Author Topic: The Amalgamated Weapons, Techs, Items, and Enemies Thread  (Read 2144 times)

Daniel Krispin

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Re: The Amalgamated Weapons, Techs, Items, and Enemies Thread
« Reply #30 on: December 03, 2006, 03:39:38 am »
Heh. This is far from perfect (as you said, you should ask Grey or someone), but I tried my hand at dong a character alone... and for some reason that ended up being Lucca. Though, I suppose, when it comes right down to it, she probably is my favorite CT character... anyway...

Heh. Once more into the fray...
I kind of borrowed from my old drawing for the RadiclDreamer gun for this one (which is presumably the Sun Spot... oh, and by the way, yeah, I think I still have all those drawings somewhere. If not online, then on my computer.) I guess this armour is meant to be the Electra, judging by its Greek influence (a bit like the Classical Hoplite armour, which at times had a linen cuirass to the chest, with scales for the belly... only I've replaced the linen with steel, and added a few shoulder pauldrons such as Greek armour woudln't have had.) For the helmet I stuck with a more typical Lucca look, just changed a bit, particularly the red glasses (it's CRIMSON Echoes, after all...) and a sort of scale neck protection. Actually, I thought this was kind of a neat look for Lucca. I can just see her turning about to hold the rearguard, picking off a few pursuing enemies. And that's another thing: I drew her seeming a bit older than the classical depictions of her imply. I figure she'll have aged a bit.

And... bloody hell. The antenna was messed up. I forgot to erase the background there, so you can't see it sticking back. Damn. Well, you get the idea anyway.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2006, 03:52:52 am by Daniel Krispin »

ZeaLitY

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Re: The Amalgamated Weapons, Techs, Items, and Enemies Thread
« Reply #31 on: December 03, 2006, 05:59:22 pm »
How long did it take you? It's not too shabby!

I guess I'll post later some ideas for all the ultimate armor / helmet dispensations.

Daniel Krispin

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Re: The Amalgamated Weapons, Techs, Items, and Enemies Thread
« Reply #32 on: December 03, 2006, 06:34:19 pm »
How long did it take you? It's not too shabby!

I guess I'll post later some ideas for all the ultimate armor / helmet dispensations.

Ummm... well, to draw... two or three hours. Then maybe another four or five to colour. I think. Somewhere around there. Yeah, I know. I'm a slow artist. Then another hour or so today for this revamped version, which follows. That last one didn't have enough colour defenition.

ZeaLitY

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Re: The Amalgamated Weapons, Techs, Items, and Enemies Thread
« Reply #33 on: December 04, 2006, 12:26:11 am »
Here we go:

Crono goes back to visit his mother, and reluctantly goes upstairs and sifts through things to find his father's old combat uniform...the JeetKuneDo. Crono's mom watches and helps narrate, and then tells Crono that there's someone else he should be seeing. The scene switches to a new Millennial Fair tileset location we'll make, where Crono and Marle discuss how they've come to face responsibility for time traveling, and hope to put an end to Lavos once and for all. The conversation will then become personal; Crono and Marle will both share the issue of losing parents...which segues into love as the camera pans up. The next day, Crono's mom reveals that her husband's bandana, which she's tied around his side of the bedpost since his death, is now Crono's to use. Toma XIII comes by to thank him for the museum.

Marle goes to 1 A.D. to visit Cedric the Executor, still a brash, harsh man, and his wife Aideen. Cedric exits the room as Aideen reveals that in spite of his harshness, he has at last united the human world and that prosperity must ensue. Aideen lets Marle know that she was given the finest female armor since the times of the floating palaces to wear so that no harm came to her while traveling at Cedric's side. Initially wanting to destroy them, she realizes Marle may still use them well and gives them to her. Cedric gives her a manly send off, noting that Guardia's blood is the strongest in the world.

Lucca goes to her house to see Taban and Lara. Taban knows she's about to enter battle, and suggests she go to the future to find some really amazing equipment -- to even bring back for tweaking in 1000 A.D.! At the mall, Lucca asks Johnny if he can finagle some combative armor, which he exchanges for a tune-up. As she prepares to exit, Melchior enters the store; he's been taking a few trips to see the world of the future. He laughs that it's taken thousands of years for science to match magic as a jest at Lucca. She takes it back to Chronopolis, where Gaspar and Melchior both pitch in with Lucca to enhance it. Magus even makes an appearance for a four-parter spell. While this is going on, Lucca reveals that she's very unsettled, because as a scientist it seems natural for her to be in the future to maximize her potential. Melchior agrees that people like Ayla, Glenn, and the others (except Magus) could simply return to their times and be happy, but that Lucca, having gotten a glimpse of humanity's potential, could never turn back. Gaspar then consoles her, noting that everything she does in 1002 A.D. will have a ripple effect on the future -- that with her genius, the state of 2302 A.D. will be achieved years before that date. Gaspar even says that despite the need to preserve timeline integrity, there are some instances...and then trails off. Melchior finishes by saying that yes, like the Gurus and Magus, there may be yet instances of safe extratemporal living -- provided the person is responsible. Melchior confides that Lucca does have this maturity, and Gaspar agrees -- but only if Lucca promises to keep Belthasar in line. Happy, Lucca returns to her house where Taban can't think of any improvements save to stamp the ASHTEAR stencil imprint on it. Lucca notes she'll have to go make a helmet now, but Taban lets it out that he fiddled with the Sun Stone before it was interred in Guardia Castle and managed to make a fancy piece of headgear. He pulls it out of storage for Lucca.

Robo speaks to Mother Brain, sort of reminiscing about how long it has been since his creation. Mother Brain hints at a pride in Robo, who asks her if she still can remember his creation. Mother Brain notes that despite the memory wipe, a subroutine focused on the R series has been running in the background -- she just can't crack it, as all functional construction data was protected by a security code with an override if she and her trade secrets were to fall into enemy hands. She says that a bit of the code was disseminated into all R series robots, and suggests Robo ask Belthasar if he can dig up the pieces Robo lacks. Belthasar is amused and runs a deep search on several mainland mainframes, but only turns up a small part. Robo then asks Atropos, who does have the rest. She is worried, though. They retire and talk; Atropos admires Robo -- noting that he's as brave and upright as any human ever was, and has done more for the space-time continuum than any mechanical being may ever accomplish. Robo assures her that there is much to be done in 2302 A.D., and that he has the greatest warriors in history supporting him. Atropos is still distraught, so Robo gives her something...it's the Ribbon Atropos gave him before dying in the ruined future. Robo tells her that if he could even display one ounce of the love and sincerity that she did in that ruined timeline before dying, he will emerge from the DBT victorious and unscathed. Atropos is moved and gives him the code. Mother Brain dispenses his new armor and helmet, the result of over three hundred years of continuous analytical improvement inside her processing.

Glenn: Melchior tells him during that upgrade sequence that despite his reservations, Melchior still trusts Glenn to wield the Masamune, and that he's sure that King Guardia XXI would give it to him. The player has the option of going to 602 A.D. and getting it; King Guardia XXI will also grant him Cyrus's plate mail, though the helmet is missing, probably stolen by collectors. This will start a scene exactly like the one of Cyrus's departure from the castle in 590 A.D. Glenn will then go to Zenan Bridge. And after a couple comments, whatever characters came with him in the active party will go next to him and stare like him (though Magus will keep a sort of distance). We can even throw in the Knight Captain, who leaves before the party members arrives or even stays. This is a good extra scene to prepare for the DBT. Glenn then takes the Masamune to Melchior, who enhances it with Rainbow. In 1002 A.D., the helmet sits in the museum. Glenn asks Toma XIII to borrow it, and Toma XIII laughs that he shouldn't be so serious -- that visiting his ancestor has resulted in more finds that he can count. He still notes that Toma XIV is going to have to make his own path in the world and won't be able to mooch off his dad.

Ayla enters the Chief Hut, but becomes distraught over Kino's absence and leaves. Glenn enters (if he's not in the party) and asks what happened. He finds her upon Singing Mountain at the summit. Ayla mourns Kino's death, referring to him as not strong enough to withstand the animals' anger at the cooling climate. Glenn asks Ayla if she would consider Cyrus "not strong enough." Ayla agrees that he could not defeat Magus, but Glenn tells her that Cyrus's example and death motivated him to ultimately become "strong enough" -- and that if Ayla uses Kino's life as inspiration, his strength will not be in vain and will help Ayla overcome the Time Devourer. Ayla...tries to agree, but still is somewhat perturbed. Glenn takes a more hushed tone, telling her that her example of totally unyielding life and passion makes her the most living member of the time travelers -- that everyone wishes he or her could be as strong and alive as Ayla. He tells her that even though something has gotten her down, the voice of the vibrant land can't be muted forever. Ayla uncovers a rock nearby and extracts the NemeanHide and Lion Head, strong hides made for the Reptite war but finished right before its conclusion. She buried them there, and now dons them for the final battle.

Magus is complicated. Though Schala is lost again, his new life has begun changing him...at the North Cape, he reminisces about standing there, condemning all of Zeal and the rest of the world while affirming his revenge. Back at Chronopolis, he asks Belthasar if he can use the TDC to take care of something...Belthasar acquiesces, and he travels to 598 B.C. The scene shifts to a mountain setting where Ozzie and Magus have just concluded training a couple Mystics. All but Magus leave; as he prepares to go...the Magus (we'll call him Magil now) we know steps out. Magus is disturbed and swears that he will kill whatever pixie or fool has decided to mock him. Magil asks Magus to take his best shit, which Magil promptly deflects and knocks Magus to the ground. As the dumbfounded Magus stammers, Magil asks him what his purpose is, calling him a narrow-minded child bent on revenge. Magil utters the name Schala, causing Magus to revile Magil and demand to know his identity. Magil asks Magus if he wants to get revenge on Lavos and kill the beast that destroyed his sister, but just as Magus begins to answer, Magil ridicules him again. Magil asks if Magus ever thought for one second if Schala was alive, noting that Magus has been consumed with hatred on a self-destructing path. Magus is absolutely confounded, still asking to know Magil's identity. Magil says to him, "be silent, and look upon your future." (Tacit intuereque tuus futurus.) Magil then demands to have the Crimson Hood, the magically enriched garb to be worn by Magus after the victory of the Mystic War. Magus, trembling, relinquishes its location. Magil tells Magus that nothing lives forever -- even that endless night of his circumstance. As Magil leaves, he decides that making Magus question his path at this stage may disrupt history, and knocks him out with a powerful blow to the head, noting that it will all seem a dream to him upon waking up. Magil departs, noting he should probably visit Janus once more (and finding the CrimseHood in between scene changes) and returns to Chronopolis. If the player visits Janus, Magil will pull out the Guile Mask from under the bed, remarking that it was to be worn at his royal coming of age ceremony and discarded to show his fair visage to the people of Zeal as a future ruler. He takes it with him back to Chronopolis, noting that "it has been a long time coming, Janus!"

Daniel Krispin

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Re: The Amalgamated Weapons, Techs, Items, and Enemies Thread
« Reply #34 on: December 04, 2006, 02:12:05 am »
Oooh. Impressive. Most impressive. To quote Darth Vader. Really, that works perfectly. By the way, I have to ask, I got that right when I named the helm for Crono the Lee Band, right? I meant to allude to that Naruto character you like, but not knowing it myself might have messed up the name.

« Last Edit: December 04, 2006, 02:47:36 am by Daniel Krispin »

ZeaLitY

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Re: The Amalgamated Weapons, Techs, Items, and Enemies Thread
« Reply #35 on: December 04, 2006, 02:30:41 am »
It works well. Jeet Kune Do is what Bruce Lee "named" his philosophy of using what works, discarding what doesn't, learning from experience, and adding what is specifically your own. In other words, no style; just logic and no adherence to what tradition dictates. So Lee Band works well, even if Rock Lee (based on Bruce) isn't even considered.

Daniel Krispin

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Re: The Amalgamated Weapons, Techs, Items, and Enemies Thread
« Reply #36 on: December 04, 2006, 02:47:58 am »
Ah, good. I like nothing better than when allusions work out nicely.

Just another thing... of course... Tacit intuereque tuus futurus... the command 'be silent' would probably be an imperitive, right? The root is in tacit, to be sure, but the verb is taceo, thus in imperitive it is 'tace'... unless I missed something. Intuereque is too advanced for me at this stage. It's deponent, and though I could unwind that in Greek, it's a little beyond me in Latin at the moment. But it seems to be right.
The last part should probably be constructed with 'de' and an ablative (de denoting 'concerning' and things alike.) Now normally, this then takes the ablative, and the word 'your' takes the same gender as the thing (not of the possessor, thus if I possess a door, which is porta, a feminine, it is not porta meus, but porta mea. You might know this... I'm not sure if you know Latin.) Anyway, I'm not quite sure how to handle this, because in this case futurus/a/um is in fact a participular form of 'to be', so it's basically saying that person or thing's future state of being. Its gender is in fact dependent on the thing. I can only assume that it thus takes the masculine because of Magus, thus futurus, and likewise tuus. However, it's ablative, not nominitive. Thus, likely futuro tuo. So it's probably more 'Tace intuereque de futuro tuo.' Of course, it might be advisable to retain what you have, as it flows better. And, as might be, I might have totally mistaken my Latin.

Oh, by the way, you should have him directly address Magus in Latin, and have Magus reply in it. It would be kind of interesting to see the names declined. Ie. 'Salve Mago! Salve Malo!' and a reply of 'Qui se? Trucidabo quodcunque animus aut stultus me statuit deridere.' Or something like that.

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Re: The Amalgamated Weapons, Techs, Items, and Enemies Thread
« Reply #37 on: December 04, 2006, 04:02:12 am »
Quote
It works well. Jeet Kune Do is what Bruce Lee "named" his philosophy of using what works, discarding what doesn't, learning from experience, and adding what is specifically your own. In other words, no style; just logic and no adherence to what tradition dictates. So Lee Band works well, even if Rock Lee (based on Bruce) isn't even considered.

I'm glad that you put it that way.
originally Jeet Kun Do "the way of the intercepting fist" was a style based solely on making you opponent move out of a 'safe' position and strike before they can strike you (intercept). however later he learned that style meant nothing but hindrance and Jeet kun Do simply became a philosophy.

For some reason I think "Jeet Kun Do" should be Chrono's ultimate bandanna, not body armor, for some reason it feels much more fitting to me.

It would make sense if his final armor was his father's enhanced by rainbow material, simply have the armor he gets be a key item, and then after Melchior supes it up it can have the name "Nexus Armor" or something

Chrono'99

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Re: The Amalgamated Weapons, Techs, Items, and Enemies Thread
« Reply #38 on: December 04, 2006, 09:31:11 am »
Eh, I'm belated and need to catch up, but if I may comment on some stuff:

- The Grandleon:

Although it's a great name, I don't think we should have a weapon called so. It would confuse too many people, they would think that this sword has something to do with the Masamune.

- The Masamune (the real one!):

I assumed that Glenn was to already have it when he joins the party in the beginning. Nobody knows the Masamune in the... Masamune-less 602 A.D., so Glenn wouldn't risk storing it in the castle for curious people to mess with it. It would also make sense for Glenn to carry it when Kasmir is fought with his own past version of the Masamune. I don't think possessing the Masamune for the whole game would be a problem for the other swords available. We could still have more powerful swords and swords with magic bonuses, and one final Masamune upgrade to turn it into the ultimate sword. Just like in CT, in which Frog could equip the sword for all the game except for the Cathedral. The Masamune could be upgraded at the chapter in which Glenn trusts it in the Mammon Machine, that's where I intend to show a glimpse of the corrupted, "red branch" Masamune.

- The ultimate armors:

It seems a bit strange for Crono's and Ayla's equipments to be "ultimate armors". We don't know much about Crono's father, but how could his bandanna have been better than all the magical and legendary equipments that the party found or forged in CT and CT:CE? Same goes for Ayla's NemeanHide and Lion head. It's rather curious that a hide from the pre-magic era could be better than... anything else, really.

The CrimseHood's power is probably better justified, though I think there are some issues with it. Why does Magus need to go to the past to... er, ask himself the location of the artifact? Moreover, why wasn't it in Ozzie's Fort in CT, where Ozzie was said to have stored Magus' ultimate equipments?

Lastly, a more subtle name for the "Guile Mask" might be better. Magus is not Guile after all. I suck at naming helmets so I don't have any name to suggest, but I think something less fan-servicing (and more accurate) would fit better.
« Last Edit: December 04, 2006, 09:38:17 am by Chrono'99 »

Daniel Krispin

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Re: The Amalgamated Weapons, Techs, Items, and Enemies Thread
« Reply #39 on: December 04, 2006, 04:28:39 pm »
- The ultimate armors:

It seems a bit strange for Crono's and Ayla's equipments to be "ultimate armors". We don't know much about Crono's father, but how could his bandanna have been better than all the magical and legendary equipments that the party found or forged in CT and CT:CE? Same goes for Ayla's NemeanHide and Lion head. It's rather curious that a hide from the pre-magic era could be better than... anything else, really.

Easy. The mythic connotation explains it. The Nemean Lion was Herakles' first task. He fought the beast, but none of his arrows could pierce the thing. So he strangled it, and used its own claws to skin it. Thereafter he wore it as armour - the portrayals often show the lion's head like a helmet. Ie.

Okay, that's the emperor Commodus. But he's dressed up like Herakles, as he often did - hence the skin of the lion. The skin of the Nemean Lion was utterly impervious. Though mythical, you could still technically say that it was 'better' than any armour a smith could have forged at a later time... and maybe even better than the armour Hephaistos forges for Akhilleus.

Also, things from the future or from a magic time aren't necessarially better than pre-history. Why, think about, say, the whole Tolkien mythos. Is any given sword made in Gondor better than Glamdring? Are the Rings of greater power than the Silmarils? Antiquity tends to lend an air of power to things. Also, I rather think that any super-armour from the future or from magic would have the reverse effect on Ayla - it would probably hinder her, as she wouldn't understand it. You wouldn't give a Karate expert 16th century Knight armour, after all - it's technically superiour to his Karate Gi, but all his skills would be lost in the process. Same thing here. So for Ayla, yeah, it makes sense how it could be better than anything else. Do you really see her wearing something like adamantine armour or mail of truesilver as her ultimate?

For the bandana and all, going first back to the post before yours, I'd defend the bandana being named the Lee Band because, in naming it, I was thinking of ZeaLitY's favourite Rock Lee - and he always has a bandana, at least in the pictures that I've seen posted. As for Jeet Kun Do, I don't know much about it, but I still think it works better for armour. Nexus doesn't fit Crono's style very well - it'd be more fitting for a character like Robo. And Chrono'99, how can it be better? In the same way a 'VigilHat' can be better than outright helmets made of steel, or bone, which they wore earlier. Chrono Trigger never really paid too much heed to technical realism. I don't think that should be an issue here. If it works thematically, I'd say it works. Technical realism is the sort of thing I'd use when judging my own sort of writing. After all, what makes a small sickle (ie. DoomSickle) better than some of the scythes that Janus uses earlier on?


Lastly, a more subtle name for the "Guile Mask" might be better. Magus is not Guile after all. I suck at naming helmets so I don't have any name to suggest, but I think something less fan-servicing (and more accurate) would fit better.

Personally, I thought it the best of all the helmet names. Magus might not be Guile, but it's still taking a stab at that. Remember, he's also got a weapon called Beguile. Honestly, it comes across as rather funny - and though CE is more serious than Trigger, that comedic element is still there. I'm not sure what would be more 'accurate', anyway. Half the names in CT were unbelievably cheesy as it was.

ZeaLitY

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Re: The Amalgamated Weapons, Techs, Items, and Enemies Thread
« Reply #40 on: December 04, 2006, 04:39:12 pm »
Well, that explains Ayla, but  perhaps Crono can still take some kind of gi to Melchior to outfit with Rainbow platelets. That would explain that. The Lee Band would simply be imbued with his father's dreams maybe?

And I suppose GoldenMask works if we decide not to use Guile Mask. I reluctantly admit that it is sort of fanservicing.

Did the Magus confrontation seem excessive? I really wanted one of them to encounter his or her former self just because we can't really do that in creative stories unless they involve time travel. It could be explained that Magus still had it on him after its creation and was about to seal it, so our Magus picked a time to visit when he knew Magus would have it. We've done so much planning at this point that I'm anxious to get coding...

I'll fix the Glenn things.

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Re: The Amalgamated Weapons, Techs, Items, and Enemies Thread
« Reply #41 on: December 05, 2006, 04:07:55 pm »
It's not really a question of material. Ayla would indeed never wear a metallic armor. I used the term "armor" because I don't know another word in English grouping "armor" as such and RPG stuff like tunics, skins, even robes, etc. Well I think "body protection" could be the term I need. Anyway, it's not a question of material: a VigilHat is better than other metallic protections because it's imbued with the magical properties of Fiona's Forest (if I recall correctly).

The problem with the NemeanHide lies in the fact that this reference doesn't flow well with the narrative of the game. The chronological discrepancy is too huge. There are a few instances of anachronistic real-world influences in the series, like "Cyrus" living in the Middle Ages and "Prometheus" in the future, but all of these are small enough not to shock the players: Robo Prometheus could have been named by Mother Brain after the mythical character even within the Chrono world, and Cyrus' era is simply and fancily inversed (died in 590 A.D. instead of born in 590 B.C.). Now what about the Nemean Lion? We're displacing it from a few thousand B.C. to 65 million B.C., that's quite something. The anachronism is especially disturbing as the CT Prehistoric era is absolutely devoid of any Greek reference. I believe we'd cause a lot of raised eyebrows if we inserted one like that. Having a Nemean Lion in Prehistory would be like having a Zealian called Zhuangzi: Doreen indeed quoted this Chinese philosopher in her speech about dreams, but still, "Zhuangzi" in the middle of Zeal... that's out of place. Sure, "Nemean Lion" sounds less foreign than Zhuangzi, but it's out of place nonetheless.

For people who know the Greek myth, seeing the Nemean Lion in 65,000,000 B.C. would be too much of a breaking of "the fourth wall". And let's not forget that people don't even necessarily know about this Greek myth. For those players, this ultra-resistant lion skin would appear really random. In both cases, the plot device is redundant, as there's already another ultimate monster in 11,998 B.C. which is similarly killed for its skin. Not only that, this lion skin introduction is also almost an instance of retcon, as there were never any mention of it in CT, even though the occasions to mention it were numerous (same goes for Magus' CrimseHood, actually). Even worse, it could constitute a plot-hole: if this thing is better than the best equipments forged or found in CT, and existed since before the Entity even triggered the Telepod incident, why didn't the party retrieve it in CT instead of waiting for CT:CE?

These two last points, retcon and plot-hole, also apply to Crono's father's Lee Band and JeetKuneDo (the 2 names are great though) and to Magus' CrimseHood. The other characters' protections fit well within the narrative.
« Last Edit: December 05, 2006, 04:09:28 pm by Chrono'99 »

Daniel Krispin

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Re: The Amalgamated Weapons, Techs, Items, and Enemies Thread
« Reply #42 on: December 05, 2006, 05:37:09 pm »
1300BC, to be precise. That's when Herodotos says the hero Herakles lived.

Anyway, I'm not quite seeing it in that way. Of course, if that is a problem, the MedeaCrown is far worse. Nonetheless, I'm willing to say the problem is very, very minimal. There is a tradition in games of doing this (more so in FF, but also in CT.) For example, playing through FFX, I'm constantly nodding going 'yeah, know this, know that.' For example, the wolves. Skoll? Garm? Fenrir? Those are wolves in Norse myth. In CT we have, very blatantly, the Three Wise Men. That's far more anachronistic (and really, when has CT ever been consistant on this sort of front? It's not a consistant game) than to meantion Nemea or Medea. I mean, when I first played CT I went 'heh. Melchior.' I knew the name, and I knew the reference at once. Same for Cyrus. Prometheus did the exact same thing for me. Those last two you mentioned, and the thing is... they set the precident for this sort of thing. This is the very point of allusion: the people who don't know it will see it as a mere name, those who do will immediately get the connection, and the presence of the object will become more meaningful for it. This is one of the reasons I despise a game like Xenosaga so much: its allusions are mere surface trivialities... things in name but not substance. There for shock value, but having no real connection with the actual thing, as though the writers were lazy and didn't bother to actually know what they were alluding to. I'm big on allusion, and always try to avoid that. The Furies I suggested be put into it aren't Furies only in name... they act like the Furies would. The NemeanHide is the armour of a hero who is shown carrying a club, a man of strength, a journeyer in the wild country and a killer of monsters. This is not out of keeping with Ayla. Nor was the Medea helm just a trite allusion. Medea, finding herself betrayed by Jason, who is preparing to marry the daughter of the king of Corinth, sends clothes (and maybe a crown, can't recall) to the king and the princess, tainted with her magic, that cause them to burn and horridly die when they receive them. That sort of fiery madness was in naming that. Or, if not specifically that one instance, then just the typical actions of Medea are associated with this. So, personally, I would say the reference flows exceedingly well, and I'm usually really picky on such matters.

These aren't allusions that one needs to force to make work. That's how I like allusions, in all my things. Allusions are ones of ideas and concepts, and not chronology. This isn't suppose to be the thing itself, but a thing 'like it'. Melchior did not bring presents to Jesus in CT. But that doesn't pose a problem? And you're probably giving people too much credit for knowing their myths these days, as it is. Personally, I'd probably have caught onto Nemean slower than one like Belthesar, or Prometheus. If they don't catch those ones right off, they won't catch Nemean. And for those who do... well... whatever. The thing is, we'd then have to remove half our names, espeically the ones I came up with. Erebos? That's Darkness in Greek. Kronian? A reference to the sickle of Kronos. Truesilver? To the Mithril of Tolkien. The list goes on.

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Re: The Amalgamated Weapons, Techs, Items, and Enemies Thread
« Reply #43 on: December 05, 2006, 07:53:28 pm »
Well, there's no issue on the allusion in itself, the issue is on its location in the context of the era. There's absolutely no other Greek reference in the Prehistoric era. While names from various cultures and languages can appear in each era, this is different in Prehistory: the names in this period are far more universal-sounding, because they're either common nouns made proper (Rainbow Shell, Tyran's Fortress, an animistic Earth in the Japanese version, etc.) or outright meaningless clusters of syllables (Ioka, Laruba, Nizbel, etc., meaningless for us at least). By inserting a Greek reference in the middle of all this, we're sort of breaking a harmony, we're shifting this universal atmosphere to something much more regionally identifiable. In addition to the already numerous Greek allusions put everywhere, this Greek presence in Prehistory would definitely turn the vast and multicultural Chrono world into a purely Hellenocentric world (this term probably doesn't exist, but you know what I mean).

Aside from this thematic issue, the pragmatic problem I mentioned is also hard to avoid. The hide was never mentioned in CT, and was never retrieved even though it would have been awesomely useful. A hide more resistant than the Rainbow Shell... that's quite something. The fact that this legendary and ultra-resistant lion is mentioned like, once in the entire series is also disturbing. This is really both a retcon and a plot-hole. We can come up with fixes, like saying this ultimate item was forbidden, that other one was forgotten, etc. In the end however, it will still appear awkward, especially because we're dealing with a fangame. We can't change or add huge things like that it the immediate past of the Chrono eras without it being hard to accept for the players (and one of the developer, ehe).

Daniel Krispin

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Re: The Amalgamated Weapons, Techs, Items, and Enemies Thread
« Reply #44 on: December 05, 2006, 08:52:44 pm »
Well, its existance as super-armour isn't my field - that was ZeaLitY's idea - but I'll still stand with its name being okay to the prehistoric era. Internally to the Chrono series, it's just a name. Nemean. It could be the name of a tribe, even... after all, we do have Iokans and Larubans. Or maybe its Ayla's name for lion. There are manifold possibilities internal to the game. Unless you take my real-world crossover theories into account which merges our history from 3000BC - 300AD into the Chrono world (which we are definitely not doing), Greece does not exist at all in any form. Thus, any allusion, regardless of the time, is out of place, as it's referring to something that is for all purposes extra-dimensional. Nemean, as it has no meaning in the Chrono context, is not out of place in Prehistoric times any more than any other name would be, any more than Ayla, or Azala, Ioka, or Laruba. The power of the allusion is the connotation it has, the sublevel to its meaning, which is seperate from its absolute meaning in the Chrono world. It is not the hide of the Nemean lion as it would be to the Greeks. But its association with that puts it on par, and adds depth. That's the use of allusion. As such, you can't really say it is out of place temporally, as 'Nemean' at this point HAS no place in the Chrono world. It only has a place in our world and, while it does indeed point to that, it merely does so in format, ie. this, too, is an impervious hide. It is not THE Nemean hide, but is of the universal archetype of 'Nemean' hide. Sort of like a chair. The chair I am sitting in, and the one you are sitting in, are not the same. Both, however, point back to the concept of chair, so if I say 'chair', you know exactly what I'm talking about, even if you've never seen the particular one I'm talking about. You might not know the exact look of it, but certain basic similarities exist (ie. it is for sitting) that are common to all chairs. It's the same thing with this. The item is not out of place because it is not the same thing as the Greek hide. It does, however, have the same basic similarities that point back to that universal idea of 'Nemean hide' (ie. impervious). I guess you could say 'it is a hide of impervious fashion' or, in other words, Nemean. Neman connotes that to us, and that's what an allusion works off of. Think about it, if we were to say there was a human tribe called the Nemeans in prehistory, or if we were to say Nemea is Ayla's name for 'lion', that would then reconcile it... but nonetheless, the allusion would remain, because its truth does not lie in it itself, but what it points to. In the same way, it cannot be critizised because innaccuracy in this case is a moot point. Of course, Aristotle would hate me for saying this - you're giving me an Aristotilian argument for literature, I think - but I'm countering with a more Platonic viewpoint. Make sense?

The thing also about what ZeaLitY did with the superarmour.... I don't think it's neccessarially bad. Games make use of contrivances all the time, especially games like CT. I don't think we should be shooting for literal accuracy in a thing like this. Thematic accuracy, perhaps, but bending technicalities was some of the charm in Trigger, I think. The End of Time? How the heck can they be walking around then? Doesn't really make sense logically, but doesn't matter to the point, anyway.