Author Topic: 1999 Differing From The System  (Read 5134 times)

DBoruta

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1999 Differing From The System
« Reply #15 on: March 12, 2006, 08:42:37 pm »
sssssz:  

I liked a lot of what you wrote up until a certain point.  A lot of the basics in your argument about the flow of time hit right on with what I consider the flow of time to be.  As far as Lavos actually being able to affect the gate that led to 1999 A.D. so that the 4-D coordinates were staying on a fixed 4-D point instead of changing based upon Time Error, I'm still out on it - the pocket dimension that Lavos creates could have an effect on the surrounding area, including the gate that leads to a place very close to where Lavos emerges, but Time Error still does come into play but in what seems to be a restricted manner until some changes happen.  

So, let's get to what I'm having problems with:

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Around the moment when Lavos ascends, time flows toward that moment, not the End of Time. For a short while, Lavos exerts a greater temporal gravity than the End of Time. Thus, Time Error, which is a special measure of time in respect of the standard flow of time (toward the End of Time) fails to work and Lavos' presence overrides standard temporal mechanics


This isn't how Time Error works.  Time Error is based upon the idea that you are holding 4-D time as a measurement of position like the first 3 dimensions, and you are using a 5-D axis as your new time axis.  So, it wouldn't really matter if 4-D time was dilated such that the gravity well of Lavos' pocket dimension caused all time to flow toward the point in 4-D time where Lavos emerges from the planet's interior now would it?  

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Before Year 1999, there is no moment of being sucked into an exact temporal point. Why? Because he doesn't exist outside Year 1999. Even if Lavos has transcended time, it seems to be bound by time most of the time. Maybe he only exerts so much temporal gravity only when he is attacking a planet. Proof? The Ocean Palace Incident and Magus' summoning of Lavos in Year 600. Lavos showed up, but time flowed fine. What the hell? I believe this is because Lavos was summoned, not ascended.


This is blatantly wrong.  Lavos does exist outside of 1999 A.D.  We know this to be true because Lavos fell to the planet in 65,000,000 B.C.  Furthermore, Lavos showed up at the Ocean Palace disaster in 12,000 B.C.  of its own will - Lavos was not summoned.  In 600 A.D., it was summoned, but not in 12,000 B.C.   Also, in-game evidence tells us that Lavos reigned atop Death Peak (although it's not completely clear what "atop" means by looking at Death Peak) after it ascended to the planet's surface.  

Lavos must also have some connection to the flow of time, despite being in a pocket dimension, as we know from in-game evidence that Lavos consumes the planet's energy and assimilates DNA from every living being on the planet.    

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So... From the Begining of Time till Year 1999, time passed normally as Lavos was dormant, and in Year 1999, Lavos ate time... wait, then how does future after the Day of Lavos exist? My answer: Future doesn't exist. Future has not happened yet, because time can't get there. The future the Heroes of Time and playes see are consequences prepared by time. Remember, with my stupid and unfounded pseudotheory, time is stuck at 1999. And Year 2300 is after Year 1999. This is a reason why the Heroes of Time could change the future. All they had to do is change the present event - Lavos.


Again, this is just blatantly wrong.  Time cannot be stuck at 1999 A.D. - we know this for a fact since time actually passes in 2300 A.D.  What you are proposing would not lead to a timeline but a type of time freeze similar to what we see in Chrono Cross' Dead Sea.  More evidence against your argument is that there is evidence of Lavos' activities after 1999 A.D. - namely, its spawn and its presence.  Furthermore, the fact that the Mother Brain computer talks about Lavos' children leaving one day to "seek new planets and prey."  If Lavos consumed time at that point and effectively became the endpoint of time, it would not have has spawn in 2300 A.D. nor reigned atop Death Peak.


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Alright. Now, about Gates. My view on time warping: Temporal Gravity Slingshot effect. Apparently, Lavos is an integral part ot time warping. It could mean that Lavos is a necessary part. ...


While a good deal of this really does sound pretty good and I really would like to believe it, I just don't buy that Lavos has that much power that it can bend ALL of space-time at the one moment in 1999 A.D.   Sure, Lavos is damn powerful, but let's be honest with ourselves here - if Lavos was that powerful already, there would have been no purpose for Lavos to feed off the planet or create spawn, since under your theory, Lavos is so powerful that it will just devour time already from its pocket dimension in 1999 A.D.  We see in Chrono Cross that this can't possibly be the case, since Lavos as the Time Devourer is a being that requires much more energy and also a completely different dimensional location (actually being in the Darkness Beyond Time) to be able to devour time.    

So, while I am in agreement that Lavos can cause spacetime distortions, I am definitely not in agreement that Lavos has so much power that it bends the entirety of time toward it.

sssssz

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1999 Differing From The System
« Reply #16 on: March 12, 2006, 10:19:35 pm »
Yay, finally! I've been waiting for this since I posted this.

...though, tragically I'm feeling really groggy today, and I'm not as hyper as I was this Friday. So I'll only try replying to only a few of these.

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So... From the Begining of Time till Year 1999, time passed normally as Lavos was dormant, and in Year 1999, Lavos ate time... wait, then how does future after the Day of Lavos exist? My answer: Future doesn't exist. Future has not happened yet, because time can't get there. The future the Heroes of Time and playes see are consequences prepared by time. Remember, with my stupid and unfounded pseudotheory, time is stuck at 1999. And Year 2300 is after Year 1999. This is a reason why the Heroes of Time could change the future. All they had to do is change the present event - Lavos.


Again, this is just blatantly wrong. Time cannot be stuck at 1999 A.D. - we know this for a fact since time actually passes in 2300 A.D. What you are proposing would not lead to a timeline but a type of time freeze similar to what we see in Chrono Cross' Dead Sea. More evidence against your argument is that there is evidence of Lavos' activities after 1999 A.D. - namely, its spawn and its presence. Furthermore, the fact that the Mother Brain computer talks about Lavos' children leaving one day to "seek new planets and prey." If Lavos consumed time at that point and effectively became the endpoint of time, it would not have has spawn in 2300 A.D. nor reigned atop Death Peak.


Maybe I should have worded these better. Or I should keep a constant tone. Or I was wrong about what I've said all the time. :(

When I said that Lavos ate time, I didn't mean it literally. (Lavos eating time would mean that a fundamental mechanism of the universe is destroyed, thus everything within it would break. It'd be kinda like pushing a ball into a slit with zero thickness... I guess.)  Things would try to fall toward the End of Time, but Lavos wouldn't let them go. It's moving, but toward a wrong target. Or something. The reason I said that was because, according to what I uttered, future shouldn't be accesible. But in CT the Heroes of Time even visits it, learns something from it and even brings a robot from there. So future gotta exist.

And it does. It's just not as real as past or present. The universe knows what happened in the beginning of universe, because it has happened. It would also know what happened ten minutes after the beginning, too. Or fifty billion years later. And it would know what happened ten minutes ago from now. And it would know what happened one ksana ago, because regardless of period, it happened. What about now? Well, the universe is looking at it. Alright. What about ten minutes later from now? Well, since it hasn't happened yet, the universe couldn't look at the record of all things/itself and tell what happened. Instead, it could guess what's going to happen, judging from what has happened and what is happening. What about fifty billion years later? Hmm... The universe might try guessing it, but chances are too low.

But, oh wait, what about the end of time? The univese knows - it's going to end. Pracitcally, the End of Time has happened.

So time know what is going to happen... With two certain points in time, the universe could try reverse-engineering the events between them. And the result would be the future as we see it. It's still mutable, because something in the present could change. But again, the final consequence needs to be met and the past events are immutable.

So, in CT, the universe guessed that, after Lavos erupted, it'd nuke the Earth. Then do something bad. And some more. Then, it'd make little Lavoslets and reign atop the Death Peak. The universe thinks it's the most likely. So that's why when you go to future, it's like that.

But when something in present changes--when timeline makes a radical turn--the guessed future wouldn't exist. Because, without Lavos to nuke the Earth, do bad stuffs to Earth and spawn Lavoslets, the guessed future would not make much sense. So the universe guesses a new future without Lavos.

Ehh... in short: The future both exists and doesn't exist. I tried ot show this with the diagrams, with the future part being sorta gray. The future's not there, but it's likely it'll be there.

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Before Year 1999, there is no moment of being sucked into an exact temporal point. Why? Because he doesn't exist outside Year 1999. Even if Lavos has transcended time, it seems to be bound by time most of the time. Maybe he only exerts so much temporal gravity only when he is attacking a planet. Proof? The Ocean Palace Incident and Magus' summoning of Lavos in Year 600. Lavos showed up, but time flowed fine. What the hell? I believe this is because Lavos was summoned, not ascended.


This is blatantly wrong.  Lavos does exist outside of 1999 A.D.  We know this to be true because Lavos fell to the planet in 65,000,000 B.C.  Furthermore, Lavos showed up at the Ocean Palace disaster in 12,000 B.C.  of its own will - Lavos was not summoned.  In 600 A.D., it was summoned, but not in 12,000 B.C.   Also, in-game evidence tells us that Lavos reigned atop Death Peak (although it's not completely clear what "atop" means by looking at Death Peak) after it ascended to the planet's surface.  


Yep. That's the initial reaction I got when I showed to someone else. My point, put clearer: Lavos time is the present.

Think of it like this: Let's pretend I ate a rock this morning. Am I eating a rock right now? No. The event is not here. I will eat a chemistry book for lunch tomorrow. Am I eating a chemistry book now? No. The event is not here. I am pissed at the humid weather. Am I pissed at the humid weather? Yes. I am pissed at the humid weather. The event is here. Me being pissed at humid weather now did not exist or will exist, beside right now. Year 1999 being the point where time is held in standard peaceful timeline, the event of Lavos existing in 1999 would be the only event here. Lavos descending to Earth is a record, and Lavos ruling atop the Death Peak is a guess. (And honestly this is getting convoluted. Give me another day, and I'll come up with a better explanation. Or admit to kicking my own ass.)

And about Ocean Palace - I think of it as Lavos swatting a horsefly on its bum. Lavos was sitting deep within Earth, minding its own business, and some things poke at it. First he didn't really mind, but when these things lost control and poked Lavos too hard, Lavos swung its tail and slapped Zeal real hard. Might be its instict-ish thing rather than pushing its agenda.  :?


Briefly, halfassed response - I should think more about Time Error. I swear I thought how Time Error (or at least something analogous to it) would work with the system I came up with...

And Gates - Lavos may not be as powerful, but it might be the only temporal gravity source beside the End of Time... and I think that's significant enough.

Burning Zeppelin

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1999 Differing From The System
« Reply #17 on: March 13, 2006, 03:22:56 am »
My mind! It dies!

Mystik3eb

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1999 Differing From The System
« Reply #18 on: March 13, 2006, 05:29:57 am »
So you're saying that 1999 is the "Present"...? Cuz otherwise Lavos in 1999 would simply be either past history, or a damned good guess. Meaning that whoever the Entity is opened the gate back in the past, changing what happened in the past, and allowing people who existed in history to change history...according to the Present, assuming it's 1999...all these changes occured in the past, meaning that this present will not exist, because according to history, people went through gates and changed history even more, making it the current history...

...yeah, headache.

Magus22

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1999 Differing From The System
« Reply #19 on: March 13, 2006, 11:06:13 am »
yes

but how did they explain the RD text in Chronopolis?

are there multiple worlds, HOME and ANOTHER with this RD plot?

it's confusing, but proof that this game is so envolved and awesome that everyone here is putting their minds to think of what is going on!!  :wink:

which is awesome

DBoruta

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1999 Differing From The System
« Reply #20 on: March 13, 2006, 12:05:14 pm »
Quote from: sssssz
Ehh... in short: The future both exists and doesn't exist. I tried to show this with the diagrams, with the future part being sorta gray. The future's not there, but it's likely it'll be there.

...

My point, put clearer: Lavos time is the present.
 



Ok, I understand where you are coming from now with this - you're trying to apply relativity and some quantum to 4-D time in a way that the future is a "guess" but not really reality.  At first glance, it seems reasonable, but if you take it from the perspective that each part of time is just a 4-D point along an axis, where the relativistic perspective you are taking is someone looking at it all from the End of Time or some other 5-D junction point for 4-D, you see  that all 4-D has happened, and any changes therein are measured under 5-D time (thus, the basic principle of Time Error).  So, your thinking is great - I love it, but I don't believe it's completely correct.

AuraTwilight

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1999 Differing From The System
« Reply #21 on: March 13, 2006, 07:48:39 pm »
I like this theory, I like it alot, I really do. However, Chronoverse seems to imply that Past, Present, and Future are relative. If anything, the Entity is the only true witness to Past, Present, and Future, and it's implied that 1999 is in it's Past.

Agent 12

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Re: 1999 Differing From The System
« Reply #22 on: June 18, 2006, 06:39:43 pm »
This is a horrible bump but I was just browsing in work and came across this and have to say this is why I love the compendium.  Smart people + Chrono Trigger.  I hope everyone that comes here gets to read this thread.

--jp

but2002

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Re: 1999 Differing From The System
« Reply #23 on: June 19, 2006, 10:15:37 am »
Interesting theory, BUt its a headach to get.. 0_O

Hehe, I used the Bucket to defeat the outside without Crono, got Crono went to the Black omen in 12,000B.C. Destroyed it, and the Head was gone, but I defeated it AFTER 12,000B.C., in 1999A.D.

THen I left, and Used the epoch and Beat the Game.....

But How does Defeating the Head in 1999A.D.
also destroy it in 12,000B.C.?

CyberSarkany

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Re: 1999 Differing From The System
« Reply #24 on: June 19, 2006, 12:24:47 pm »
Actually, if you defeat the head  before the Ocean's Palace Incident in 1999 AD, it still remains in 12.000 AD, but that's probably just because otherwise the story wouldn't go on.

You Destroy the head in his Pocket Dimension, what means that it is destroyed in every other timeline(PD is eomthing beyond time). Only his Actions he did while he wasn't in his PD are still remaining(like destroying zeal).

I think... :lee:

AuraTwilight

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Re: 1999 Differing From The System
« Reply #25 on: June 20, 2006, 05:12:42 pm »
It's not that the Pocket Dimension is beyond time, but that it's a seperate timeline.

but2002

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Re: 1999 Differing From The System
« Reply #26 on: June 20, 2006, 11:40:27 pm »
I see, But I said Bucket, You see the Groud, Start ranting,m walk uip, ans Ask, "Did we do that?" on solid ground, not hte PD