Poll

Is the media's coverage of violence, death, destruction, and chaos in Iraq causing us to lose the war?

Yes.
1 (10%)
No.
9 (90%)

Total Members Voted: 10

Voting closed: March 27, 2006, 03:53:26 am

Author Topic: CBS Iraq War Journalist Lara Logan: Hero of the Day  (Read 2435 times)

Burning Zeppelin

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« Reply #30 on: March 29, 2006, 03:51:28 am »
Hmm...hearing from a certain "someone" who shall forever remain unnamed, for the fact that she doesn't belong to this forum and never will, though you may know her when she becomes a famous author, which she will, the Liberals are the anti-American, "people-that-teach-children-that-America-sucks", unpatriotic group. And yeah, she is Christian. But don't have it against her, she is a good person!

Radical_Dreamer

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« Reply #31 on: March 30, 2006, 02:43:24 am »
Quote from: Sentenal
Quote from: Radical_Dreamer
How do you define victory at this point?

At this point, I would say that victory would be the creation of a reasonably stable democratic government.  Stability is the problem right now.  Thats why getting the Iraqi security forces up and running to ensure stability is so important.


We can have that by the end of the year. It won't be pro-West, it will probably impose Sharia law, and, at best, maintain order between the ethnic groups, but it'll be stable.

Quote from: Burning Zeppelin
Hmm...hearing from a certain "someone" who shall forever remain unnamed, for the fact that she doesn't belong to this forum and never will, though you may know her when she becomes a famous author, which she will, the Liberals are the anti-American, "people-that-teach-children-that-America-sucks", unpatriotic group. And yeah, she is Christian. But don't have it against her, she is a good person!


Secrets of American politics: Both liberals and conservatives use increasingly harsh rhetoric. Both of them are, ultimately, looking out for their own interests. Neither of them care about America.

Secrets of Religion: Being a Christian neither precludes nor implies that a person is morally good. Goodness and religion are wholly seperate issues, despite what many religious people will tell you.

Burning Zeppelin

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« Reply #32 on: March 30, 2006, 03:26:10 am »
Quote from: Radical_Dreamer
Quote from: Sentenal
Quote from: Radical_Dreamer
How do you define victory at this point?

At this point, I would say that victory would be the creation of a reasonably stable democratic government.  Stability is the problem right now.  Thats why getting the Iraqi security forces up and running to ensure stability is so important.


We can have that by the end of the year. It won't be pro-West, it will probably impose Sharia law, and, at best, maintain order between the ethnic groups, but it'll be stable.

I doubt it will impose Sharia law. Unless Iran has something to do with it, which I doubt it will. It will most likely be "democracy." Unless of course Ayatollah Ali Sistani finds a schism and causes a revolution. Of course this won't help the sectarian violence, as being an Ayatollah, he will make Iran into a Shia State, not an Islamic one, which divides the people (wrong in Islam)

Quote

Quote from: Burning Zeppelin
Hmm...hearing from a certain "someone" who shall forever remain unnamed, for the fact that she doesn't belong to this forum and never will, though you may know her when she becomes a famous author, which she will, the Liberals are the anti-American, "people-that-teach-children-that-America-sucks", unpatriotic group. And yeah, she is Christian. But don't have it against her, she is a good person!


Secrets of American politics: Both liberals and conservatives use increasingly harsh rhetoric. Both of them are, ultimately, looking out for their own interests. Neither of them care about America.

Secrets of Religion: Being a Christian neither precludes nor implies that a person is morally good. Goodness and religion are wholly seperate issues, despite what many religious people will tell you.

I wasn't trying to imply that being a Christian automatically makes you a good person.

Maelstrom

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« Reply #33 on: March 30, 2006, 01:08:54 pm »
It's naive to expect, say, that you can destroy hundreds of thousands of terrorists without losing at least tens of thousands of your own troops.  We may have a great military and great technology, but *bodies* count for something, especially when our current enemy (insurgents) have the element of surprise to boot.  As large and developed as our country is, we can't just steamroll through one country after another, when the enemy within each country is scattered and hidden all over the place.  Wars like these entail real sacrifices, and as others have mentioned, Iraq was marketed as an easy feel-good story that had no hope of living up to those expectations, even if there were WMDs to be found (I saw that Daily Show interview, too, and I wouldn't doubt him; he's just too lovable).  In particular, we were not prepared for the struggle with preserving order after getting Saddam out.  Half-hearted efforts will just get your ass handed to you.

We absolutely had to go after Osama when 9/11 happened, but al Qaeda should have remained our focus until we achieved victory against them.  Going after terrorism is general, without international support, is like throwing rocks at a bee hive or hornets' nest.  We're not going to do any major damage, and we're just going to incite them towards more aggression, particularly towards us.

As weak as it may sound, sometimes you just have let some things play out.  It wasn't until just over 140 years ago that the United States got rid of slavery, and then around 40 years ago we got over rampant racial discrimination.  Women couldn't vote (nationwide) until 86 years ago and have been fighting for more rights since.  Even if we had the military capacity 150 years ago to get rid of today's Saddam, we would have been moral hypocrites to do it (we, enslavers of blacks and tyrants of indians).  Considering how long humanity has been around, it may not be the worst thing if some of these countries are only lagging 100 - 250 years behind us.  And they will feel a lot prouder when they overcome obstacles (largely) on their own.  Some will be disappointed that we aren't improving human life across the world as much then, but we would then gain a greater ability to improve life *here*, in term developing us better ambassadors of justice and democracy in the future (when we are less discriminatory and more sensitive to cultural).

I don't want to harp on the economic side of things too much, but if we don't adhere to fiscal responsibility (like through controlling the national debt), we may lose power to intervene in the rest of the world in the future.  As such, we can't spend so much money fighting marginally effective wars while simulatenously granting large (sometimes no-bid) contracts to rebuild these countries.  For a couple interpretations of how much debt we have, I give these graphs:

Inflation-adjusted debt (blue bar graph): http://www.brillig.com/debt_clock/faq.html
As percentage of GDP: http://zfacts.com/p/318.html

The first graph is adjusted for inflation, but it doesn't take into account whether the economy is growing enough to keep up (population growth affects total GDP as well).  Still, it's more useful than getting scared by the red graph (which doesn't adjust for inflation), and it gives us an accurate assessment of what *value* of debt we are talking about.

If you want to get an accurate interpretation of how *constraining* the national debt is (and how hard it would be to pay it off), look at the second one.  This one is complicated a bit by the strength of the economy, but considering we are judging our government on the strength of our economy (GDP) as well, it's really not so bad.  Obviously we have been through worse, but we are clearly heading in the wrong direction at the moment.  Furthermore, we risk taking a GDP hit when those baby boomers retire (fewer workers), so it would be wise to turn things around now, so we can afford to absorb that hit later.

Burning Zeppelin

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« Reply #34 on: March 30, 2006, 04:01:20 pm »
First off, It's almost time for school for me (damn the compulsory school system!) so I will make this short and snappy.
"We" aren't losing many causalties. We are just killing.
Secondly, a small tidbit of info, Iraq used to be the capital of the world. Just saying.

Sentenal

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« Reply #35 on: March 30, 2006, 04:48:26 pm »
Not to deminish the loses of the War, but the casualities we have suffered thus far are much lighter than we suffered in past wars.

Lord J Esq

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« Reply #36 on: March 30, 2006, 09:01:35 pm »
Quote from: Sentenal
Not to deminish the loses of the War, but the casualities we have suffered thus far are much lighter than we suffered in past wars.

How wonderful for us. And I certainly can't think of any wars or blitzkreigs in the past where light casualties on the aggressor's side failed to justify the attack. Your logic has opened in me a third eye.

ZeaLitY

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« Reply #37 on: March 30, 2006, 09:40:07 pm »
Hell, a lot of stuff used to be the capital of the world. Rome, London, and my personal favorite, Constantinople! Pax Byzantium! They were really cool, especially since they kept western civlization somewhat out of the peat bogs during the dark ages (while Muslim civilization began to thrive when the middle ages rolled around). A shame they changed Constantinople's name to Istanbul; the former name really imparts that sense of dignity and eternity. Rome lasted until 1453! And it would have been magnificent to have it last even until today. I'm always interested by old states and traditions surviving to the modern times. For instance, there's still a Sipahi of the Porte unit in the Turkish army (they were elites apart from the Janissaries). They don't ride on horses anymore, but they still maintain all the tradition of the unit.

Maelstrom

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« Reply #38 on: March 30, 2006, 11:19:02 pm »
Quote from: Burning Zeppelin
First off, It's almost time for school for me (damn the compulsory school system!) so I will make this short and snappy.
"We" aren't losing many causalties. We are just killing.


Indeed, we aren't taking many casualties (single thousands).  My point was more that we'd need to sacrifice more than that if we are going to eliminate so much of the enemy that has eluded us, but anyone who expects us to have a lower death toll considering the circumstances is delusional.

And as it's been suggested, it'll probably also require a greater military force to cover all the area we would need to.

The point I was trying to make is that even with our great technology and hard work from our military, winning any war like this will still be expensive, and that Bush's promotion of the war (and Congress's reaction now) as something that should be cheap and easy is wrong.  And really, it's a disservice to those in our military who are really doing a great job, given the circumstances.

I hope this clarification makes my message clearer.

Burning Zeppelin

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« Reply #39 on: March 31, 2006, 04:06:31 am »
Quote from: ZeaLitY
Hell, a lot of stuff used to be the capital of the world. Rome, London, and my personal favorite, Constantinople! Pax Byzantium! They were really cool, especially since they kept western civlization somewhat out of the peat bogs during the dark ages (while Muslim civilization began to thrive when the middle ages rolled around). A shame they changed Constantinople's name to Istanbul; the former name really imparts that sense of dignity and eternity. Rome lasted until 1453! And it would have been magnificent to have it last even until today. I'm always interested by old states and traditions surviving to the modern times. For instance, there's still a Sipahi of the Porte unit in the Turkish army (they were elites apart from the Janissaries). They don't ride on horses anymore, but they still maintain all the tradition of the unit.

Yeah  :P  The reason why the name was changed was because Constantinople signified Constantine, the spreader of Christianity, and correct me if I am wrong, the founder of the Roman Catholic Church.

What the hell Maelstorm? You realize people are dying. More Iraqis have probably died in these 3 years then in Saddams entire reign. And even so, you think killing more of your own people will make things better, killing people to save people getting killed, even if the amount of people we kill is far more then the amount of people being saved? I know each life is priceless but that is not the point.

Sentenal

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« Reply #40 on: March 31, 2006, 11:43:31 am »
Quote from: Lord J esq
Quote from: Sentenal
Not to deminish the loses of the War, but the casualities we have suffered thus far are much lighter than we suffered in past wars.

How wonderful for us. And I certainly can't think of any wars or blitzkreigs in the past where light casualties on the aggressor's side failed to justify the attack. Your logic has opened in me a third eye.

Good job missing the point entirely.

Maelstrom

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« Reply #41 on: March 31, 2006, 12:52:44 pm »
Quote from: Burning Zeppelin
What the hell Maelstorm? You realize people are dying. More Iraqis have probably died in these 3 years then in Saddams entire reign. And even so, you think killing more of your own people will make things better, killing people to save people getting killed, even if the amount of people we kill is far more then the amount of people being saved? I know each life is priceless but that is not the point.


Getting more of our own people killed isn't a part of my objective.  It's just something that's going to happen the longer you fight a war.

Now, if you are talking about innocent Iraqi people that are getting killed (typically by insurgents, presumably), that was outside the scope of my original analysis.  My discussion was more to point out how unrealistic certain people are when they see the *American* death toll from this war in the single thousands (~2400 now?  but also 17k - 48k wounded)  The point here is that the loss of American lives in war is going to be steep.

But yes, Iraqi lives are extremely important here, too.  It speaks to very much to another thing that will certainly go wrong in war: Not only will the loss of our lives be substantial, but the *innocent* native people of the country we invade will suffer even more; estimates of citivilians killed are around 36,000.  That loss is comparable to the United States losing over 400,000 from some tragedy (seeing as we have over 11x the population Iraq does).  Perhaps this is one area our military has been disappointing in, but I don't think we've made the commitment (in terms of number of people we have over there) needed to keep this under control, and I don't see that being the fault of the people serving over there.  It's one of those things that makes you wonder if any kind of aggressive war, the kind you can't justify unless you rebuild the country afterwards, is going to do more harm than good anyway, and thus would not be worth it.  The cure is worse than the disease or whatever.

So, I'm not saying any of this as an advocate of the Iraq war.  I'm saying it as more of a criticism of people (the White House, much of Congress, and several Americans who bought into the BS, although the government is far more to blame) who wanted this war, because they naively thought it would be easy and acted with excessive optimistism instead of planning with a bad case scenario (not necessarily worst, but a likely unfavorable) in mind.

At the same time, I should also criticize the people who wanted this war that did know the price involved (Iraqi and American lives, plus the $200 billion - $300 billion we've paid so far, which could be as much as $1 trillion total and probably also 4x as many lives lost across the board), especially those who advocate keep taxes low during this time (and hence don't give a damn about our future generations with regard to paying off the debt).

Burning Zeppelin

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« Reply #42 on: March 31, 2006, 09:38:40 pm »
Just wondering, when did another nation actually invade America and attack the people? And I'm not including the British here. Pearl Harbour was just stupid, and so was 9/11.

Sentenal

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« Reply #43 on: March 31, 2006, 11:36:13 pm »
Pearal Harbor was stupid...  As was 9/11...  What the hell?

America invaded itself like 150 years ago.

Radical_Dreamer

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« Reply #44 on: March 31, 2006, 11:36:31 pm »
Quote from: Burning Zeppelin
Just wondering, when did another nation actually invade America and attack the people? And I'm not including the British here. Pearl Harbour was just stupid, and so was 9/11.


Pearl Harbour and 9/11 weren't invasions, they were bombings. No ground troops were sent in. The last time America was invaded was by Japan during WWII, though. For part of the war, Japan held some of the Aleutian Islands; the archapelego stretching west from Alaska.