the world domed. There has not been a single language, shared by both man and dinosaur, that has remained mostly unchanged in that time span. Even if our worlds began the same, the split long before the earliest time periods seen in the game.

Zeal is easily symbolic of Atlantis. I've also heard suggestions that Zeal is a symbol for Babylon, although I hardly would suggest that any islands floated over Iraq at any point in history. Also, understanding that you lack ironclad evidence, what suggests to you that Dreamstone may be a thing of this world?

The reason I see the absence of any mention of Christ as being evidence of his absence is that Christianity has had a huge impact on our world. Most places in the Western world (and many places that aren't) you can't walk 100 feet without feeling the influence of Christianity. Ask anyone, regardless of their religion and beliefs, who Jesus was. You'll get the same answer from 99% of them. In fact, some won't even wait for you to ask, they'll come up and ask you. Certainly nuns and others who devote their lives to those teachings think in those terms, and would respond to many questions using Christian thinking (by which I mean thinking derived from Christian teachings) I would expect that kind of response from devotees of any faith in any world. Yet there is not one single mention of any messianic figure, of any empire between Zeal and Guardia, and certainly no crucifixtion of the one by the other. The only mentions of deities are Lavos (who may as well be a god), the Entity (which for all intents and purposes is a god) and "God" specifically, which very well have meant the Entity. You'd think someone would have mentioned Jesus. That is why I find the absence evidence for nonexistence.

As for Miguel's Latin, remember that language did not devlop in the same way in the Chrono world as it did in hours. Neither English nor Japanese was spoken by the dinosaurs. Words that we would find to be in a foreign language needn't be in the Chrono world, as the languages clearly did not devlop in the same way.

A thought...the Epoch (and gates) are said to move those that travel through them through time, but not space; they arrive at the same where, a different when. The kindom of Guardia is founded in the year Zero. At this time, there would have been no Christianity, even if there was a Christ, so how could it be a Christian kingdom? If it was not founded as such, surely the conversion of an entire kingdom would have been a historic event, mention at least once; no doubt there would be celebrations honoring the conversion.


Quote from: Guardian of Ages
I will only say this: the dreamstone is with Ayla pre-Lavos, thus is with surity of this world. The explanation for the Christianity of Guardia may be found in the Work in Progress under my thread "Feigned history" as the third article. Sufficed to say I have worked out a way that places the founding of a Christian Guardia at 40AD during the reign of the emperor Caligula, and yet does not conflict with any CT facts so far as I can tell. I have based my theory on certain findings, and it is no less valid than any of the other numerous theories that have sprung up before on this site. There is nothing to truly disprove it, as the Latin must be Latin when Miguel speaks it. I understand that the language of that world is perhaps not English (even as Tolkien's "common tongue" is not, and "Hobbit" is just an author's word for "Kuduk"); yet if that were not Latin, it too would be translated, or else left in original form as were the words of Magus' spell in his fortress. Also it is unadvisable to refute something based on insufficient supporting evidence: ie. you cannot claim Guardia is not Christian because they do not mention Christ. That is not a scientific method. If you were to speak to me on the street, I would not mention Christianity in all liklihood, but I would be no less a Christian. I have written these same things for a third time now (though in briefer form); I am dead tired of writing them.


Ybrik Metaknight here entered the argument.

Quote from: Ybrik Metaknight
Of course all those things like B.C. and A.D., Chronopolis, European-like kingdoms (i.e. Guardia), Angelus Errare, all these things can be around with names and apparent visual significance and whatever else without those cultures existing. And of course B.C. and A.D. can mean something entirely different, and Angelus Errare might be, hell, who knows, Zealian. These things are used so that the player can be familiar with objects, terms, people or institutions in the game.

Take Final Fantasy, for example. Would you also have us believe that the Gilgamesh we fight repeatedly in Final Fantasy V is THE Mesopotamian hero? Or that the Excalibur found in damn near every Final Fantasy, in some form or another, is literally King Arthur's legendary sword, the scimitar lobbed at him by some watery tart (sorry, really couldn't resist the Monty Python reference there)? Or that Shiva, is the Hindu god of destruction rather than the mistress of ice? Or that Odin is the father of Thor, who is rarely even referenced in the series? Or that the sword Ragnarok (or the space/air ship in FFVIII) is the Norse war at the end of the world? I think I'll stop now, although there are many, many more examples.

Of course not. These things are put in the games by the developers to evoke a sense of familiarity within the player.

Yes, I agree that Chrono Trigger is supposed to be much more like our own world than any Final Fantasy (one might call FFVII an exception to this; I wouldn't, but some would). But it is definitely not the same world as our own. Therefore, all these things that are obvious references to cultures in our world are merely that: References. They are, most likely, not intended to be direct evidence of the existence of those cultures in the Chrono universe.

There is not enough specific evidence to conclude that the Chrono universe is a direct parallel to our own, as if it was a variant where Lavos landed in our world. You are making an extreme leap in logic, a lot of speculation.

You want some specific refutation? A Masamune is a type of katana. Yet the Chrono series's Masamune is very clearly a broadsword. That makes no sense by your logic (hell, I think it makes no sense anyway, and yet there it is all the same). And Melchior, Gaspar and Balthasar? They're only named that in the English version of the game. Masato Kato, who created it, comments:

Quote from: Masato Kato

I wasn't the main story writer for Xenogears, so I can't say much on it, but as for Chrono Trigger, I didn't especially think of the Bible when I was writing the story. "Three wisemen who carry the same names as the Biblical wisemen...?" Oh, I see... So, that's how they were named in the English version? In the original Japanese version, the ancient sages were named GASSHU, HASSHU, and BOSSHU. Regarding the other things you pointed out, I didn't consciously have anything in mind, biblical or otherwise, when I wrote the story.


Hey, look at that, one of the primary creators of our favorite video game universe (or at least one of them) directly refutes an intention of the existence of Christianity. I know you said we shouldn't bring in intent, but I don't care. And yes, I know that he didn't say he wrote the scenario with the intention of Christianity NOT existing, but there just isn't enough evidence to support the existence of Christ in Crono's world as a fact.

Quote from: Guardian of Ages
Also it is unadvisable to refute something based on insufficient supporting evidence: ie. you cannot claim Guardia is not Christian because they do not mention Christ. That is not a scientific method.


Nor is it a scientific method to insist a theory is a fact with as little evidence as is present. The only evidence we have supporting the existence of Christianity in the Chrono universe is B.C./A.D., the Cathedrals and nuns and such, the parallels to our own history that I DO agree are there (albeit not in as literal a sense as you suggest), and the basing of Guardia on European nations. No explicit proof.

Your idea is a theory with minimal support at best. You at least MUST respect that others' theories might be right. If you can't do that, you're just being as stubborn and simple-minded as people on many, many other forums out there. And I have reason to believe, based on many of your previous posts, that you're smarter than that, and at least occasionally a little more open-minded.

If it is not your intention to posit your theory as the only viable theory, I apologize, for that is how it appears to me. Perhaps you should try supporting it a little less vehemently, maybe write your posts in a manner that show that you're a little more open to others' ideas.


Quote from: Guardian of Ages
Firstly, contrary to the foolish way in which I presented it, it seems, I hardly think mine to be the only theory, nor even the best (the best would be that which the designers would favor, and certainly is not mine). I merely thought myself to be in a state of defence regarding it, so was attempting to show that it has no true flaws as far as the facts are concerned. Also, I rehashed a lot of what I have said, further proving (I assure you) the validity of the Latin factor (minor though this might truly be). I replied to each of your points, saying that I am indeed thinking far outside the box, for my theory is different than 99% of ideas; mine truly is outside the box. Also I brought up that even as you say the names give familiarity, so too does the real world history, for in such detail the Chrono universe is decidedly lacking. I felt that a real history would add a familiar, and therefore more touching, element to the Chrono universe. It is a literary choice. But more on that some other time, maybe.
Lastly I had taken issue with my using of a shaky theory, pointing out that the evolution theory taken as near fact nowadays (in opposition to the scientific creed that denies true fact), is very shaky itself (on a scientific, certainly not religious, ground). I am loath to repeat it all, especially as it is somewhat of a tangent to this discussion. But I assure you there is sufficient evidence to counter it, and yet it is still heartily taken as theory. Thus my own theory, though it may seem shaky, is not truly unscientific, or at least not if you consider evolution to be scientific (I have no desire to start an argument based on this; I assure you it is on scientific grounds that I say this. Please take it on this generic basis, for I have little will right now to engage in a debate regarding the validity of evolution. It is foreign to this discussion anyway.)
Finally, I must say that I do not have any desire to continue this further. I am stubborn in my own theory only so far as it affects my writing, and it was from that that this was initially sprung. Once again, I maintain that it is a viable theory, though I am sure that it is undoubtedly not the best or most accurate as far as the scientific scope of these discussions go. Thus, I bow out now, having said my words and opinions to a full

ZeaLitY

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Real World Influences
« Reply #1 on: May 30, 2004, 06:03:08 pm »
Got some up. I'll add the rest later, including my encyclopedia weapon name origins.

Daniel Krispin

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Real World Influences
« Reply #2 on: June 01, 2004, 09:41:38 pm »
Wow, that's all pretty impressive. Most everything is on there. Only a few things like "Medina" and such are yet missing.
But I have two comments.
The first is a question regarding the Lavos entry. You mention a connection to a Babylonian deity called Cthulhu. Are you fully sure that is a Babylonian myth? Because the name itself doesn't strike me as belonging to the Babylonian pantheon (like Ishtar, Enki, Enlil, and the such), and neither have I ever heard of of such a god in their religion (though I have heard of Cthulhu...I'm just unsure whether this is in Babylonian or not). Just to be sure I ran a reference in the Encylopedia Mythica, and I couldn't find Cthulhu there, either. What makes me uncertain also is that I do not think the Babylonians had the concept of an apocalypse in their mythology. The old gods, lead by Tiamat the dragon-like godess of the underground seas and her general Kingu was deposed by the younger god Marduk who takes the Tablets of Destiny (who later becomes known by the name of Bel, which means "lord", and is identical to Baal; Baal was a very common title in the ancient world, I think). Thereafter humanity was created as a slave race out of mud and the blood of Kingu; the lot of humanity is grim and never ending, and I have never heard mention of an apocalypse. Wait, strike that. My dad just told me there's a 3600 year cycle in their religion, with it ending each time in an apocalypse. But he also said that he had never heard tell of a god named Cthulhu in their myth, and that it doesn't quite sound Babylonian. Just a suggestion to double check that; I might well be wrong, after all. (Further note: I have consulted my book of mythology at home, as well as the Oxford reference dictionary and a full encylopedia, and found, as of yet, no reference to Cthulu, or Ktulu, which I believe would be an alternate spelling. The name and thing exists in some form; I know of it from the Metallica song "The call of Ktulu"...but beyond that, what or who it is has still eluded me.)
Secondly, a comment on something I know far better, and that is on the reference to Mithril. In Elvish the root "mith" signifies "grey" and comes up innumerable times (Mithrandir, another name for Gandalf, is "Grey wanderer"; Mithlond are the grey havens). The second part, "ril", means "gleam", I believe. This also appears in other names, the most notable being "Narsil". Anyway, Mithril thus means "Grey gleam". Also, unless it is either an inconsitency in his story, or a poetic licence that Bilbo takes, Mithril was discovered even in the First Age, and mined by the Elves of the West. In his poem of Earendil at Rivendell Bilbo says that the Elves the Elves used Mithril in the construction of the heavenly ship in which Earendil bears the Silmaril he has in his keeping. Therefore it must in some form exist in the Western lands of Valinor, and perhaps even Tol Eressea. This is not unplausable, because in reference to the animals it says that every type of creature, save those foul ones of the throne of Morgoth, to have ever lived in the world (and even some never seen in Middle-Earth), dwell yet in the West. This is, I would think, because of Yavanna, the Vala who loves the animals. Her husband, the Vala Aule, has a love for the things of the earth, of stone and metal (and it was through his power that the lands of Arda, the mountains and metals and such, were shaped). So it is not unlikely that through his will Mithril would exist in the West as well as in the East.
Hmmm...Medina is the only thing I can think of at the moment that is missing. I'll put it down here:

=Medina

One of the holy cities to the religion of Islam, it lies (I believe), in modern day Iraq.

Oh, here's another that might be considered a real word reference in CC:

=Nikki's song in the forest "Sweet sister of mine"

Certainly an allusion to the Guns 'n' Roses song "Sweet child 'o mine"

And here's another I thought of, though only in name (the character bears no resemblance to his namesake)

=Cyrus

A Persian king, I believe, that reigned some years after the fall of Babylon, if I'm not mistaken (though I could be).

Damn, I'm thinking of more all the time; yet another:

=The Tower of Geddon

Geddon taken from the name "Armageddon". Armageddon itself is often, mistakenly, taken as the name of a day or a battle; it is, in actuallity, a real field of battle. As it says in Revalations "they gathered at the place called Armageddon". It is thought that this stands for Har Megiddo, or "the mountain of Megiddo". The plains of Megiddo fall at a very strategic point, and throughout history many battles have been fought there.

Wait...another is coming to me! (No joke; this is happenning as I write!)

=Nagette

I am somewhat unsure regarding the actual name of the thing this refers to, but it is very similar to Nagette. What are are the carvings of snake like creatures that adorn the temple of Ankor Wat (I am unsure of this spelling), and I believe that is somewhere in Cambodia. Someone check this out for me. I just, by chance, saw this in a book the other day.

Well, that's all I can think of for now.

ZeaLitY

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« Reply #3 on: June 02, 2004, 01:12:21 am »
I can't find anything for it either, and dictionary.com wants me to pay to access it.

In the words of Norman of Big O, "those sons of bitches!"

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« Reply #4 on: June 02, 2004, 01:16:16 am »
Well, I'm sure it's something or other. By the way, I thought of some things that I don't think were on the list. I put them in my last post. I'll see what I can find regarding this Cthulhu.
(Edit)
Aha! Success! Eueka! And all that...
Okay, I found it. Cthulu is not Babylonian myth, nor is it any true world myth at all. I looked it up on Google, and what I found was this. It is actually part of the creation of a turn of the century horror author called Lovecraft. Cthulu is some sort of old "god" that sleeps at the bottom of the sea, and is a weird demonic entity; for all account he really seems similar to Lavos, and I can see why the connection was made. Here is the site where I found it (some random free encylopedia):
http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/Cthulhu%20Mythos
Come to think of it, I think I did happen to see a fanfic once where Lavos was referred to as one of the "Ancient Ones"; I just glanced at the synopsis and thought nothing of it, but now thinking back I think that that fanfic might have been crossing over Chrono Trigger with Lovecraft's mythos of old and evil demons and gods, postulating that Lavos was another one of these. Maybe the confusion over this identity of Lavos arose from there?
Actually, I cannot think of any true myth connection between Lavos and myth. The closest Babylon and those people had would have been the goddess Tiamat; a godess of chaos and disorder, and of the great sea (which the Babylonians would have feared), there is almost no resemblence. For the Greeks, the closest might have been Typhon the Terrible, last of the Titans, for he was imprisioned under mount Etna. But he holds no more fear or power on the earth after being defeated by Zeus, so any comparisons between him and Lavos end there. Norse, nothing (unless you stretch your imagination and think of Lavos as a demon of fire; then he might be said to be, in that aspect, similar to Surtur, which is what I call him. It is a shaky allusion at best, and the only thing that might point to such a thing is that his name means "Great Fire", symbolizing his fiery aspect). Continuing...the Egyptians have nothing like it either. There really is nothing I can think of in any myth that has an ancient evil devouring the world, residing near the heart of the earth.
Honestly, the closest thing that I always connect Lavos with is from Tolkien's mythology, and that is Sauron. This is perhaps because Zeal seems very much like to Numenor. In Numenor the people are at first blessed and happy, and far mightier than any other peoples. But in time they tire of the lives granted to them, and begin to wish for immortality. The brink comes when, in despair, the Elven King Gil-Galad calls to Numenor for aid, for back in Middle-Earth (Numenor being in the middle of the sea) Sauron has built a massive army, and prepares to take the whole land. Numenor come to the aid of the Elves, and so great is their power that Sauron is deserted by his armies. Then it is that the Numenoreans make their fatal mistake: they take Sauron back to Numenor as a prisoner. But Sauron is a cunning being (for he had already deceived the Elves, whereby he forged the One Ring), and in time becomes the advisor to the King. He enflames the desire for immortality in the King's heart, and darkens the hearts of all the people. They turn utterly evil, save for a faithful remnant that is persecuted. Sauron says that if the Numenoreans were to take the Western land of Valinor, where the Powers reside, then should they gain immortality (a lie, of course). Yet the King prepares his fleets, so great that they darken the setting sun, and sails to the West. The Valar are not happy, and calling upon Eru, the One, they lay down their governship of Arda (the Earth), and Eru splits the world, turning it into a sphere (where before it had been flat). Thus the West is lost from the real world. But Numenor, caught in the middle of the fissure, is destroyed. Only the faithful survive, Elendil and his sons Isildur and Anarion, and they land with their ships in Middle-Earth. But never again would they have the glory that was Numenor of old, which, by the way, the Elves call Atalante, the Downfallen. To me, this has always seemed similar to the way that Lavos poisons the mind of queen Zeal, sending her on a foolish quest for immortality that ends in the ruin of the whole land. And, of course, both tales are based on the Atlantis myth. It is from this that I draw my inference that Lavos is a Sauron-like Dark Lord. (Note on the Atlantis myth: it was written down by Plato, who heard it from Egyptian priests. Apparently, 10,000 years before, a number that is likely mistranslated or wrongly put down, the Egyptians were on the verge of being invaded by the Atlanteans. Their Greek allies deserted them, save the Atheneans, and so the Egyptians felt a sort of thanks to them, even though defence was not neccessary; before any invasion could commence, the fabled destruction of Atlantis occured. It actually leads one to wonder if it did not actually exist. Some say that the island of Thera in the Mediterranean was Atlantis, and if 10,000 were instead 1,000, this would not be unlikely. Had there been an empire based on Thera, an invasion of Egypt would not have been hard. Also the Greeks would have been nearby in the sphere of interest, so an alliance with Egypt would not have been unlikely)
A final thing...this online encyclopedia where I found this is nothing short of amazing. And I mean amazing. It is totally unlike any encyclopedia I have EVER seen. I typed in "Anglachel"...that is the sword of Turin in the Silmarillion. There was an entry for it. There was an entry for Fingolfin, for Caranthir...for near to everything in the Silmarillion. I've never, ever, seen a general encyclopedia that treats the Silmarillion like that. And it's a general encyclopedia. It has everything else too, in detail. You know what else it had? It had Chrono Trigger! Type it in, and you'll find there's an entry for it. Absolutely amazing.
...
Damn. I just looked more closely at the Chrono Trigger entry. Where did these guys get their information from? It says that originally there were supposed to be 9 playable characters, with Schala, sharing double and triple techs with Magus, being 8th, and Toma perhaps being 9th. I've never heard that before...

Chrono'99

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« Reply #5 on: June 02, 2004, 08:47:11 am »
Nagas are a kind of half-human half-serpent people in Indian mythology, although I think it just means "snake" sometimes. Medina is located in Saudi Arabia, it is the city of "the Prophet".

And Cthulhu is also a boss in the game Quake, by the way... but they obviously just took the idea from Lovecraft.

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« Reply #6 on: June 02, 2004, 06:04:07 pm »
Quote from: ZeaLitY
a) Gaia sends the Giants (who are actually giant reptiles) to defeat Zeus.
b) The Entity sends the Dragonians to defeat FATE.
a) Their chief Python is sealed in the Tartarus.
=Belthasar

Babylonian name given to Daniel in the Old Testament of the Bible.

Belteshazzar is a Babylonian name meaning "Beltis protect the king." Beltis is a form of Bel (AKA Baal), who was the most clever deity and sage of the gods.


Alright...I'm a little uncertain regarding this thing about the Giants being reptiles. I am not unversed in knowledge of Greek mythology, and I have never heard it. I speculate it is a regional thing, even as Zeus is sometimes spoken of as having Hera as a wife, but in other regions Metis or Leto. Thus there might be some region that saw the Giants as reptiles, but I do not think it was a widespread belief.
Secondly, I am also uncertain regarding the Python being one of the Giants. The Python is a different thing in Greek myth. I think it was actually a beast that haunted the slopes of Mount Parnassus. Apollo, the sun god, slew it, and thus a temple was raised there for him. This, then, became the famed Oracle of Delphi, unless I'm mistaken. Thus the Python was not one of the giants. Again, I am sure that the Giants were all portrayed as giant men with many hands and arms; giant lizards calls to mind dragons, and I have yet to read a Greek myth that concerns a dragon.
Finally, in regards to Bel (aka Baal)... it is a very generic title, actually. There was no one god "Bel", as such. The name means "lord". Thus even the Isralites would have called their god "Bel"; the Babylonians, after having 50 names for their top god Marduk, finally settled to simply calling him "Bel". Baalzebub, means "lord of the flies", for example.
Oh, a last though. Somewhere there the meaning of the name Mishael (damn, I can't remember the exact spelling) is given as "who is as God"...more specifically that is in the form of a question. It is "Who is what God is?".
(Oh, a funny little note that one of the entries brought to mind, the one with the latin root "lux". You know what else has that root? Lucifer. The name means "bringer of light", I think...of all the irony.)

Chrono'99

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« Reply #7 on: June 03, 2004, 01:52:50 am »
hm I was thinking about Typhon, but made a typo I guess... The giant Typhon had many serpentine features, although he had parts of a lot of animals actually (wings, lion features,...). I'm trying to search on the web to check how Giants looked like, but each one indeed has many personal particularities... I read somewhere they were sometimes portrayed with serpentine tails or scales though, but I can't seem to remember where, and as you said it could be a particular regional discrepancy.

The only stuff I found so far is here, "the Giants were serpent-footed..." (they are quite human on the pic on the same page though :/ )

As for Zeus' wife, I thought he just had different wife in his life, Hera being his last one (he still had many childs with human though...)

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« Reply #8 on: June 03, 2004, 04:17:11 pm »
Quote from: Chrono'99

As for Zeus' wife, I thought he just had different wife in his life, Hera being his last one (he still had many childs with human though...)

Yes, that's how it's usually done, though if I'm not mistaken this is actually the work of mythologists who seek to bring some order and continuity to the scattered myths. There are so many different accounts and versions of the Greek myths, I think it becomes hard to decide which one to use; in the case of Zeus' wives, they just use them all, albeit in successive order. Myths were quite regional, and the worship and elevation of a certain god was dependent on which area you happened to be in. When Troy was besieged, they had Aphrodite and Apollo on their side. Those are both powerful Olympians. However, no less mighty were those who in myth sided with the Greeks: Posidon, Hera, and the ever-wise Athene. You can imagine that in that time the Greeks would have placed in heirarchy their supposed protectors above those of Troy, whereas those of Troy would have placed revered Apollo highly. It's all a matter of which locale the myths were written in. Again this might be seen in the glorification of Athene by those of Athens; their very city bears the name of that godess. And even as certain Olympians were placed in different orders of heirarchy in different regions, so too would the myths surrounding them have varied. Even the legendary aspects of heroes became clouded in the pride of the citizens of the various city states. In his original work, Homer has Menelaus being a very noble and aristocratic man, skilled in war and apparently handsom. However, when you see them movie, he seems brutish. This is not fully an invention of the filmmakers, either. I have read that at later times this development of the character occured in certain plays, especially those written in Athens. For Menelaus was the king of Sparta, and at the time of around 600BC or so, Athens and Sparta were on the verge of, and in, war. This war was largely idealogical, not unlike the semi war between the USSR and the United States during the past century. Athens was the opitome of democracy, whereas the Spartans were a fully militaristic state: at an early age, ever male child was drafted into the army until, I think, 50. Their entire population of free men was, thus, an army always trained for war. They were a society of warriors. The famed stand of the few hundred Greeks agains hundreds of thousands of Persians at the Gates of Fire was a Spartan thing: fight to the last. Yet this militarism was their downfall; their slaves outnumbered them greatly, and the men of Sparta were so focused on their warlike pursuits that their population dwindled. Anyway, I'm digressing from the point. In regards to Athens and Sparta and the depiction of Menelaus, the Athenians would certainly not see a Spartan king as a noble man.

ZeaLitY

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« Reply #9 on: June 04, 2004, 03:40:47 pm »
Alright, I've updated the frame Article with the new progress. Especially enhanced is the Lavos entry. I haven't included the Chrono Theogenia discussion yet, as I'm not sure if a conclusion has been reached on the Giants. Also, I haven't included information on Atlantis or Medina as those will respectively go in Historical Parallels and Religion. On a sidenote, it was neat to find that 65,000,000 B.C. is proposed by many as the date of the Cretaceous mass extinction which wiped out the dinosaurs and about 76% of other life on earth.

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« Reply #10 on: July 04, 2004, 01:07:48 am »
About the Tesseract:

 

  Tesseract  

      In geometry , the tesseract or hypercube is a regular polychoron,with eight cubical   cells.
      It can be thought of as an n-dimensional analogue of the cube  . Roughly speaking the 4-d hypercube is to the cube as the cube is to the square.
     In a square, each vertex has two perpendicular edges incident to it, while a cube has three. A tesseract has four. Canonical coordinates for the vertices of a tesseract centered at the origin are (±1, ±1, ±1, ±1), while the interior of the same consists of all points (x0, x1, x2, x3) with -1 < xi < 1.

      A tesseract is bound by eight hyperplanes  , each of which intersects it to form a cube. Two cubes, and so three squares, intersect at each edge. There are three cubes meeting at every vertex, the vertex polyhedron of which is a regular tetrahedron. Thus the tesseract is given Schläfli symbol  {4,3,3}. All in all, it consists of 8 cubes, 24 squares, 32 edges, and 16 vertices. The square, cube, and tesseract are all examples of measure polytopes in their respective dimensions.


Hypercubes in fiction
 
      Robert Heinlein mentioned hypercubes in at least two of his science-fiction stories. ...And He Built a Crooked House described a house built as a net (i.e. an unfolding of the cells into three-dimensional space) of a  tesseract. It collapsed, becoming a real hyperdimensional tesseract.
Glory Road (1963)  included the foldbox, a hyperdimensional packing case that was bigger inside than outside. In addition, a reference can be found in The Number of the Beast  (1980) wherein the Burroughs     continua device uses the hypercube principle to travel interdimensional    universes to the incredible number of the beast.
A hypercube is also used as the main deus ex machina   of Robert J. Sawyer

's book Factoring Humanity.
The tesseract is mentioned in the children's fantasy novel A Wrinkle In Time  , by Madeleine L'Engle  , as a way of introducing the concept of higher dimensions, but the treatment is extremely vague. In that book she uses the tesseract as a doorway, which you can pass through and emerge far away from the starting point, as if the two distant points were brought together at one intersection (at the tesseract doorway) by the folding of space, enabling near-instantaneous transportation.

In Alex Garland's 1998 novel "The Tesseract", the author uses the term to mean the three-dimensional net of the four-dimensional hypercube rather than the hypercube itself. It is a metaphor for the characters' inability to understand the causes behind the events which shape their lives: they can only visualize the superficial world they inhabit.

 

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« Reply #11 on: July 05, 2004, 06:30:54 pm »
About the titles of the Gurus.  The three Guru's titles were supposed to be a joke by Sqaure, much like Ozzie, Flea and Slash were a little joke too.  You see, the Gure of Life makes weapons, the Guru of Time goes to a place where time either doesn't exist or has no meaning, and the Guru of Reason goes crazy.  Oh, the Irony.

ZeaLitY

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« Reply #12 on: July 09, 2004, 08:40:23 pm »
Chrono'99: About the 3 gurus giving Chrono's party 3 gifts like the Mages, I always though these 3 gifts were more in relation with the japanese mythology :
the japanese Emperor got 3 gifts from the gods :
- a sword taken from a devil's body
- a magical jewel (time egg?)
- a mirror with 8 faces (ok there is only 7 time periods in CT but...)

YbrikMetaknight

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« Reply #13 on: July 10, 2004, 05:57:32 pm »
Shit.  Looks like I really dropped the ball on this one.  And pretty much everything else Chrono-related, since I've been too busy for the past few weeks to devote much time to anything.  However, this week, I should have the perfect opportunities to write my comparison between Chrono history and our history, for this article.

GreenGannon

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« Reply #14 on: September 25, 2004, 02:22:30 am »
I'm not sure if its been mentioned, but ancient Christian tradition says that the names of the three wise men who gave gifts of Gold, Frankinense*, and Myrrh* to Baby Jesus, were named Melchir, Gaspar, and Balthasar.



*Terrible spelling