Author Topic: The Nature of Masa, Mune, Doreen  (Read 2717 times)

DeweyisOverrated

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The Nature of Masa, Mune, Doreen
« on: March 07, 2006, 02:24:41 am »
I'll skip past the obvious stuff.

We know that Masa and Mune (and Doreen) were created "out of Melchoir's dreams".  They can seperate, and then combine into one form.

Now, here's my question.  Were Masa and Mune created seperatly?  Or, were they envisioned as one being, which can seperate into two forms?  Another way of asking this is, did Melchoir "envision" them as two seperate beings, and they somehow learned how to morph?  Or, did he envision it as one being that can split?

Secondly, how does Doreen play into this?  When they form the Mastermune, can they form a sort-of "uber"being?  Take note that when serge receives the Mastermune, using Flying arrow shows the original Masamune "monster" behind him, possibly implying that Doreen may not change with them, or she may, but the appearance doesn't change.

Chrono'99

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The Nature of Masa, Mune, Doreen
« Reply #1 on: March 07, 2006, 04:13:40 am »
Additionally, the Tech "Grand Dream" in CT shows 3 fat Masamune monsters attacking the enemies... Since Mastermune is actually also called Grand Dream in the Japanese CC version, it's most probable that the 3 monsters of the CT Grand Dream are supposed to Masa, Mune, and Doreen (each in uber-form...).

sssssz

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The Nature of Masa, Mune, Doreen
« Reply #2 on: March 07, 2006, 01:01:19 pm »
Why was Grandleon renamed as the Masamune in the first place anyway? I would have understood if it were the other way around, but I just don't get this... Something tells me Nintendo would prefer Grandleon over the Masamune.

Well anyway. I think Masa, Mune and Doreen are the one and seperate dreams. Kinda like, Masa could be Melchior's will to forge and Mune could be his will to refine, and as Masamune they become Melchior's will to create. (I'm not saying they are that. Just... an example.) Doreen then can be something like, Melchior's dream to shape the ultimate weaponry. So Masa and Mune can do what they are supposed to do, and Doreen can help them at what they can do by themselves... or something.

Uh... I hope you got what I was talking about there.

DeweyisOverrated

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The Nature of Masa, Mune, Doreen
« Reply #3 on: March 07, 2006, 01:58:27 pm »
That actually makes sense.  Another question I forgot to post was, do Masa and Mune actually represent what they say they do?  "With Masa's bravery and Mune's knowledge, two become one." I'm wondering if maybe Masa embodies Melchoir's dream of bravery, etc.

Of course, that raises the question of what Doreen was meant to represent.

sssssz

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The Nature of Masa, Mune, Doreen
« Reply #4 on: March 07, 2006, 02:08:33 pm »
If Masa and Mune say what they are, Doreen could be dream itself. She talks about it often. By dream becoming one with bravery and knowledge, the Masamune gains its true power. Without a dream, bravery and knowledge are nothing more than purposeless power...

Though, I thought the "With Masa's bravery and Mune's knowledge, two become one!" quote was a parody of many animes and stuff...

DeweyisOverrated

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The Nature of Masa, Mune, Doreen
« Reply #5 on: March 07, 2006, 02:47:20 pm »
Quote from: sssssz
Though, I thought the "With Masa's bravery and Mune's knowledge, two become one!" quote was a parody of many animes and stuff...


Definitly a possibility.  The guy who designed the characters (forgot the name) was actually the same artist who designed the characters in Dragon Ball Z, which is sometimes a criticism of the character design in Trigger.  And although I've never watched DragonBallZ in my life, I do know that they have that "FFFUSSSS...SSSION!" thing going, where two people combine into another form.

Burning Zeppelin

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The Nature of Masa, Mune, Doreen
« Reply #6 on: March 07, 2006, 03:31:03 pm »
Yes, you have to admit that the whole cliche is that without a goal (aka Dream) you have no purpose and that you have no purpose in fighting. Bravery and knowledge are self explanitory; they give the user more stats in areas connected to it. Dream gives the person a reason to fight.

AuraTwilight

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The Nature of Masa, Mune, Doreen
« Reply #7 on: March 07, 2006, 06:46:41 pm »
In Japanese culture, Courage (Will, actually), Wisdom, and Power were seen as a trinity of sorts, and makes it's way into Japanese popculture like CT and heck, even Zelda's Triforce, and other examples in video games and anime. The Japanese believe that without one of these three traits, the other two are meaningless. Power without the Wisdom and Will to use it are worthless. Wisdom without the Power and Will to use it is worthless, and Will without Power or Wisdom to use it is meaningless.

Perhaps Melchior intended the Masamune to have the Power, Wisdom, and Will to be used as a holy weapon to create, and never strike down the innocent (See actual Masamune myth). Without Doreen, however, the Sword is merely Power and Wisdom with no Will. Thus, the Masamune draws strength from the will of it's bearer. This ultimately led to it's corruption, as we know, and Doreen created the Mastermune, the Ultimate Weapon Melchior invisioned.

GrayLensman

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The Nature of Masa, Mune, Doreen
« Reply #8 on: March 07, 2006, 07:57:55 pm »
Quote from: AuraTwilight
In Japanese culture, Courage (Will, actually), Wisdom, and Power were seen as a trinity of sorts, and makes it's way into Japanese popculture like CT and heck, even Zelda's Triforce, and other examples in video games and anime. The Japanese believe that without one of these three traits, the other two are meaningless. Power without the Wisdom and Will to use it are worthless. Wisdom without the Power and Will to use it is worthless, and Will without Power or Wisdom to use it is meaningless.

Perhaps Melchior intended the Masamune to have the Power, Wisdom, and Will to be used as a holy weapon to create, and never strike down the innocent (See actual Masamune myth). Without Doreen, however, the Sword is merely Power and Wisdom with no Will. Thus, the Masamune draws strength from the will of it's bearer. This ultimately led to it's corruption, as we know, and Doreen created the Mastermune, the Ultimate Weapon Melchior invisioned.


This is really quite insightfull.  The question is, why wasn't Doreen included in the Masamune in the first place?  Either Melchior ran out of time to complete the sword before the Ocean Palace incident or it was flawed in design.  Perhaps Doreen wasn't fully prepared to fuse with the others at that time.  She did seem somewhat unfocused or "flakier" compared to Masa and Mune.

Quote
[Mune]  
   I wanna be the wind, Masa!

 [Masa]
   Oh, you will some day.

 [Mune]
   Big sister Doreen's at Enhasa again

 [Masa]
   Yeah...
   That's 'cause she likes dreams.

 [Mune]
   I like the wind better!
   Whoosh!


Of course, they were all kind of weird.

ChronoMagus

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The Nature of Masa, Mune, Doreen
« Reply #9 on: March 07, 2006, 10:15:43 pm »
When you talk to Doreen she is really random in a sense... (in another sense one could argue her total brilliance and intellect) but possibly Melchior created a Doreen as a failsafe, in case the sword's master is corrupted.  Doreen would come and cleanse the sword, but Melchior did not see it necessary at first.

Mystik3eb

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The Nature of Masa, Mune, Doreen
« Reply #10 on: March 08, 2006, 02:56:27 am »
I believe it's both, but mostly that Melchior didn't finish it in time. I just find it interesting that Doreen COMPLETELY disappeared after Zeal fell until right after Dario was beat and Masa and Mune woke up.

AuraTwilight

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The Nature of Masa, Mune, Doreen
« Reply #11 on: March 08, 2006, 09:04:25 pm »
Quote
This is really quite insightfull. The question is, why wasn't Doreen included in the Masamune in the first place? Either Melchior ran out of time to complete the sword before the Ocean Palace incident or it was flawed in design. Perhaps Doreen wasn't fully prepared to fuse with the others at that time. She did seem somewhat unfocused or "flakier" compared to Masa and Mune.


Continuing the analogy of the trinity I mentioned, it was believed that you can't be born with all three in perfect alignment. You have to refine them through spiritual growth. Maybe Melchior chose Doreen to be the one to meditate and grow (hence the Dream connection) because, in an emergency, she could be the one dropped with minimal problems. Without Power, there's no sword. Without Wisdom, the sword could be corrupted by Power. However, without Will, the sword would have Power, and the Wisdom to keep it from being corrupted (Atleast for a good while.)

Durakken

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The Nature of Masa, Mune, Doreen
« Reply #12 on: April 12, 2006, 09:19:48 pm »
I don't think Doreen represents a dream because simply the dialogue of masa and mune when crono wins... Something to the effect of "What will become of us? Will they find us a master? will they fix us?" This in effect shows they have a dream, but they really don't have any intentions or the ability to do it themselves. They obviously have the ability to do it if they really had the will to.

Burning Zeppelin

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The Nature of Masa, Mune, Doreen
« Reply #13 on: April 13, 2006, 12:09:29 am »
Is it just me, or do "Masa" "Mune" and "Doreen" remind you of the Christian Trinity? Some Christians say the Holy Ghost is feminine, and for all we know, Doreen...

AuraTwilight

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The Nature of Masa, Mune, Doreen
« Reply #14 on: April 13, 2006, 09:07:47 pm »
Ha. The Christian Trinity is the last thing that comes to my mind. At the very least because it implies either Masa or Mune is omnipotent and is the father of the other, atleast metaphorically. The Christian Trinity isn't very balanced at all.