Poll

If heaven exists, who deserves to go there?

The moral believers only
3 (27.3%)
The moral unbelievers only
1 (9.1%)
The moral and immoral believers only
2 (18.2%)
The moral believers and moral unbelievers only
5 (45.5%)

Total Members Voted: 10

Voting closed: April 12, 2006, 06:50:22 pm

Author Topic: A challenge to the religious  (Read 3843 times)

Leebot

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A challenge to the religious
« on: April 12, 2006, 06:50:22 pm »
Stumbled upon this web article today:
http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/richard_carrier/heaven.html

So, to the religious among you, how do you argue with that?

I'm going to heaven (if it exists) and you aren't! Nyeh!

Legend of the Past

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« Reply #1 on: April 12, 2006, 06:54:56 pm »
If people don't believe in God for an actual, good and valid reason, God should respect that, too. I also don't think Heaven has much to do with believeing in God: It has to do with what you are, what you've done and why you've done it.

Burning Zeppelin

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« Reply #2 on: April 12, 2006, 07:19:00 pm »
Your poll doesn't encompass much. For example, a very good unbeliever could go to heaven. The thing is, in my religion, its not like if you go to Hell, you stay there forever. HellFire is a purifying flame. If you have "an atoms weight of belief still in you" you will eventually go to Heaven. And if you never got Gods call, then you also don't go to Hell.

Hadriel

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« Reply #3 on: April 12, 2006, 07:42:32 pm »
First of all, it isn't possible to come up with an answer for this question unless the tenets of morality are firmly in divine hands and thus independent of human cognition or tendencies.  However, any morality designed by God must by definition also be in accordance with human moral thought, because of the Identity Principle; if God's actions are in any way observable, he must be an integral part of the universe, and thus any moral scheme developed through reason would not conflict with God's.

I believe that all who are moral at heart should, if it exists, go to heaven.  This opinion is borne more out of sympathy for lifeforms than anything else.  The question is deciding who's moral; I guess that's why God's supposed to be omniscient.

GrayLensman

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« Reply #4 on: April 12, 2006, 08:17:35 pm »
Quote
If heaven exists, who deserves to go there?


Everyone.

Burning Zeppelin

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« Reply #5 on: April 12, 2006, 08:22:35 pm »
Quote from: GrayLensman
Quote
If heaven exists, who deserves to go there?


Everyone.

What about those who spit on Gods word?

Legend of the Past

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« Reply #6 on: April 12, 2006, 08:27:27 pm »
Quote from: Burning Zeppelin
Quote from: GrayLensman
Quote
If heaven exists, who deserves to go there?


Everyone.

What about those who spit on Gods word?


If in their heart they hate themselves for doing so, and inside believe in God they should go to Heaven. If they really hate God, they should have a reason for it. If it's just the common 'I can't see him' excuse, heck, they can go to Hell for all I care.

Sentenal

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« Reply #7 on: April 12, 2006, 08:57:17 pm »
So only sincere nontheists can get to heaven, because God is evil, and a good person wouldn't worship an evil God?  While true, you shouldn't worship an evil God, in no way agree that God is evil, which is what this entire arguement hinges on in the end.  In addition, according to my religion, morality is only one of the nessisary things to get into heaven.

GrayLensman

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« Reply #8 on: April 12, 2006, 08:58:53 pm »
Quote from: Burning Zeppelin
What about those who spit on Gods word?


Is there really anything a person can do in this life to deserve infinite punishment?  It's all or nothing.

Burning Zeppelin

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« Reply #9 on: April 12, 2006, 09:14:11 pm »
But heres the thing. In a monotheistic religion, which I'm sure the article was using, God can not be evil. The whole idea is that good is based on God. God is pretty much beyond good and evil. God gave us the law for us to live by. Not himself. This does not make him a hypocrite, it is just we have no right to judge God. God is beyond us. He is too grand for us. We have no right. Plus, I don't believe in the Job story...so...yeah.

Durakken

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« Reply #10 on: April 12, 2006, 10:03:03 pm »
God is not good or evil and is beyond that because according to belief God is perfect. If God is prfect then God must know and understands the necesity of evil. For example if you did not EVER die, would you respect and love life? Not a chance. if you never got sick, would you know what it felt like to be healthy. If you never knew hatred could you know love? A God that is perfect must understand this and be the balance between them and therefor there is no such thing as a "good" or "evil" in the conventional sense, but rather the raising of the conscious mind of the common individuals.

In other words...Good and evil is not defined by morals but rather the advancement of human consciousness. So Where you may see WW2 as being evil, it was truly a good event as it raised or level of thinking...

Burning Zeppelin

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« Reply #11 on: April 12, 2006, 10:10:33 pm »
What the hell are you going on about?
God is not a human, therefore it is beyond out thought as to how God thinks.
Everything can be seen from different perspectives, like good and evil. But if you believe in God, you believe there is only one Good and one Evil, that which God says.

Durakken

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« Reply #12 on: April 12, 2006, 10:47:00 pm »
God would think logicaly or as a child.

God knows more than us, but given what we know we can deduce a logical answer to the nature of God.

It also matters what you call god as a god is simply an entity that is above our natural ability or out technological ability to such a degree we think it's natural.

I'm not gonna go into it because using logic I can come to a few conclusions about "God". However, the God I am speaking about is a perfect God. A perfect God would neither be good nor evil and thus be simply motivated by logic or for amusement. Possably both. A logical God would see the need for moral evils in the world. A God out for amusement would want the evils in the world.

Good and Evil does not even come up in the bible for the most part during the old testament. Not only does it not come up but "Satan" is friendly with God and also serves the function of testing. Any logical being can see how stupid it is to call Satan evil or god good.

According to what is said Satan plans to win you over to his side so that he can eternally torture you for not listening to God. How does that make sense? it doesn't. Job and many of the figures in the bible had direct face to face contact with God, Satan, or Angels. If I had a face to face encounter with them I'd be pretty hard to shake in my beliefs as well. God as far as what can be said holds no ill will torwards Satan and depends on him for many things.

Lord J Esq

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« Reply #13 on: April 12, 2006, 11:06:26 pm »
Even assuming that "God X" and "God X's Heaven" are real, why is morality assumed to be the arbiter of who gets in and who doesn't? I think Hadriel's comments thus far have been the most interesting, raising as they do the question of what exactly "morality" is.

I'm sure everyone has their own idea. So that's my question to the audience: What is morality?

Durakken

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« Reply #14 on: April 12, 2006, 11:15:35 pm »
Morality is based on what the majority of people see as benificiary or negative to a culture. It is largely culture based and there are a few morals that are largely engrained into most cultures due to us all haveing a root culture, like we all have a root language that evolved differently as we spread and seperated.

When your questioning if something is moral or not you really have to ask is morality even real as most moral come from what is rewarded or punished and then wouldn't it be seen as greedy to be moral