Author Topic: Why analyze so deeply?  (Read 6868 times)

ZeaLitY

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Why analyze so deeply?
« Reply #15 on: March 03, 2004, 09:43:09 pm »

Daniel Krispin

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Why analyze so deeply?
« Reply #16 on: March 03, 2004, 10:07:47 pm »
Well, it's traditionalist, to be sure. But I do not see any problem whatsoever in clinging fast to my beliefs. As I said, should not everyone cling to their belief to the exclusion of all others? To be pluralist is merely to be a fence rider and not know where you stand. Not to say that you cannot see other sides, or understand other things; I respect other religions very much. The devotion that is shown by people of other faiths is admirable, though I would say it is misguided. In the same way I would not be offended if a Muslum were to tell me I'm damned for my beliefs. In a sense I would be more upset if they did not.

Radical_Dreamer

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« Reply #17 on: March 03, 2004, 11:25:37 pm »
What you believe is less important than how strongly you believe it, huh?

I agree with that sentiment, probably in a different sense.

If it works for you, that's fine, just don't use it as an excuse to hurt others. Well, that's my morality at least, not absolute, but I believe in it.  :)

Daniel Krispin

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« Reply #18 on: March 04, 2004, 12:25:17 am »
Well, not quite. What you believe does, I would say, outweigh how strongly you believe it. I merely mean to say that if you truly believe it as your faith, it should stand at the basis of your being and not be swayed by anything. An impossible feat, I know (for who does not doubt?), but even so is what is ideal. What I meant in saying that I respect others who cling to their faith is that, while I hold their beliefs to be wrong, they show great strength in clinging to it. I respect them as dedicated humans.

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Why analyze so deeply?
« Reply #19 on: March 04, 2004, 06:26:53 am »
Quote
Who has not sinned even once?


What about those born dead babies? What sin have they committed? Especially one so great as to die before they experience life?

Otherwise...I guess that part where you speak about beliefs and ideas is where we make a definate split in thought. I think that ideas are much better than beliefs. People die because of beliefs. Wars are faught over beliefs. If you only have ideas, what you do is you just change them as new information is recieved. Nothing is solid of course, as you cannot know everything, but I think it is better that way. The world would be a better place w/less belief and more idea.

^^^^^^^
Parts inspired by the movie Dogma! Wowzers! Go Kevin Smith!

Daniel Krispin

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« Reply #20 on: March 04, 2004, 08:38:05 pm »
What sin have babies committed? Being born human. To be born human is to be born sinful. It is what is called original sin; it is why Christans (at least some denominations) practice Baptism. As for those who die before even being Baptised...we must trust to the mercy of God. After all, I am sure God knows all things that would or might have been.

Radical_Dreamer

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Why analyze so deeply?
« Reply #21 on: March 04, 2004, 11:54:58 pm »
Original sin: What an outright disgusting concept. Everything about it screams against everything that is good.

I suppose that I'm an extra bad sinner, being left handed? A choice I didn't make, I suppose I'm still responsible for it? (Never mind I prefer things this way, but it's a matter of principle)

Trusting the mercy of a being who hold everyone responsible for a choice made millenia ago entirely different beings? Good place to put your faith.

Daniel Krispin

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« Reply #22 on: March 05, 2004, 02:17:52 am »
It is the only place to put your faith. What do you trust in, the strength of humanity? That has been shown time and again to be ashes. Were we not for fourty years in the last century on the brink of destroying ourselves with nuclear war.
And I understand that original sin seems very repulsive. It is hard to admit oneself to be so corrupt from the beginning that redemption is beyond your means. But what, really, is wrong with the concept of original sin? It merely admits that human nature, from it's most basic form, is flawed. And do we not see this in society as it is, time and again? Whatever good there may be is outweighed by the most basic of human flaws that never go away: greed, lust, anger...they are never gone. We have found no way of erasing this from ourselves. Pardon me if I cannot give a more convincing argument on the matter; I could ask my father who has a far better understanding of the theology and philosophy standing behind it, but I cannot at this moment. The thing is, it is not a choice you made; but you carry in you the very same flaw, even from birth, that caused this. Unbridled ambition and such things, they are the sins that caused the fall, and through that first sin we too are afflicted with it. We are living as dead, damned to hell for eternity in the eyes of God. Original sin does not scream against good; rather, what makes it so repulsive seeming is that it is the accusing finger of the law. As bad as the Devil is our own sinful nature, and is even as subtle. It works in such a way that our hearts deplore the ways of God, and rather follow the paths of our own hearts. So it seems that Original Sin is an antipode to good, but the concept is only at odds with what our flawed nature tells us is good. For original sin tells us that we cannot depend on our own strength; and our nature despises that. We like to think of ourselves as the masters of our own destiny. But when disaster strikes, then it becomes apparent: all our strength does not avail us in death. But neither take from this that God is so harsh that He is beyond mercy; remember the story of Jesus. It is the counterweight to the law...for the law condemns, and the gospel sets free.
Well, this is not going in the way I had intended...again. I sound like some foolish evangalist, talking about things beyond my learning. I honestly do not wish to speak so much about theology on these forums; I realise that no words of mine could sway any other opinions, and so amount to no more than noise in the end. In other circumstances I would ardently continue with this, but I know that many of those on these forums do not hold to the same ideas I do, and to be overly vehement accomplishes nothing for the better. It is only that when such a challenge is put before me (like saying that Original Sin is a repulsive concept), my faith screams at me that something must be said to counter it, to not remain silent; what little I know of the theology of the matter must be brought forth, or else I will feel that I have not done as I should. Please do not judge me too harshly on this; my father is both a professor in this field, and a pastor. I take greatly after him.

Radical_Dreamer

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Why analyze so deeply?
« Reply #23 on: March 05, 2004, 05:06:39 pm »
I understand your desire to defend yourself, I worded my statement that way on purpose: I find the concept of Original Sin to be unforgivable.

I suppose I should give more details as to why.

I refuse to believe that anyone is responsible for the actions of anyone else. If I kill a man in cold blood, that is my sin, that blood is not on your hands. Original Sin says that all man kind partook in a sin that only two people partook in. That to me is horribly unjust.

Furthermore, I see it as an absoltuion of personal responsibility. Do I believe that I am the master of my own destiny? As I believe that I have free will, I cannot believe otherwise. Destiny, fate...words a coward uses instead of God. I have free will, I believe everyone does. Therefore, I am ultimately responsible for my actions. Only I am responsible for them, and I am responsible for only them. Without the belief in free will, and with the belief in fate where does that responsibility lie? Certainly not with me, how can what I do be considered a sin if I had no choice to do it? Furthermore, if what I am doing, I am doing because it is God's will (as I have no will of my own) how can what I am doing, no matter how vile, be a sin, for I am simply fulfilling God's purpose for me?

Is humanity a good place to place faith? Not particularly. But you mischaracterize some of our "sins."

Quote from: Leonardo Da Vinci

Lust is the cause of generation
Appetite is the support of life
Fear or timidity is the prolongation of life, and
Fraud the preservation of its instruments.


So, without a god or gods to believe in, and a species that is for the most part full of cretins, where do I place my faith? Only place left: In me. I will write my own destiny.

And I don't veiw you harshly on this, debate keeps the mind sharp. I could hardly be mad at you for helping me work out.

ZeaLitY

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Why analyze so deeply?
« Reply #24 on: March 05, 2004, 05:44:01 pm »
Quote from: Radical_Dreamer
Furthermore, I see it as an absoltuion of personal responsibility. Do I believe that I am the master of my own destiny? As I believe that I have free will, I cannot believe otherwise. Destiny, fate...words a coward uses instead of God.


Humanism! Yes, yes, pure and good!

We forge our own destinies.

Daniel Krispin

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« Reply #25 on: March 05, 2004, 07:56:27 pm »
I do not dispute free will. And yet there is an element of fate, as well. Let me ask you, if you make a choice, it is your, correct? You had free will, correct? But was this not fated to happen? Was it not your fate to make this choice, yours though it was? I think the idea of destiny does not mean that we cannot make our own choices (which we can indeed do; we certainly have free will), but, rather, that those choices are already predestined. I have noted before that both the religious and the atheists must believe in fate, and this is why. The religious believe in fate because they say that God knows all things, and therefore knows beforehand what choices we will make; this is fate. For the atheists who belive in science as their religion (and it is most certainly a religion), they too must believe in fate. For if you deny the existance of a soul, and we are but animals at the mercy of the choices of our mind...are not the workings of our mind dependent on the electrical signals? And are those not in turn influenced by the position of chemicals and such in the brain? This can be taken backward a thousand fold, and it could then be said that every action we do now is simply a result of the primordeal arrangement of atoms at the birth of the universe; all that ever was and shall be was set in that moment. So as an animal, and nothing more (which is what you must then profess to be), you are at the mercy of the universe, and have no true understanding, only instinct and survival. But enough of fate and predestination. Even within the Church predestination is a debated topic.
In regards to humanism and such, and the concept of Original Sin. You are thinking merely of sin in what you see and feel in your life and world. It is a deeper problem than this. It is the inherant flaw in all humanity, which does most certainly exist. If one were to take a child and put them into isolation at birth...would they grow to be perfect, thinking no evil? Would they then not know anger, or greed? No, they would. Why, then? Because of the inherently sinful human nature, and this human nature is the result of Original Sin. It taints our inborn souls, and drives us to evil. Moreover it is more insidious than this, as it tells us that the things of God are despicable, because they rely on strength other than our own. We are proud, far too proud, and wish nothing else to hold sway over our lives; and so we deny God. And all this feels very good in our hearts, because we think ourselves free of any domination of any sort. Yet this very feeling is that which betrays us; our own heart betrays us in this. Because the very thing which feels best is that which is worst. You may claim this to but theory, but think about this: how much do you really master your own destiny? Can you tell me that you will not die tomorrow in a car accident, or that you will not be suddenly afflicted by some disease? You cannot know. You can only look back, the future is a mystery. To try to be captain of your own destiny in such a manner is akin to captaining a ship through fog; you may be fortunate for a time, but what will you do when disaster strikes? What will you put your faith in on your deathbed when all your strength can no longer avail you, when all your knowledge is ashes?
The belief in the strength of humanity is also what has caused the worst atrocities the world has ever seen, I might add. Hitler, Stalin, Mussolini, some of the most dire leaders in history, upon whose collective hands are the blood of millions, were all people who did not believe in God but rather trusted in their own power; it too seemed good and mighty for a time. And yet it not only led to evil, but it did not last. They all found all too late that their power was worthless.


In reply to the quote you had, here is one from one of the masters of literature: "There are more things in heaven or earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophies" -Hamlet. (pardon me if I missed some of the wording; I wrote it down from memory)

Radical_Dreamer

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Why analyze so deeply?
« Reply #26 on: March 05, 2004, 08:59:16 pm »
You do not dispute free will, yet you say the decision is already made. If that is so, and I can't make a different choice, then my free will is an illusion, my life is meaningless, and I am completely without sin.

Your analogy of the ship in the fog is a good one. That being said, I'd still rather place my faith in my ship than in the fog.

The dictators you mention didn't have faith in humanity. For them to come to power, they had to work against human merit, the power they held, and their attrocities against mankind are all the result of exploiting human weakness at every step of the way. Totalitarians don't have faith in humanity, if they did, they'd be anarchists.

Empiric

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« Reply #27 on: March 06, 2004, 11:06:52 am »
Im going to step in, split a hair, and depart, because I love listening to these conversations rather than participating; cleans out the ears.  Besides, I prefer an intellectual discussion on the bible anyday compared to a boring sermon.  Thats why I go to a church who has a Theological Professor as a pastor (And I mean an active professor who goes and teaches classes afterwards.)  I like being taught, as opposed to screamed at that Im going to hell.  (Something I've gotten from Catholic pastors when I refuse to go to their sermons).  I find this a rather interesting note that sometimes an academic interest can indeed go hand in hand with a religious one.

The Hair:  Hitler

  Hitler was not a religious man, but he did Encourage it heavily.... albeit in a scary, cultist, paganistic sort of way (And I dont mean pagan as an insult.  It has now become an actual term for those religions as their names have faded into history.)
Hitler, to fuel his war machine and indeed to prove that his form of humanity was blessed, allowed Himler and others to search out for numerous religious artifacts (aka Indiana Jones but with far less success.)  Most of what they found was used to RELIGIOUSLY reinforce the strength of man.  The hair that Im splitting, I'm afraid, is that Hitler achieved a rather interesting balance of science and religion.  He used Religion to rally support for his science of life.

Thus, Hair split.
Keep going, I still have 2 years of earwax that Im trying to remove.

V_Translanka

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Why analyze so deeply?
« Reply #28 on: March 07, 2004, 09:36:06 am »
Okay, is it just me, or does this topic (at the very LEAST NOW) belong in the General Discussion forum???

Okie doke...Now, as for "our actions can be placed within our internal workings" bit. It's true that at the base of humanity are our animal instincts. Hunting & Gathering and all that rot. Our environments play a major role in what we feel and what we do.

BUT! They aren't the ONLY influences in our lives. CURRENT projections and situations are also taken into account. These things cannot be calculated, cannot be fated. There is always chaos. It is the workings of the world. After a certain point of information and variables, chaos is the result. And that is without fate.

Radical_Dreamer

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« Reply #29 on: March 07, 2004, 05:57:55 pm »
I was considering moving this thread to Gen. Disc. earlier. One more "Yea" and it's done.